Strom McGinley and RYR
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Strom McGinley and RYR
Is signing a RYR contract with Strom McGinley really that much worse than signing it with Brookfield (I got this impression when i read through the thread here, on PPRUNE)?
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So are the two (Storm McGinley and Brookfield) basically the same? I have read a lot about Strom being worse (but no one seems to be able to clarify why) …
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And then, when the company graciously offers you the opportunity to become a full time employee on a Ryanair contract you will have to go for an interview (!) on one of your off days.
Yes, after working for Ryanair on a BRK contract for almost three years people who wanted full time contracts had to go for interviews.
Yes, after working for Ryanair on a BRK contract for almost three years people who wanted full time contracts had to go for interviews.
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How does this contract clause fit into being able to pay a mortgage? Mortages and loans require a minimum level of job security.....
"B. A minimum payment will not be made by the Contractor where the Company Representative is not available for duties for any reason."
"B. A minimum payment will not be made by the Contractor where the Company Representative is not available for duties for any reason."
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I just left Ryanair after many years because of the new contracts. Both the Brookfield and Storm contracts are the same in the end. Do not be fooled. You are exposing yourself and your family to great danger with either of these so called contracts. LTDs and pilots do not go together. Plus working for Ryanair brings along alot of other nasty surprises which are well covered here on other threads.
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There has been much talk of the 'liability' clauses both these contracts contain. Basically you bend it ...you buy it. Recent reports suggest a captain who broke the curfew at BVS was 'fined' €4000 by RYR and another captain 'fined' €4000 for leaving the battery switch on after shutdown. The implications on safety have been sacrificed for more profit as usual. 
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City Flyer,
Good article and hopefully an interesting legal precedent that can be used against companies (Ryanair with Brookfield/Storm McGinley and Easyjet with Flexicrew) that bring in 'employees' - but put them on an agency/temporary style contract in order to circumvent paying the 'going rate'...
Let's not forget the near total lack of employment rights, because you're technically NOT an employee... and people on such contracts wonder why/how they can be so badly treated...
Just Google "IR35"...
HM Revenue & Customs: IR35 - Countering Avoidance in the Provision of Personal Services
IR35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This part is of particular relevance to certain people...
HM Revenue & Customs:
"If you can answer ‘yes’ to most of the following questions, you would probably have been an employee of your client for the contract in question and therefore within the new rules.
Good article and hopefully an interesting legal precedent that can be used against companies (Ryanair with Brookfield/Storm McGinley and Easyjet with Flexicrew) that bring in 'employees' - but put them on an agency/temporary style contract in order to circumvent paying the 'going rate'...
Let's not forget the near total lack of employment rights, because you're technically NOT an employee... and people on such contracts wonder why/how they can be so badly treated...
Just Google "IR35"...
HM Revenue & Customs: IR35 - Countering Avoidance in the Provision of Personal Services
IR35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This part is of particular relevance to certain people...
HM Revenue & Customs:
"If you can answer ‘yes’ to most of the following questions, you would probably have been an employee of your client for the contract in question and therefore within the new rules.
- Do you work set hours, or a given number of hours a week or a month?
- Do you have to do the work yourself rather than hire someone else to do the work for you?
- Can someone tell you at any time what to do, when to work or how to do the work?
- Are you paid by the hour, week or month?
- Can you get overtime pay?
- Do you work at the premises of the person you work for, or at a place or places he or she decides?
- Do you generally work for one client at a time, rather than having a number of contracts?"
Last edited by Poose; 19th Jun 2012 at 12:16.
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I don't understand why a group of pilots, especially with IALPA help, have not engaged in a 'class action' to claim employment. It seems there's a lot of anger & frustration and being treated as an employee without any benefits. Well, do something about it. A class action should be very cheap for the individual and so let a judge decide; or perhaps the more sympathetic industrial tribunal. It seems a no brainer to win and it would blow the lid off the whole scam. Use the wingeing energy to change things. Surely 1 petite lap dancer hasn't got more balls than all those hunky macho rayban wearing jet jockeys?
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How unprofessional Samrice.... you work for Storm and you post this on a forum.........???? didnt know that this was a slanging match for agencies. Its a pilot forum not an agencies one where we have a go at you........ not you have a go at another agency. Weird
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Eh? Seems like a perfectly reasonable post. He's posted with his real name and outlined the main differences in the contract. The only thing he's going to get is about 800 direct CVs of people desperate for a job and willing to shell out money for the pleasure.
No slanging there, it's a public forum and anyone can post (and does) many of whom are not in fact pilots but work in or around the industry.
Quit trolling.
No slanging there, it's a public forum and anyone can post (and does) many of whom are not in fact pilots but work in or around the industry.
Quit trolling.
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Would RYR allow you to make a change from either one to the other before signing anything?
As I see it, without the need for a 30 hour guarantee and accepting an Irish LTD, the only difference for new cadets/FOs is €5 for every hour in the air.
If the contract is for 5 years, and assuming 800 hours pr year, the difference is €20.000.
Any reason why cadets are "given" either Storm McGinley or Brookfield, instead of a choise?
As I see it, without the need for a 30 hour guarantee and accepting an Irish LTD, the only difference for new cadets/FOs is €5 for every hour in the air.
If the contract is for 5 years, and assuming 800 hours pr year, the difference is €20.000.
Any reason why cadets are "given" either Storm McGinley or Brookfield, instead of a choise?
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Ermm disregard my last post then. Say you are a resident of Spain, how can you have an Irish Ltd company and then go and work say in a UK Base and pay Irish tax and social costs. Am I mssing a trick here. I thought you paid your taxes and social costs where you work............ or in your country of residence I am obviously missing something here can someone explain. ?
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There's an EU tax exception for pilots that says that they pay tax in their country of residence for earnings they make outside of that country. There are several exceptions to this that either allow or insist that taxes are paid in the country in which they earned it.
As far as I'm aware so long as you provide accurate details an EU resident can be a director of a company in any other EU country so long as they meet the criteria for that country.
What some people might consider doing is opening an offshore company in a tax haven, then a LTD company in Ireland and claim non resident status in their own country and then cross bill. All perfectly legal but some countries are trying to remove this loophole.
As far as I'm aware so long as you provide accurate details an EU resident can be a director of a company in any other EU country so long as they meet the criteria for that country.
What some people might consider doing is opening an offshore company in a tax haven, then a LTD company in Ireland and claim non resident status in their own country and then cross bill. All perfectly legal but some countries are trying to remove this loophole.
Last edited by Dan the weegie; 20th Jun 2012 at 12:12.
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Dan the weegie,
let's put a couple of things straight:
- there is no EU wide law on flight crew tax
- there is an EU law now about social security (you pay where you are based according to annex III of EU OPS (basically your airline must give you a base and that's where you are liable)
- there are a set of double taxation treaties between countries (there is one between each set of 2 countries and they are all very similar) and what they basically state is that you shouldn't be paying tax twice but just once, they then give you guidelines on where you should be liable to pay tax.
-LTD's and self employment are very often NOT compatible with national legislation when it comes to piloting an aircraft because it is simply a way for the AIRLINE to avoid tax and social obligations towards its workers.
-FR has always claimed that they don't have any base nor permanent estabilishment outside of Ireland and therefore they only apply the Irish rules but this scam is coming to an end and several investigations are ongoing across the EU to prove them wrong.
What should the poor pilot do then?Just join a ECA pilot association,talk to a lawyer and wait for further developments possibly without setting up dodgy things offshore or Malta.....
let's put a couple of things straight:
- there is no EU wide law on flight crew tax
- there is an EU law now about social security (you pay where you are based according to annex III of EU OPS (basically your airline must give you a base and that's where you are liable)
- there are a set of double taxation treaties between countries (there is one between each set of 2 countries and they are all very similar) and what they basically state is that you shouldn't be paying tax twice but just once, they then give you guidelines on where you should be liable to pay tax.
-LTD's and self employment are very often NOT compatible with national legislation when it comes to piloting an aircraft because it is simply a way for the AIRLINE to avoid tax and social obligations towards its workers.
-FR has always claimed that they don't have any base nor permanent estabilishment outside of Ireland and therefore they only apply the Irish rules but this scam is coming to an end and several investigations are ongoing across the EU to prove them wrong.
What should the poor pilot do then?Just join a ECA pilot association,talk to a lawyer and wait for further developments possibly without setting up dodgy things offshore or Malta.....
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Sorry, I stand corrected, you're quite right about the double taxation treaties. I had thought it was EU wide but only in that most countries in the EU have double taxation treaties.
As for setting up offshore companies, it's not what I do as I pay tax in the UK for my earnings but I know others that do, it's legal if you meet the criteria and I don't see why not.
As for setting up offshore companies, it's not what I do as I pay tax in the UK for my earnings but I know others that do, it's legal if you meet the criteria and I don't see why not.
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b738 driver:
Im a cadet starting soon.
My contract is with Storm, the ltd in Ireland. I have a couple of friends starting two weeks later with Brookfield. It appears that the difference is €5 per hour, but Storm has a 30 hour per month roster guarantee.
There might be other differences as well, but unless the Brookfield guys are getting rostered far less than 360 hours per year, it looks like I have been given a contract that is worth alot less.
Im a cadet starting soon.
My contract is with Storm, the ltd in Ireland. I have a couple of friends starting two weeks later with Brookfield. It appears that the difference is €5 per hour, but Storm has a 30 hour per month roster guarantee.
There might be other differences as well, but unless the Brookfield guys are getting rostered far less than 360 hours per year, it looks like I have been given a contract that is worth alot less.
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Sorry for bringing this thread up again but I am exploring the option of opening a Ltd company in another EU country rather than in Ireland, so was wondering if anyone knows of any advisers that I could approach regarding that. Is there such a thing as European tax advice? Any suggestions welcome
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Brookfields vs Storm Contracts
I have heard a rumour that there are 2 contracts you can be put on if you get into Ryanair as an FO... What is the difference between them? and how is it decided who is on what contract?
Last edited by Gpro; 30th Dec 2012 at 21:26. Reason: Spelling.
