BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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Out of interest, why was the decision over the purchase of bmi extended from the 16th March to this Friday? Was this surrounding the EU's requirement for IAG to surrender a greater share of the proceeds ie the slots. I understand IAG have offered an additional 14, which the EU suggest is not likely to be enough. Any more concessions and IAG state that there is little economic viability left in the purchase due to the losses that bmi currently operate at. Does anybody else think that if there can't be some sort of agreement here then IAG will back away and Lufthansa will wash their hands off the whole affair? It's unlikely to come to that, right?
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Quote "It's unlikely to come to that, right?" - Wrong!! The EC's decison on other airlines proposed mergers/take-overs in the past is not a pretty one and Lufty's profits are hurting.
Perhaps IAG could revert to the stand alone option without EC interference but otherwise curtians I think.
Perhaps IAG could revert to the stand alone option without EC interference but otherwise curtians I think.
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Does anybody else think that if there can't be some sort of agreement here then IAG will back away and Lufthansa will wash their hands off the whole affair? It's unlikely to come to that, right?
Perhaps IAG could revert to the stand alone option without EC interference but otherwise curtians I think.
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[QUOTE]The BAcc wishful thinking that they can 'stitch-up' the pilots coming from BMI pre-merger will fall foul of their expectations once the deal is approved. /QUOTE]
Stitch-up? Really? If you read the balpa general forum the BAcc chairman has made it clear their single motivation is to find a solution that is as fair as possible for every pilot involved and see's no one group disadvantaged. I admit this will be nigh-on impossible for such a large group of pilots each with differing aspirations and their own idea of "fairness", but the belief displayed by some Bmi folk that a fair solution is they stroll into BA with their Bmi d.o.j dictating everything, while riding rough-shod over many hundreds of other pilots is not helping the situation. This is where the BAcc are keen to align misconception with the reality of TUPE. A fair solution lies in-between full d.o.j and the bottom of the BA msl.
The urgency being displayed that you seem to find "suspicious" is down to the belief that any further delay/complication will give rise to the very real prospect of job losses. My sympathy lies with the Bmir and Baby pilots and crew who must be really enjoying watching some of their mainline colleagues, heads firmly entrenched in sand, argue about which cakes from the BA table they feel their seniority entitles them to.
Stitch-up? Really? If you read the balpa general forum the BAcc chairman has made it clear their single motivation is to find a solution that is as fair as possible for every pilot involved and see's no one group disadvantaged. I admit this will be nigh-on impossible for such a large group of pilots each with differing aspirations and their own idea of "fairness", but the belief displayed by some Bmi folk that a fair solution is they stroll into BA with their Bmi d.o.j dictating everything, while riding rough-shod over many hundreds of other pilots is not helping the situation. This is where the BAcc are keen to align misconception with the reality of TUPE. A fair solution lies in-between full d.o.j and the bottom of the BA msl.
The urgency being displayed that you seem to find "suspicious" is down to the belief that any further delay/complication will give rise to the very real prospect of job losses. My sympathy lies with the Bmir and Baby pilots and crew who must be really enjoying watching some of their mainline colleagues, heads firmly entrenched in sand, argue about which cakes from the BA table they feel their seniority entitles them to.
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Surely if stand alone, IAG would own BMI just as Lufthansa did and there should be no problem as it would just be an ownership change, but hopefully run in a different way! After all this did appear to be the option for IAG until WW persuaded IAG that BA/BMI integration would be a better way of doing things - as I understand it anyway.
The trouble is it would seem Lufthansa is losing whatever patience it had with BMI and would now choose the speediest option to cut the losses if no approval.
I hope Wolfgang has got a letter stating Lufthansa's intentions prepared for next Monday morning at the latest if this does not get past the EC, as rumours will be rife and nerves very frayed I'm sure.
The trouble is it would seem Lufthansa is losing whatever patience it had with BMI and would now choose the speediest option to cut the losses if no approval.
I hope Wolfgang has got a letter stating Lufthansa's intentions prepared for next Monday morning at the latest if this does not get past the EC, as rumours will be rife and nerves very frayed I'm sure.
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BitMoreRightRudder - The tone of your post is most unsavoury indeed. What are you worried about? If you were in the BMI camp would you not want a decent deal for your experience in aviation. We are not looking to ride "roughshod" over any BA pilot and I don't see DOJ doing that - please explain your fears in a balanced informative fashion instead of the mud slinging.
You guys were presented with 2 evils to vote on by your company, you voted for integration so bring it on! You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. Frankly I find it absurd that pilots of another company are looking to control our destiny. I am sure in the end it will be your management that will decide and that decision I WILL respect.
P.S. I do however think it's fair to have a lengthy fleet bid freeze so as not to "disadvantage any BA F/O". especially if long haul is their aspiration.
You guys were presented with 2 evils to vote on by your company, you voted for integration so bring it on! You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. Frankly I find it absurd that pilots of another company are looking to control our destiny. I am sure in the end it will be your management that will decide and that decision I WILL respect.
P.S. I do however think it's fair to have a lengthy fleet bid freeze so as not to "disadvantage any BA F/O". especially if long haul is their aspiration.
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Perhaps if the BACC (and BALPA) spent less time talking about degrees of disadvantage and more time explaining the advantages of a merger and how they could shared equitably among the combined pilot group, the debate would be a little more constructive.
Who thinks 98.5% to 1.5% is a fair way to share the spoils?
Who thinks 98.5% to 1.5% is a fair way to share the spoils?
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I'm sorry to say it but it looks more and more doubtful anyone from bmi will be sharing any spoils. As an ex bmi bod myself now on the other bus, so to speak, it saddens me that this could happen as i have fond memories of flying with my former colleagues there. However, arguing about what bidlines bmi guys will get should be the least of their worries. Food on the table would be my biggest concern.
Even at my place on the BA juniority list, I bid for what I want and have only had one blindline since joining. Reserve months are another thing. But being junior on the Airbus ain't so bad! Good luck y'all!
Even at my place on the BA juniority list, I bid for what I want and have only had one blindline since joining. Reserve months are another thing. But being junior on the Airbus ain't so bad! Good luck y'all!
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I'm sorry, but BMI is an A320 operation with a tiny A330 section. It's also a financial disaster. If ex-BMI pilots get to maintain their current pay structure, keep their commands and have 'dead man's shoes' access to commands previously held by BMI pilots, then your T&Cs haven't worsened. The loss of the minimal amount of A330 flying can be offset by the fact that your new company has a future. Hopefully you will also have a decent bidding system, roster stability and a huge staff travel network.
I've heard BMI pilots argue 'our slots will be used for longhaul so we should get to fly longhaul'.
The slots do not belong to BMI pilots. BA are buying those slots, BMI is just part of the deal. The slots are being bought with profits which BA pilots (through increased productivity and paycuts) helped make. If you want to allocate ownership of the slots to a pilot group, then they will belong to BA pilots.
The notion that an engagement freeze negates the negative affect of a DOJ merger on BA pilots is also unfounded. From the point the freeze ends, you would have access to fleets/seats/lines of work ahead of pilots who have already served many years in BA. I don't think you'll find many non-BMI pilots who feel this would be reasonable.
If ex-BMI pilots want to enjoy the vast longhaul network the BA has to offer, they'll have to join the back of the queue like everyone else.
I appreciate that this is very blunt and I'm sure some will 'find the tone unsavoury' but there's no point in sugar coating it. I wish all BMI pilots the very best, but to expect your service in a borderline-bankrupt shorthaul airline to allow you leapfrog pilots in the company that is buying you is entirely unreasonable.
I've heard BMI pilots argue 'our slots will be used for longhaul so we should get to fly longhaul'.
The slots do not belong to BMI pilots. BA are buying those slots, BMI is just part of the deal. The slots are being bought with profits which BA pilots (through increased productivity and paycuts) helped make. If you want to allocate ownership of the slots to a pilot group, then they will belong to BA pilots.
The notion that an engagement freeze negates the negative affect of a DOJ merger on BA pilots is also unfounded. From the point the freeze ends, you would have access to fleets/seats/lines of work ahead of pilots who have already served many years in BA. I don't think you'll find many non-BMI pilots who feel this would be reasonable.
If ex-BMI pilots want to enjoy the vast longhaul network the BA has to offer, they'll have to join the back of the queue like everyone else.
I appreciate that this is very blunt and I'm sure some will 'find the tone unsavoury' but there's no point in sugar coating it. I wish all BMI pilots the very best, but to expect your service in a borderline-bankrupt shorthaul airline to allow you leapfrog pilots in the company that is buying you is entirely unreasonable.
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I wish all BMI pilots the very best, but to expect your service in a borderline-bankrupt shorthaul airline to allow you leapfrog pilots in the company that is buying you is entirely unreasonable.
I've heard BMI pilots argue 'our slots will be used for longhaul so we should get to fly longhaul'.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 28th Mar 2012 at 14:16.
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Please spare us all the "food for though", or "food on the table" quotes. Bloody unimaginative and becoming frankly, quite boring.
We seem to have the same boring merry go round here as on the BALPA General forum, and no doubt the same contributors.
Friday is not to long to wait, although some of you do appear to love the sound of your own voices and will no doubt get your posting numbers up by then.
Before anyone says it, I'm out of here for another couple of years!
We seem to have the same boring merry go round here as on the BALPA General forum, and no doubt the same contributors.
Friday is not to long to wait, although some of you do appear to love the sound of your own voices and will no doubt get your posting numbers up by then.
Before anyone says it, I'm out of here for another couple of years!
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I find it hard to believe any bmi pilot with half a head would be say this now. I should believe their thoughts concern the preservation of income, not on what f'in aircraft they get to fly and to where.
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I'm assuming you haven't been reading the BALPA general froum then.
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Is there not wood to be seen for the trees here? There is no deal yet? No terms of any deal have been published?
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EU's Almunia: mulling new IAG concessions for bmi
Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:23pm BST
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - EU regulators are assessing extra concessions offered by British Airways owner IAG (ICAG.L) to gain approval for its bid to buy Lufthansa's (LHAG.DE) British unit bmi, after initial proposals fell short, the EU's antitrust chief said on Wednesday.
IAG wants to buy bmi to boost its share of runway slots at London's Heathrow airport to about 52 percent from 43 percent, allowing it to launch lucrative new long-haul routes.
EU Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said IAG submitted additional concessions on Tuesday, on top of others offered earlier this month.
"My services are analysing these. I have a meeting with the legal services and the chief economic team this afternoon. The opinion of the stakeholders consulted was negative, we take this very seriously," Almunia told a news conference.
He was referring to comments from IAG rivals and consumers during a market test of IAG's proposals.
"I very much hope these additional proposals will change our assessment," he said.
Two people familiar with the matter said IAG had initially offered to cede 10 slots for some domestic and non-domestic routes at Heathrow but has now increased the number to 14.
The Commission is due to decide by Friday whether to clear the deal or open an in-depth investigation that could take up to four months.
Rival and failed bmi bidder Virgin Atlantic VA.UL has called on antitrust regulators to block the deal, saying it would harm competition and push up prices.
Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:23pm BST
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - EU regulators are assessing extra concessions offered by British Airways owner IAG (ICAG.L) to gain approval for its bid to buy Lufthansa's (LHAG.DE) British unit bmi, after initial proposals fell short, the EU's antitrust chief said on Wednesday.
IAG wants to buy bmi to boost its share of runway slots at London's Heathrow airport to about 52 percent from 43 percent, allowing it to launch lucrative new long-haul routes.
EU Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said IAG submitted additional concessions on Tuesday, on top of others offered earlier this month.
"My services are analysing these. I have a meeting with the legal services and the chief economic team this afternoon. The opinion of the stakeholders consulted was negative, we take this very seriously," Almunia told a news conference.
He was referring to comments from IAG rivals and consumers during a market test of IAG's proposals.
"I very much hope these additional proposals will change our assessment," he said.
Two people familiar with the matter said IAG had initially offered to cede 10 slots for some domestic and non-domestic routes at Heathrow but has now increased the number to 14.
The Commission is due to decide by Friday whether to clear the deal or open an in-depth investigation that could take up to four months.
Rival and failed bmi bidder Virgin Atlantic VA.UL has called on antitrust regulators to block the deal, saying it would harm competition and push up prices.
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Dear god...
What an absolute load of tosh. If this deal doesn't go through, then bmi will cease to exist. That's pretty obvious given the losses and lack of support from Lufty.
This is total nonsense.
What an absolute load of tosh. If this deal doesn't go through, then bmi will cease to exist. That's pretty obvious given the losses and lack of support from Lufty.
This is total nonsense.
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MrBenip
I'm not worried about anything thanks, quite happy in BA and looking forward to the Bmi guys (hopefully) joining in due course. Which of my comments do you find unsavoury? That I don't think you should join with your Bmi d.o.j fully intact? Like I said the fair solution lies in the middle.
[QUOTE]We are not looking to ride "roughshod" over any BA pilot and I don't see DOJ doing that/QUOTE]
If you really don't see the problem in each Bmi pilot bringing their d.o.j with them then it is pointless discussing this any further. There are several thousand of your future colleagues in disagreement with you on this inevitable sore-point.
As you said, the management will decide. I hope the solution is as fair as possible for everyone, including the other pilots within the Bmi group.
[QUOTE]You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. /QUOTE]
True, and I'm not going to claim for one moment that this was some act of altruism, but I would hope any Bmi pilot would feel they are better off as part of BA mainline than a low cost off-shoot? If not then you clearly haven't worked for a loco!
I'm not worried about anything thanks, quite happy in BA and looking forward to the Bmi guys (hopefully) joining in due course. Which of my comments do you find unsavoury? That I don't think you should join with your Bmi d.o.j fully intact? Like I said the fair solution lies in the middle.
[QUOTE]We are not looking to ride "roughshod" over any BA pilot and I don't see DOJ doing that/QUOTE]
If you really don't see the problem in each Bmi pilot bringing their d.o.j with them then it is pointless discussing this any further. There are several thousand of your future colleagues in disagreement with you on this inevitable sore-point.
As you said, the management will decide. I hope the solution is as fair as possible for everyone, including the other pilots within the Bmi group.
[QUOTE]You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. /QUOTE]
True, and I'm not going to claim for one moment that this was some act of altruism, but I would hope any Bmi pilot would feel they are better off as part of BA mainline than a low cost off-shoot? If not then you clearly haven't worked for a loco!
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What an absolute load of tosh.
Yes, we are discussing the details of a take-over which may not happen, in which case the discussion is moot.
But there is a distinct possibility that it will happen, in which case the discussion will become very relevant. There are two groups of pilots that have very differing views on how a (reasonably likely) integration should take place. Is it a crime to discuss the potential mechanics of such an integration before we are certain it's going to take place??