Simple question! (FR)

[Jetpipe.]

I very much appreciate your inputs guys!
Specially you from inside the airline!

Simply put, as I see it, Ryanair maybe has the doors closing but as long as I manage to get on that train it will be fast track on advancing my career.. A few years of struggling in debt yes, but after that things will probably be easier! Don't get me wrong, I won't say no to any job and I will continue my search.. To be honest I 'd love a prop-job for some years to gather valuable experience before I advance on the jets. I'm not in for the money (yet!) I just want to be proficient in what I do and enjoy my working and non working days (hopefully with some nice colleagues to!), then if my job can pay the bills too that would be just perfect! Too naive ain't I ?

[LS-4]

captainng,

I respect your view / experiences and understand that things can vary between different individuals and operators.

I think most (working) pilots I've spoken to about this have recommended the FI scheme while continuing to apply for airline jobs, especially those who are FIs or FEs themselves. A few have said that I should look to buy a TR, but I'm still a bit skeptical about that. The idea of contributing to such an employment policy makes me a bit uneasy at the moment, but that doesn't mean I'll never do it. If I should feel strongly enough about adapting in that way, so to speak, I might go through with it.

On a different note, I'm not a member of the "bigger is better" crowd. Some of my favourite companies operate mostly turboprops. Their TT requirements are well above my hours at the moment, though.

[captainng]

ls-4 why go to flight instructing and then looking for a job on a jet when you can go straight to the jet! sounds like adding a step that is not needed in the first place.
if you have no job by all means find any job that keeps you flying!!
but if you can get that jet job as the first then go for it i say!!

i dont think there are many other jobs on jets other than ryanair/easyjet ctc deal around at the moment for cadets.
if you get on a turboprop it seems to be a career staller at the moment as fr/ez only want cadet anyway!
good luck with the job hunting as i certainly wouldn't want to be in that situation in todays aviation market!

[LS-4]

Originally Posted by captainng

i dont think there are many other jobs on jets other than ryanair/easyjet ctc deal around at the moment for cadets.

No openings for fresh FOs at easyJet at the moment, as far as I know. I would appreciate it if you had anything interesting to share about that.

Originally Posted by captainng

if you get on a turboprop it seems to be a career staller at the moment as fr/ez only want cadet anyway!

Some of the companies I desire at the moment almost exclusively operate turboprops. I can add that I'm not talking about anyone based in Britain.

I don't feel a special need to fly the B737, but I won't turn down a good opportunity either. Ryanair is becoming an option. More sources (some independent, some not) are clearly positive about Ryanair's operational standards.

[LS-4]

I certainly understand and respect your standing, and I agree to some extent, but times may have changed a bit.

Originally Posted by eggc1vy3

Guys you could earn more being a plumber, taxi driver, window cleaner, chippy. All good jobs with valuable skills but you don't have to pay over £100k for the training. I'm not obviously suggesting you drop your licence and go for a trade (although many pilots have) but to put it into perspective some of these trades earn in excess of £100k in some areas - yes they do. You guys are then paying to earn less.

I've been working odd jobs since finishing school and more before that. I get bored out of my skull with it. There are some places one just doesn't belong over time.

Originally Posted by eggc1vy3

Take some advice, go instructing, fly for an air taxi company, work in ops or dispatch, anything to build your hours up. Get that first turbo prop or light jet job then move up to an airline when you have had some hours and experience under your belt.

FI course underway. I've applied for just about everything you've mentioned, still looking.

Again, at this point I'm not a member of the "big jets are all there is" movement. I think I'll be quite happy with lighter machines sporting grinders for propulsion.

[skyflyer737]

EGGC - I'm afraid your suggested career path is somewhat out of date and no longer feasible to the vast majority. A shame as I think your instructing / air taxi / turboprop route makes excellent pilots but in this economic climate there are very few instructing jobs and I've never even seen an ad for air taxi recruitment. The odd chap with good contacts might be lucky but 99% won't be. What else to do than pay for a rating with a loco?

Times have changed sadly and a job directly onto jets is the best option for most, otherwise their skills will decline and they will become unemployable as the months and years of job hunting pass by.

Simple supply & demand I'm afraid. Crazy as it sounds to pay £100k+ for a job, there are endless lists of people with the desire to do it.

[stormin norman]

And then there's the Ryanair Pension Scheme ...................

[LS-4]

skyflyer737,

I think your post makes some sense and that a lot of people would agree with you. It might seem that some line pilots who began working a good while ago lack some understanding of the situation currently faced by many fresh CPL(A) holders.

I understand the fact that wide acceptance of self-sponsorship and poor T&Cs add pressure on the rest of the industry, but I think this is going to continue unless it is countered by law somehow.

Then again things may vary from country to country. Language skills and the will and ability to relocate etc. can play a role. I get the impression that a good deal of the discussions in this section of the forum are centered on relatively big and familiar airlines. There are a bunch of smaller operators here and there as well.

[Jetpipe.]

EGGC, your post should be in every newspaper !!!

All of us newcomers start with the same dream but as you struggle moving towards it, you watch it being torn apart... You think of the past and if you 'd do it all over again and the answer is yes you would because you 'd still want that answer to the question, ''Will I succeed, can I do it, will I FLY?'' You would do it all over again because you 'd feel that no other job can fill your heart like being up there...

I knew when I started training that there was no shortage of pilots out there... but if I 'd be a good pilot, that would definitely make a difference... airlines would certainly want to have me I thought! What a fool I say today and aren't we a few?!

Being a pilot is easy, being a good pilot isn't but that's of no significance... only thing that counts is € and $ !! Airlines where proud of their pilots once, today they 're proud of their APs! As long as the AP flies error-free what do you need a good pilot for? Therefor standards have gone low and we have become too many... and the pool is growing! That's the heart of the problem!

Let's dance with the wolfs !!

[Jetpipe.]

I finally got an answer, I went through the selection and was offered a place in a springs TR course. All this time I was reviewing my options and I regrettably have to say that there aren't any other than this one for a lowtimer like me coming from a financially struggling country... I wish things weren't as they are in aviation nowadays and everybody could get a clear chance to prove what they re made of!

[megustalavida]

my advice: don´t do it!

study something in the meantime, get other qualifications and don´t get depended on a pilot job. On the same time be current with your licence.
Airlines are suffering, check & medicals are to be passed for years and then to work for such a outfit like Ryanair with so poor working conditions and treatment. Even if you have hours, the markets now to go are China and Middle East like Emmirates is the same like Ryanair just painted in golden colors.
It´s a spiral down, with no botton end.
I was also young, always wanted to become a pilot. I have worked hard for it.
But i never invested in paying what i considered airlines to pay for. I could not even afford it. Being sponsored from a bankrupt airlines maybe i was lucky, but even then, i cannot recommend this job to anyone anymore with good conscious.
We should make people aware: STOP paying for what airlines are supposed to pay!

[Bernoulli]

EGCC - I agree with your every word. The poor souls who elect to accept the shafting offered to them by Easyjet/Flexicrew/Ryanair in anticipation of a move some years later to a better employer are in for a rude awakening. Those employers won't be there for them any more. In the face of competition from Ryanair and Easyjet (whose low cost business model moves expenses onto their employees who appear to willingly accept this) these decent Companies will have either adopted the same practices or have gone bust.

These unthinking people are pulling the rug out from beneath their own feet.

The only possible solution is for them to act collectively to raise their own terms and conditions but they don't seem able to get their ducks in a row. Too busy dreaming about aeroplanes and too self-centred to organise themselves.

They just can't see it.

[SD.]

With all due respect 738driver, the job (and the behaviour of FR) is a different kettle of fish now - compared to 5 years ago. This poor soul will have a lot longer in the right hand seat, will be forced to be involved in a murky ltd company in IRE and FO hours are declining.

For those reasons, I wouldn't hand over €30k to East Midlands Training.

[megustalavida]

@ 737 jockey

People (i won´t even say Cpt with that lack of leadership) like you are the reason why our jobs are declining. Thinking that it is normal to pay for a TR is just stupid and the reason why our all T&C are falling down. Well maybe you think it is also normal to pay for you uniform, SIM, check and water on board.
You are more a soldier of the current market situation.

Return of Investment?
You just flew 5 years? One day you will have this FO on your right hand seat with a great financial burdens. And then the others to follow. In the meantime O´Leary will continue to shaft you from behind, and as you said, it is only business: Don´t expect your current conditions not to be changed, the "90ies" generations at least have been were working much longer in the proper airlines and stayed there much longer as you will be in your future. You just have a very poor long term thinking.
The root cause are selfish und self centered people like you. And the wrong people which are attracted in that postion, who would before never been able to enter this profession. Working in a bank would suit you more.

And the poor guy, having 30k more depth has to fly with you one day.
He will never see aviation at it was used to be. With great people to fly with, with the job at the hand and striving for excellence. That is sad. I hope for him with the little luck that one day he can move forward to a much better company than Ryanair and will never end up like you.

[Golf_Romeo]

Think you've made the correct decision, good luck. I think it's an excellent place to start and to get experience that you won't get elsewhere.

In 4/5 years time I think one of two things will have happened:

1) Market's picked up again, everyone is hiring. With your experience at FR you'll be at the front of the queue, or at least way ahead of those that have done dispatch for 4 years. Your destiny will be far more in your hands than if you have no experience, specially if you'd been out of training for a while.

2) More and more European airlines have disappeared leaving just Ryanair, easyjet and a handful of national carriers. Those not already in are shut out. Luckily if you've been at Ryanair all this time, you're doing alright.


Remember you got into this because you wanted to spend your days flying planes and getting paid for it. That's what you're getting. Yes it sounds wrong having to pay to get a job but it's more than just a job, it's your whole lifestyle. Right now not many airlines are giving you that opportunity, but Ryanair are. So go to Ryanair. You can sit around speculating or you can get out there grab it by the balls and go for it. Sounds like that's what you've done which I think was the wise choice.

Maybe if a few more of the old boys had had to pay £100,000 to get into it in the first place we'd have found out who really wants to fly. Some seem to be suggesting that paying the money shows you want it LESS!! People that were picked up and put on schemes knowing that if they didn't like it they could leave at any time with no financial implications are suggesting that those of us who have considered this investment and gone into it knowing that this is for life as we can't afford for it not to be don't want it as much. Doesn't make sense to me. That's why we get into it later and aren't flying across the Atlantic at 21 - these days we only go for it when we know it's definitely what we want to do with our careers.

Enjoy Ryanair, I think you'll love it.

[megustalavida]

Golf Romeo...
You must be kidding.
You really need a reality check. Wake up:
Paying 100.000 pound to pay for a pilot job is not normal. It´s just plane insane. How can this show motivation? Do we attract the very best for this job? I don´t think so. We as pilots need to make proper decisions, make a proper risk assesment, how risky is it to invest this amount of money and thereafter not finding a job? Now he sign for the TR, thinking there is no way of return.
Will the very best be attracted for the job or the one with the rich parents? The entry requirement should be based on suitability for the job and not how much you can afford to pay. If the majority of people would NOT do that, we would find a complete different job market now.
The problem is, it is too easy to qualify for the ATPL exams. And this is why the standards are dropping, the supply is just too much.
Pay to fly is pervers and there is NO way to justify this practice.
And in 5 years the market will not be easier, the airline you want to move maybe also will no exist.
This is you only post, you must be Michael O´Leary or one of clowns of Base Captain, promoting fuel league table. "Love" to fly for Ryain?
Have a look on the other threat, this link was posted there.
Good luck.


Reporter - Mayday Mayday - International version

[RTO]

Go Ryan or continue jobless?

Neither, get a real job instead, The fact that people pay ryanair for these things have forced other airlines to follow in the "race to the bottom" There are no decent airline jobs anymore, alternate education is highly advised.

[DontThink]

Get a degree, change field.

Or if you really want to fly, get an FI rating build some experience and find a good school to work for.

I was an FI for a long time and had fun/paid holidays/stable salary with an open end contract and a possible career path.

Then I was blinded by the shiny jet and I put myself and, even worst, my own family in a financial situation that I am trying to get out of daily.

I just feel bad for helping MOL destroying this industry.

Dont get me wrong, flying a 737 is fun when you forget who you are working for and at what conditions (i.e. during the last 15 miles of an approach), but you cannot refer to is a a job, more like a hobby.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Anyone that has to pay for their employment is just prostituting themselves. Any airline that requires you to pay for your employment is just running a whorehouse.