So you want to be an airline pilot for China?
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So you want to be an airline pilot for China?
Expat flying in China $575K in 3 years tax free.(perspective)
Interesting perspective from an American pilot flying for a Chinese
airline in China.
------------ --------- --------
I'm the 1%! ....and I pay less taxes than Mitt!
Yes its true. You can make oodles of money here in China. I as a
E190 driver make more than any widebody captain in the US, and
I have over 18 weeks paid holiday a year plus normal days off.
But there is a natural economy to this and its not the gleaming diamond
you think. Your vision is of your life now, today, as it is, with all its
comforts, cleanliness, proximity to friends and family, in a system you are
familiar with, where everyone speaks your language and understands your
culture.
This is my second contract overseas and I can tell you why we make this
kind of money.
We have less job security and no seniority list. If there is any hiccup
we are the first to go. We are the outsiders and the locals always remain.
We have no pension. This is not a permanent gig. There are some longer
term contracts but the company has no interest in keeping us on payroll any
longer than necessary.
Kids pee on the street 10 meters from a bathroom, people spit everywhere,
I see have seen people laying a nice brown heap on the sidewalk. I live in
a country that not only has cornered the market on plastic toy exports but
all the super infectious germs resistant to antibiotics. A place that
routinely is polluted so heavily that you can stare directly at the sun
without squinting... ..if you can see the sun. A place where purple industrial
waste lays meters from farmland. An economy so self driven that it
mirrors Dante's Inferno's passage where no one can escape because everyone pulls each other down to get ahead.
A place where there are three kinds of alcohol. Fake, not so fake, and
almost real. An underground that reuses cooking oil into infinity and buys
bottles from authentic international places to re-bottle them with fake
hooch. Unless you pay 3x what it costs normally you are not really drinking
alcohol and even then that is not a guarantee.
The chemicals in everything you eat is life shortening. A country where
just the simple task of getting to Facebook requires special "tunnel"
program to circumvent the great firewall of China. Initially for 2-3 months you will heave all the colours of the rainbow until you are used to the
bacterias of the East. Cleanliness is next to Godliness and most Chinese don't
believe in God so they don't believe in Ajax either. One rag to rule them
all cleans your bed, your floor, your toilet, your dishes.....in that
order. The best overnight hotels are in comparison with the worst ones you
have ever stayed back home.
There is bare minimum communication. Almost no one outside of Shanghai
and Beijing speaks even broken English. Hong Kong does not count because
lets face it....that's not Mainland China. Even fewer people read
English. None of my ground crew speak English. Sure you can get the sucky
sucky but there is a target on your back for you passport and your money. The
first questions asked are...Are you single, do you have children, do you
want children, where do you work, how big is your house, how much money do you make. Really, after what is your name these questions are the immediate follow up.
I have a 3 man cockpit in an E190 to keep me going through to 16 hours or
more every day. I get holidays but even when I am off half the month I
am burning 80 or more flying hours in two weeks. There is no 30/7 rule
here only 100/month. Routinely the pilots time out at 1000 hours per year.
The delays in summer mimic EWR. The ATC outside of Shanghai and Beijing
barely speaks English and on runway 27 it is normal to be flying a 090
heading, off any charted approach on vectors, and have the controller
say..."cleared for the approach". You are ATC. My ICAO English examiner could not understand what I was saying.
Your F/Os while smart are 200 hour wonder pilots. And when I mean 200
hours I mean they just checked out and this is their first jet airplane. The
last thing they flew was a C421 for 40 hours. In my initial sim the F/O
who didn't speak English did not give a call about my speed during takeoff
roll. The sim tech put in a windshear and airspeed had stagnated and I had
already transitioned to outside reference before V1 above 100 knts. The
F/O said nothing. As we overrun I shoot a glare to the F/O and he says
something in Chinese. The translator says "He says he is sorry he never saw
this situation before"
Your FOM makes no sense-----Its all Chinglish... ..
"The regulation of using checklist is the valuable experience of what had
happened before with high cost and scientific treasures summarized from
the bloody accident. The operation of checklist is used to standard
behavior, strict operation, detailed procedure, and it is the valuable
treasures of preventing mistakes and important tool of assuring flight
safety."
The checkrides are old school. Multiple failures. I've had my RAT out
single engine with a multiple hydraulic, screen failure, anti ice failure,
decompression, Electrical malfunction all at once with an F/O who does not
speak English. I've flown V1 cuts IN THE AIRPLANE to 500 ft circling
patterns with a hood. Engine failures at 400ft and securing the engine by
1000ft is challenging and can be done but not when you need a translator to get it done. You make your own procedure and get it done by 1000FT. People
add weight to takeoff performance when clearly the English says SUB or
Subtract. But they don't know English.
Line Check Airmen can be old school military to completely not knowing a
damn thing about the SOP. There are good pilots but few who can fly or
know SOP.
The medicals are extremely difficult overseas. Everything from balance
tests, blood tests of more than 45 criteria from white blood cell counts to
blood sugar levels. Vision, periphery, depth, puffer, grip tests, EKG,
EEG, brain scans, ultrasounds, reflex, ears nose throat tests, and many other
probes. Half the people don't make it past the medical.
Many people leave after the first few days unable to cope with the culture
shock. This is not Hong Kong or Shanghai. This is Mainland China where
people smoke in hospitals and there is no such thing as pedestrian right of
way....even on the sidewalks.
Most importantly you should never bring your kids here unless you
appreciate them eating arsenic. The pollution is terrible. It is beyond
terrible. Its hazardous. The US Embassy advises no to go out side for any
period of time many days of the year in my city. Where the distributors know
that imported food is in demand they counterfeit everything and even that
imported Sunkist label is a knock off. Marriages crumble with the
distance, children are seen twice a year and those who do commute back and forth age so quickly you encourage them to double up on life insurance.
Expats drink a lot to deaden the loneliness and pain. I've seen people
who didn't drink put away a 5th a week. There is no Meetup group or speed dating. This is make your own a la carte.
This is just the tip of the iceberg and I have mentioned almost nothing
about the real cultural differences.
It could work out for you. You could marry that stripper and everything
will work out. But the odds are you are looking at a disaster on your
hands and that my friends is why I make more than the most senior Delta captain who comes home to his family every week.
China does not have the experienced captains that take 10 years of training
to mold out here. And in all Asian countries its about 10 years. With
foriegners reluctant to move here because of all these and other
difficulties I am a drop of water in a desert.
Maybe that's why everyone called me a drip when I was younger
Interesting perspective from an American pilot flying for a Chinese
airline in China.
------------ --------- --------
I'm the 1%! ....and I pay less taxes than Mitt!
Yes its true. You can make oodles of money here in China. I as a
E190 driver make more than any widebody captain in the US, and
I have over 18 weeks paid holiday a year plus normal days off.
But there is a natural economy to this and its not the gleaming diamond
you think. Your vision is of your life now, today, as it is, with all its
comforts, cleanliness, proximity to friends and family, in a system you are
familiar with, where everyone speaks your language and understands your
culture.
This is my second contract overseas and I can tell you why we make this
kind of money.
We have less job security and no seniority list. If there is any hiccup
we are the first to go. We are the outsiders and the locals always remain.
We have no pension. This is not a permanent gig. There are some longer
term contracts but the company has no interest in keeping us on payroll any
longer than necessary.
Kids pee on the street 10 meters from a bathroom, people spit everywhere,
I see have seen people laying a nice brown heap on the sidewalk. I live in
a country that not only has cornered the market on plastic toy exports but
all the super infectious germs resistant to antibiotics. A place that
routinely is polluted so heavily that you can stare directly at the sun
without squinting... ..if you can see the sun. A place where purple industrial
waste lays meters from farmland. An economy so self driven that it
mirrors Dante's Inferno's passage where no one can escape because everyone pulls each other down to get ahead.
A place where there are three kinds of alcohol. Fake, not so fake, and
almost real. An underground that reuses cooking oil into infinity and buys
bottles from authentic international places to re-bottle them with fake
hooch. Unless you pay 3x what it costs normally you are not really drinking
alcohol and even then that is not a guarantee.
The chemicals in everything you eat is life shortening. A country where
just the simple task of getting to Facebook requires special "tunnel"
program to circumvent the great firewall of China. Initially for 2-3 months you will heave all the colours of the rainbow until you are used to the
bacterias of the East. Cleanliness is next to Godliness and most Chinese don't
believe in God so they don't believe in Ajax either. One rag to rule them
all cleans your bed, your floor, your toilet, your dishes.....in that
order. The best overnight hotels are in comparison with the worst ones you
have ever stayed back home.
There is bare minimum communication. Almost no one outside of Shanghai
and Beijing speaks even broken English. Hong Kong does not count because
lets face it....that's not Mainland China. Even fewer people read
English. None of my ground crew speak English. Sure you can get the sucky
sucky but there is a target on your back for you passport and your money. The
first questions asked are...Are you single, do you have children, do you
want children, where do you work, how big is your house, how much money do you make. Really, after what is your name these questions are the immediate follow up.
I have a 3 man cockpit in an E190 to keep me going through to 16 hours or
more every day. I get holidays but even when I am off half the month I
am burning 80 or more flying hours in two weeks. There is no 30/7 rule
here only 100/month. Routinely the pilots time out at 1000 hours per year.
The delays in summer mimic EWR. The ATC outside of Shanghai and Beijing
barely speaks English and on runway 27 it is normal to be flying a 090
heading, off any charted approach on vectors, and have the controller
say..."cleared for the approach". You are ATC. My ICAO English examiner could not understand what I was saying.
Your F/Os while smart are 200 hour wonder pilots. And when I mean 200
hours I mean they just checked out and this is their first jet airplane. The
last thing they flew was a C421 for 40 hours. In my initial sim the F/O
who didn't speak English did not give a call about my speed during takeoff
roll. The sim tech put in a windshear and airspeed had stagnated and I had
already transitioned to outside reference before V1 above 100 knts. The
F/O said nothing. As we overrun I shoot a glare to the F/O and he says
something in Chinese. The translator says "He says he is sorry he never saw
this situation before"
Your FOM makes no sense-----Its all Chinglish... ..
"The regulation of using checklist is the valuable experience of what had
happened before with high cost and scientific treasures summarized from
the bloody accident. The operation of checklist is used to standard
behavior, strict operation, detailed procedure, and it is the valuable
treasures of preventing mistakes and important tool of assuring flight
safety."
The checkrides are old school. Multiple failures. I've had my RAT out
single engine with a multiple hydraulic, screen failure, anti ice failure,
decompression, Electrical malfunction all at once with an F/O who does not
speak English. I've flown V1 cuts IN THE AIRPLANE to 500 ft circling
patterns with a hood. Engine failures at 400ft and securing the engine by
1000ft is challenging and can be done but not when you need a translator to get it done. You make your own procedure and get it done by 1000FT. People
add weight to takeoff performance when clearly the English says SUB or
Subtract. But they don't know English.
Line Check Airmen can be old school military to completely not knowing a
damn thing about the SOP. There are good pilots but few who can fly or
know SOP.
The medicals are extremely difficult overseas. Everything from balance
tests, blood tests of more than 45 criteria from white blood cell counts to
blood sugar levels. Vision, periphery, depth, puffer, grip tests, EKG,
EEG, brain scans, ultrasounds, reflex, ears nose throat tests, and many other
probes. Half the people don't make it past the medical.
Many people leave after the first few days unable to cope with the culture
shock. This is not Hong Kong or Shanghai. This is Mainland China where
people smoke in hospitals and there is no such thing as pedestrian right of
way....even on the sidewalks.
Most importantly you should never bring your kids here unless you
appreciate them eating arsenic. The pollution is terrible. It is beyond
terrible. Its hazardous. The US Embassy advises no to go out side for any
period of time many days of the year in my city. Where the distributors know
that imported food is in demand they counterfeit everything and even that
imported Sunkist label is a knock off. Marriages crumble with the
distance, children are seen twice a year and those who do commute back and forth age so quickly you encourage them to double up on life insurance.
Expats drink a lot to deaden the loneliness and pain. I've seen people
who didn't drink put away a 5th a week. There is no Meetup group or speed dating. This is make your own a la carte.
This is just the tip of the iceberg and I have mentioned almost nothing
about the real cultural differences.
It could work out for you. You could marry that stripper and everything
will work out. But the odds are you are looking at a disaster on your
hands and that my friends is why I make more than the most senior Delta captain who comes home to his family every week.
China does not have the experienced captains that take 10 years of training
to mold out here. And in all Asian countries its about 10 years. With
foriegners reluctant to move here because of all these and other
difficulties I am a drop of water in a desert.
Maybe that's why everyone called me a drip when I was younger
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Is this you or is it myself?
C46r,
Substitute Saudi Arabia for China and change just a few other words and I think I probably wrote this in 1979 or so when I was flying for Saudia. The more things change, the more they stay the same applies here it would seem.
Substitute Saudi Arabia for China and change just a few other words and I think I probably wrote this in 1979 or so when I was flying for Saudia. The more things change, the more they stay the same applies here it would seem.
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This is hardly news!
C46r I'm sorry but I'm still not really seeing the problem.
if I'm right what you are basically saying is that China isn't the same as home. well of course it isn't that's why they have to pay you more money to be there! Otherwise why on earth would you leave home to be there?
I hardly think that it takes rose tinted spectacles to enlighten most of us as to the reality of expat life in the far east or anywhere else to be honest.
I have been a expat in Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. none of which were home but all of which were better than being unemployed at home or worse trying to live on the same salary as a McDonalds employee at home.
When I talk to most of my collegaues here in the sandpit one thing is common Expat life is sometimes a lifestyle choice but mostly is the only real choice that most of us have. I personally would take Emirates over BA any day of the week but I am the minority. I find the quality of life in Dubai far better than I could ever have in UK, career path is better, airlines are better, society is better, schools are excellent, family is happier, etc etc and to boot everyone speaks English!
none of this is the case in China but you chose to take China over the Middle East. I do not think many pilots out there think that China is a 'gleaming diamond' more that you go there take the money and are happy to provide a life for the family or stay home and have a mediocre life. That is the life that results from supply and demand.
Yes there are pay issues, language issues, personality and cultural issues. the weather is an issue and disease, health, hygiene, etc are not on a par to home but I for one prefer to take the money and be happy to provide my family with what they deserve for having put up with my career to date.
Those who want to stay home, great less competition for me and keeps my pay up!
if I'm right what you are basically saying is that China isn't the same as home. well of course it isn't that's why they have to pay you more money to be there! Otherwise why on earth would you leave home to be there?
I hardly think that it takes rose tinted spectacles to enlighten most of us as to the reality of expat life in the far east or anywhere else to be honest.
I have been a expat in Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. none of which were home but all of which were better than being unemployed at home or worse trying to live on the same salary as a McDonalds employee at home.
When I talk to most of my collegaues here in the sandpit one thing is common Expat life is sometimes a lifestyle choice but mostly is the only real choice that most of us have. I personally would take Emirates over BA any day of the week but I am the minority. I find the quality of life in Dubai far better than I could ever have in UK, career path is better, airlines are better, society is better, schools are excellent, family is happier, etc etc and to boot everyone speaks English!
none of this is the case in China but you chose to take China over the Middle East. I do not think many pilots out there think that China is a 'gleaming diamond' more that you go there take the money and are happy to provide a life for the family or stay home and have a mediocre life. That is the life that results from supply and demand.
Yes there are pay issues, language issues, personality and cultural issues. the weather is an issue and disease, health, hygiene, etc are not on a par to home but I for one prefer to take the money and be happy to provide my family with what they deserve for having put up with my career to date.
Those who want to stay home, great less competition for me and keeps my pay up!
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Has he tried India?
Africa?
How about Afghanistan or Iraq?
This guy sounds like very many Westerners who've lived their whole lives cocooned in a modern 'McD' environment, suddenly shocked into the reality of how the other half of the planet live.
China's not so bad.
Get over it.
Africa?
How about Afghanistan or Iraq?
This guy sounds like very many Westerners who've lived their whole lives cocooned in a modern 'McD' environment, suddenly shocked into the reality of how the other half of the planet live.
China's not so bad.
Get over it.
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A really worthwhile post. My Company is having a difficult time right now and the Far East is an option being actively considered. Just because someone else posted something similar ages ago in no way diminishes the value of this OP. Cheers Dude, thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.
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C46r
Absolutely on the money with that post...what some people fail to realise when tempted by the big bucks....whether in this industry, or any other, is that there is an unquantifiable thing called "home" that for a lot of us just cannot be transported to another part of the world...even if you take your loved ones with you, and even if you go and live somewhere nice! much less if you do a long commute away from them. For some...albeit those of us with fairly good jobs already, no amount of extra money or rank can replace that sense of belonging and familiarity, of having family around you, and having longstanding friends that have been with you since the beginning.....kindered spirits and not just those you've been thrown together with because of geography.
VORTEX THING.. at the risk of sounding a bit facetious, I do find your post quite amusing.....to quote
"Yes there are pay issues, language issues, personality and cultural issues. the weather is an issue and disease, health, hygiene"....
.....Bloody hell...combine that with family and home issues and you've pretty much ticked every single box in the 'reasons not to go and work abroad' column!.......Vortex..you are obviously happy with your choice and have made the right one for you and your family, and not JUST for the bucks...What I see is different though, in the company I work for there are some very bitter guys who have pursued money or rank at all costs, only to approach retirement with nowhere to call home, no roots and a couple of divorces under their belt.
For some, being an expat really is a golden ticket..hats of to those for whom thats the case ..for others however there is an eternal longing to return to the life they had before which underlines their very existence, and sometimes for many reasons that is sometimes impossible to fulfill
Absolutely on the money with that post...what some people fail to realise when tempted by the big bucks....whether in this industry, or any other, is that there is an unquantifiable thing called "home" that for a lot of us just cannot be transported to another part of the world...even if you take your loved ones with you, and even if you go and live somewhere nice! much less if you do a long commute away from them. For some...albeit those of us with fairly good jobs already, no amount of extra money or rank can replace that sense of belonging and familiarity, of having family around you, and having longstanding friends that have been with you since the beginning.....kindered spirits and not just those you've been thrown together with because of geography.
VORTEX THING.. at the risk of sounding a bit facetious, I do find your post quite amusing.....to quote
"Yes there are pay issues, language issues, personality and cultural issues. the weather is an issue and disease, health, hygiene"....
.....Bloody hell...combine that with family and home issues and you've pretty much ticked every single box in the 'reasons not to go and work abroad' column!.......Vortex..you are obviously happy with your choice and have made the right one for you and your family, and not JUST for the bucks...What I see is different though, in the company I work for there are some very bitter guys who have pursued money or rank at all costs, only to approach retirement with nowhere to call home, no roots and a couple of divorces under their belt.
For some, being an expat really is a golden ticket..hats of to those for whom thats the case ..for others however there is an eternal longing to return to the life they had before which underlines their very existence, and sometimes for many reasons that is sometimes impossible to fulfill
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I find the quality of life in Dubai far better than I could ever have in UK, career path is better, airlines are better, society is better, schools are excellent, family is happier, etc etc and to boot everyone speaks English!
The expat observations of years ago seem to still ring true:
Give a Brit a uniform and he'll work for nothing.
Hire two Ozmates and they will form a labour union (ask EK on that one
).When a job driving the lav truck opens up at home an American will be gone.
In my initial sim the F/O
who didn't speak English did not give a call about my speed during takeoff
roll. The sim tech put in a windshear and airspeed had stagnated and I had
already transitioned to outside reference before V1 above 100 knts. The
F/O said nothing. As we overrun I shoot a glare to the F/O and he says
something in Chinese. The translator says "He says he is sorry he never saw
this situation before"
who didn't speak English did not give a call about my speed during takeoff
roll. The sim tech put in a windshear and airspeed had stagnated and I had
already transitioned to outside reference before V1 above 100 knts. The
F/O said nothing. As we overrun I shoot a glare to the F/O and he says
something in Chinese. The translator says "He says he is sorry he never saw
this situation before"
Sure you can get the sucky sucky but
You could marry that stripper and everything
To quote a local businessman in a middle eastern country when discussing some obnoxious western tourists who had just left his shop after failing to browbeat him into selling his wares for virtually nothing, "The problem with them is they spend all of their time trying to make the rest world be just like their home country".
If you travel anywhere in the world expecting it to be just like home, you're bound to be very disappointed.
If you travel anywhere in the world expecting it to be just like home, you're bound to be very disappointed.
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"The problem with them is they spend all of their time trying to make the rest world be just like their home country".
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"If you travel anywhere in the world expecting it to be just like home, you're bound to be very disappointed."
Or, conversely, you may very well be surprised and delighted with some aspects new to you...you must be open to the good, as well as the bad. Happened to me.
Or, conversely, you may very well be surprised and delighted with some aspects new to you...you must be open to the good, as well as the bad. Happened to me.
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The Moral of the story in China is get in and get the cash for 2 contracts and then you are financially set for life if you can wisely manage your money. There is no job security here but it is very liveable. The medicals are atrocious and can be the most difficult part of the job. The flying is actually enjoyable if you have a mix of International and domestic flying and the young first officers even though not very experienced are eager and thorough. The environment is as described but there are some jewels in the rough. Sanya, Tibet, Sichuan etc. are incredible to see and visit. The job is different here than the Middle East as it is higher paying and MUCH more time off but the job security pales. Ask me again in 5 years and I'll tell you whether it was the right move or not. As with any Ex-Pat job always have a Plan B nearby. The beer here is actually quite good and very cheap. A 700ml bottle can be purchased for 3 rmb about 45 cents.
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Great initial post and good for you to sit down and give the time to write it... There Are some great places to live. China is not one of them. I have lived in many countries and would pick Africa ( not the north part ) as the best for a life style. China is too polluted. The middle east is meaningless. South East Asia is a great mix. I couldnt live back in Europe or Australia, too many white people live there. And with regards to money....people do very strange things to attain it...like go and work in China.
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Yep that's dead true of working in China c46r.
Remember that it was a closed country for many years under
the Reds, plus a few hundred years getting shagged over by
everyone from Mongols to the poms certainly engenders an
"up yours jack!" mentality. The culture by our standard stinks
but then the locals believe it the height of unhygenic practice
to blow one's snot into a wet soggy hanky. It depends on the
culture one's formative years as to what's normal and what is
not.
Given that for much of its history the locals were just flat out
trying to survive and fight off menacing hordes, its really no
surprise that opportunism at every turn is firmly embedded
in the culture. This is true esp in their practice of filial piety
which makes not many distinctions between "sense of family"
and general business practices. Hence the treatment of expat
foreigners and the "interpretation" of contracts held by same,
in this instance "family" being the Company. So foreigners in
cultural context are definitely not wanted whatsoever but are
definitely needed until their usefulness is no longer required.
I have no intention nor any desire whatsoever to work and/or
live in China but just a short burst of some reasons why they
are the way they are. It will take at least 3 generations before
there's any semblance of what we perceive as civilised action
and behavior, assuming the CPC keeps on its present track.
Anyway I've no doubt some mod will come out of the forum
woodwork and delete my post like they've been doing for the
past week everywhere else I write, but maybe some will read
this before it gets the eventual chop and understand a bit of
the why.
Remember that it was a closed country for many years under
the Reds, plus a few hundred years getting shagged over by
everyone from Mongols to the poms certainly engenders an
"up yours jack!" mentality. The culture by our standard stinks
but then the locals believe it the height of unhygenic practice
to blow one's snot into a wet soggy hanky. It depends on the
culture one's formative years as to what's normal and what is
not.
Given that for much of its history the locals were just flat out
trying to survive and fight off menacing hordes, its really no
surprise that opportunism at every turn is firmly embedded
in the culture. This is true esp in their practice of filial piety
which makes not many distinctions between "sense of family"
and general business practices. Hence the treatment of expat
foreigners and the "interpretation" of contracts held by same,
in this instance "family" being the Company. So foreigners in
cultural context are definitely not wanted whatsoever but are
definitely needed until their usefulness is no longer required.
I have no intention nor any desire whatsoever to work and/or
live in China but just a short burst of some reasons why they
are the way they are. It will take at least 3 generations before
there's any semblance of what we perceive as civilised action
and behavior, assuming the CPC keeps on its present track.
Anyway I've no doubt some mod will come out of the forum
woodwork and delete my post like they've been doing for the
past week everywhere else I write, but maybe some will read
this before it gets the eventual chop and understand a bit of
the why.
Moderator
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Anyway I've no doubt some mod will come out of the forum
woodwork and delete my post like they've been doing for the
past week everywhere else I write, but maybe some will read
this before it gets the eventual chop.
woodwork and delete my post like they've been doing for the
past week everywhere else I write, but maybe some will read
this before it gets the eventual chop.