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EZY Cadet Contracts

Old 17th Feb 2012, 14:35
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"well we all started somewhere". Yes we did but not on shiny jets! You work your way up. Why should I have to 'teach' basic airmanship everyday? I dont get paid extra for it.
Point me in the direction of opportunities in GA, turbo-props, aerial work anything please!? Working your way up the hypothtical ladder is very very difficult when the lower rungs are missing.
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Old 17th Feb 2012, 18:22
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Funny you should mention that!

I've recently been accepted as part of cabin crew at bmibaby. They were extremely good at interview and didn't take the "well this is a cabin crew position, not a pilots" that another airline CC selection that I attended.

From what I gather they seem like a great company. The problem is their future (and ofcourse my eventually transition to the flight deck) is hanging in the balance
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Old 17th Feb 2012, 19:16
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

LVL_CHG: well done - at least you are making contacts - that is all this game is about. Better to be seen as a worthwhile investment for pilot training than be taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous schools that do not teach airmanship or anything beyond the minimums to get through an LST.

BZB may not be financially involved with the self licking lollypop that is CTC. It is clear however that he takes a myopic view when it comes to the quality of the output of that this money making machine produces. How anyone can think that a 200h (soon to be 70h MPL plus SIM time) straight into an A319 with severe restrictions on manual flying is a good pilot apprenticeship is beyond most aviators.


As for the EZY Line training being OK - ask those CTC cadets at EZY Swiss who were shafted at Line Check.

A 200h cadet scheme pilot is usually hugely under confident. CTC give extra SIM sessions to their own Wings cadets to meet the LST. But getting someone to a pass level only for a single test then to fail later is expensive for all (even assuming no accident occurs). The whole CAA multi choice ATPL exam system has similar faults in training for test not knowledge.

Why are youngsters hit so hard on car insurance? Are they safer than a 28 or 40 year old with 100,000 miles or so of driving experience? So how is having 60 to 70% cadet recruitment a good thing on a jet airliner? Was Sullenberger a 22 year old cadet?


Even the best Military schemes have several stages before being let loose in a fast or large jet aircraft. Emergency handling is taught from the earliest lessons. Situational awareness and capacity are assessed on every sortie not through naff Compass tests or SIMS (where there is no chance of death unless you fall off the bridge) but in the actual flying environment with additional simulated tasking.

Those that fail go through an air warning/ground warning remedial package and if not up to scratch chopped or assessed as a training risk.

Many cadets do not have good instructional continuity and many of the instructors have no instructional background in teaching qualifications or FI backgrounds outside of a CTC TRI course. Some of the ground school is almost all Power point / CBT without supervision by a trained person. Type Rating exam answers have been known to be given to cadets before test.

I am not against cadets. I am against them being under trained for the benefit of shareholder profits. I am against them being given false expectations and a system that is depriving aviators in other sectors of career progression. I am against the dilution of piloting skills in airliners in the UK through exclusive P2F/Cadet/Flexi recruitment schemes.

I am for the proper training of those with the nouse and hard graft to become seasoned aviators. Would that there were real apprenticeship schemes that give a 5 or 10 year career path for junior pilots. Both Integrated and MPL are failing to do this because of profit over quality.

Those that claim there is no other solution but paying for TRs or Line Flying are (sadly) the deluded ones who believe the lies the Pilot Mills/So called Approved Schools have told them. They complain about not having a job with 200h and a CPL. Not that long ago you couldn't even get a CPL without 700h ! They either wish to borrow huge sums or waste their own or their family's inheritance/hard earned cash on these jump the queue rip off deals that lower entry conditions for all pilots. They have not spent 8 or so years flying anything with wings to gain experience. They ask others to do job searches for them so they don't have to put in the hours making their own contacts.

Yes the system is broken when you get the biggest UK LoCo excluding all but CTC cadets because they have cadets now becoming captains and management pilots and HR who know of no other system and deride GA and Military training without real knowledge.

This system has only worked because of the Pilot Mill propoganda selling the RHS at EZY, the lack of moral fibre to stand against it by existing (well paid) staff and BALPA, the fear of the Flexi crew pilots that if they go sick they will be sacked or not given a more permanent job, a CAA that has turned a blind eye, a reliable A319 aircraft with half decent FBW system and hard working Line and Training Captains that have looked after the cadets or taught them what they should have known before joining the airline.

All it takes is for the holes in the swiss cheese to align. As Flight International reported:

"In the past 20 years, almost all the business, technical and operational ground rules governing commercial aviation have radically altered, forced by market changes, air traffic management, navigation, and aircraft and avionic technology. Logically, these demand a change in training - but that change has not been delivered. What has most affected pilots is the influence of low-cost carriers, bringing radical change to many airline relationships with flightcrew. But what has most changed crew recruiting and management is the decline of the military as a pilot skills provider.
Meanwhile, there has been a loss of pilot exposure to *anything other than pre-packaged flight planning, followed by automated flight on the line. In unusual *circumstances - non-standard or not automated - a lack of pilot resilience has led to fatal loss of control (LOC) accidents, making LOC the biggest killer category this century - taking over from controlled flight into terrain in the last.

This is acknowledged by industry bodies such as IATA and the International Civil Aviation Organisation, and their respective training and qualification initiatives. So carriers cannot say they have not been warned, but these efforts have not been translating into action. Just as a reminder, the number of fatalities caused by airline accidents in the 1980s was about 1,100 a year, whereas numbers now are less than 800 a year, despite revenue-passenger kilometres being three times larger. The industry could revert to the bad old days, but for a different reason: the aircraft are better, but the skills to operate them are degrading."
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Old 17th Feb 2012, 20:12
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LVL_CHG View Post
Point me in the direction of opportunities in GA, turbo-props, aerial work anything please!? Working your way up the hypothtical ladder is very very difficult when the lower rungs are missing.
The lower rungs aren't missing they are just full of people who can't get a break either. They can't get a break because the higher rungs are full of idiots who've paid 120K so they can occupy a position that they haven't earned.
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Old 17th Feb 2012, 20:21
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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LSM bravo.
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Old 17th Feb 2012, 21:05
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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angelorange

AO,

A really well written post.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 08:39
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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system that is depriving aviators in other sectors of career progression.
You are kidding aren't you? What a load of crap.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 08:59
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Snoop it is no joke - it's a very serious concern.

B&B - suggest you read LSM's post - many pilots are stuck in their careers eg: Instructors, TP operators, even the Military - I personally know of 2 Harrier pilots with 6 tours of Afghan and instructional background who have been turned down by major airlines (one even has a training captain relative with that airline) - why? Airmanship? Flying ability? Task management? CRM with ground operatives, formation wingmen?

No, it's because these UK airlines prefer this cadet scheme!
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 09:49
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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So what can be done?

I am against them being under trained for the benefit of shareholder profits
Not just under trained but also this top level sanctioned policy of hiring the cheapest form of labour possible (indebted 21 year olds)...also ageism by proxy. The government might be interested in tackling this loophole exploitation, especially since unemployment is now at a 16 year high.

HR who know of no other system and deride GA and Military training without real knowledge
hit, nail, head

CTCs strangle-hold on pilot recruitment in this country (not just at EZY) has resulted in an anticompetitive price and policy fix that is screwing the lot of us. This would never be tolerated in other industries. I've heard people talk about a free market and that airlines can choose their sources of recruitment as they please. Ignoring the fact that these are very suspect (you scratch mine and I'll scratch yours) type relationships anyway, I think this is a very old capitalist manner of thinking and I can name many examples in recent years where major (mostly technology) firms have been forced to change their market behaviour due to circumstances not very different to ours.

If interested, Competition Act 1998* - The Office of Fair Trading
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 09:52
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Ezy that's a crap guess, I'd rather stick my knob in a cessnas spinning propellor than work for ctc. I trained with them and I am happy where they have taken me. To blame ctc cadets for others choices however is mental. It's a free world, each way has its pros and cons. Decide, adapt or accept.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 12:28
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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angelorange - a single seat Harrier pilot with 6 tours VFR in Afghanistan (less than 2000hrs TT I imagine) or a current A320 pilot with 5000 hours on type in a European environment - who is the better choice? I am not really sure why the fact he had a relative who was a Training Captain in his chosen airline should improve his chances either - maybe I have misunderstood how the old boy network works in these circles and how he really should have been preferred to everyone else because he is a Harrier pilot. He could, of course, pay for a type rating like his civvie counterparts and he may find his chances are substantially improved. Then again if the world owes him a living, maybe he should just sit back and wait for what is rightfully his to be given to him on a plate.

Like so many discussions on here, there is no shortage of people answering the question that no one is asking. I do not like CTC any more than anyone else, and I completely buy into the view that they have a stranglehold they should not on the industry. They provide pilots with no experience and keep ex-mil and tp guys/gals out - outrageous, but it is it what it is. That is the whole problem of this discussion. Some people are trying to point out the iniquities of the current pilot recruitment world - I am not disagreeing with their views. I am, however, answering the question regarding getting into easyJet. If you are a no-houred pilot starting out you need to go to CTC these days - love it or hate it that is reality. To suggest to someone they should work their way up through air taxi stuff or being an ops clerk is just incredibly bad advice - that is a route to failure.

Incidentally, the only way to be a Harrier pilot (when there were actually some Harriers in service to fly) is to start at IOT and then go through basic training, RAF Valley and finally an OCU. Virtually without exception every first tourist Harrier pilot has less than 300 hours when he arrives on his first squadron (he may have another 160 hours from the UAS or be an ex-Creamy who has done a previous instructional tour, but that is the exception rather than the rule). Fundamentally no one bats an eyelid at that, yet everyone complains at what airlines do. I am at a slight loss to see the difference - someone please enlighten me.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 12:40
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Because the harrier guy has been selected at all stages for his SKILLS rather than how much money is in daddy's wallet. Simple difference. Put a first tour harrier pilot in an A320 TR and I'm sure he will do fairly well - not necessarily as they are different skill sets (CRM etc) but put a CTC cadet into a harrier training scheme and my odds will be a lot higher for him/her to fail.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 12:53
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Just a thought, but why does everyone blame CTC for the way things are?

Since you all must know (because it's common sense) that easyJet was the sole instigator in the birth of Flexi-crew. eJ knew they could get the product for cheaper, so told CTC to make it happen. CTC weren't happy about it because 1) they would earn less money per cadet 2) quite a step backwards in terms of marketing not having their 100% employment record into airlines.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending CTC, I think they take too much money for too long from cadets who are flexi-crew but I do find the notion that if CTC had said "no, we won't do it" eJ would have crossed their arms, sulked and accepted it, a little ridiculous. From what I can gather, CTC were told to make it happen or the contract would go to another provider. When CTC tried to negotiate with eJ on the birth of the flexi-crew contract, there were times that eJ (well, a certain director) effectively told them to put up and shut up.

So I agree with Bealzebub, really, the shifting sands has come from the rise of the LCC and their realisation that they can get the same product at a cheaper price, not from a training provider. If CTC didn't exist, another school would have filled the void.

Like I say, just a thought.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 13:13
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Meerkat, who is the better choice:

A Harrier pilot with 2000 hours or;

A 21 year old, heavily indebted, 200 hour pilot?

I think you'll find that that, in this instance, is a more accurate comparison.

I am at a slight loss to see the difference - someone please enlighten me.
The difference fella is that the Harrier pilot has achieved his position the CTC/Flexi cadet has bought his.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 15:34
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst the Harrier pilot comes from the single pilot world, the skills and atributes of a modern day glass cockpit FBW MCC CRM and TEM can be instilled. However the LCCs regocnise this as a cost to be metered out to the stag do punter. In such a competitive world, that costs an airline business, hence the debacle we all now face. The 'lower end' joe public punter has no idea how pilots are trained, and may in many cases assume all are ex mil. Many don't care, or care very little for their own safety, as long as they got the cheap deal, more cash in the kitty for Prague.

As the CAA has passed more and more of the regulatory 'buck' over to AOC holders for self governance, it is no wonder such a system now exists.

In going back to the cadet vs Harrier, or any military type, FJ or Transport/rotary, the RAF's own personel were very much in charge of the recruiting decision. Is this guy or girl as low a risk as possible, pre training?
EZY not only use CTC, but also OAA. However, what shocks me is the apparent 'casting off' of any responsibility by Ruth S and her peers, by totally outsourcing the recruitment of such cadets to OAA and Parc! No apparent EZY involvement whatsoever in the recruitment decision. I hope I am very wrong, but having two BA chaps interview a nepthew for a scheme they have nothing to do with (other than providing an interviewing service for parc it would seem) is rather diluting the responsibility EZY has for ensuring the right people are in their flight decks. Of course the scheme in question uses lots of orange branding for yet another contracting position, so it is somewhat misleading that the scheme is not advertised as Parc, in association with OAA (i suppose one does own the other). I would love to see the internal risk assesment applied for that decision.

However, as said. It is what it is. It is up to individuals to look at the fine print and do adequate research. For the record, I have nothing against cadets regardless of license held. I'm all for TP and ex mil types getting a shot at civvi jet jobs, but only if the airlines select the right people, not just those whose families own oil fields! This sadly is all but going on in LCC world. I have even heard of license holders, applying to said schemes, doing everything again at double the debt, just for a sniff. Utter madness, but it seems the LCCs love it!

As another aside, there are no doubt many single pilot fast jet pilots who would not be suitable for a modern day cockpit. As previously mentioned, the flight deck is not a training ground. In this case a training ground for MCC. Many other fast jet pilots would no doubt be suitable, post conversion to civvi street. There are many wrong types in all airlines. It is up to recruitment departments, and the training system to ensure they are filtered out. Just becuase you paid for a license, it does not automatically entile anyone to a job!
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 15:45
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Because the harrier guy has been selected at all stages for his SKILLS rather than how much money is in daddy's wallet.
Without getting into the whole CTC vs self-improver debate, which has and continues to be done ad nauseum here, one question - why is it always assumed that it's 'daddy' who pays?

There are plenty of guys and girls who do CTC/Oxford/other fATPL sausage-factory and put up all the money with all the associated risk themselves.

By all means argue against the route into the industry - I very much do not like what it has become (it has changed substantially since I started at CTC way back in the day) and I absolutely understand the arguments being put forward against it here. Sometimes I look out of the window on a 4hr+ sector with the AP on and wish I'd given myself the chance to experience more 'proper' flying before getting into an Airbus. I wouldn't let my kids follow the same career path that I have so far for a multitude of reasons.

But from first-hand experience, this notion that all integrated fATPLs have been given a £120k present from rich relatives is, in the vast majority of cases, inaccurate. There are a few, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 16:23
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Yes you're right I apologise for that, I myself came through CTC with an unsecured loan - in no way my parents money or putting my parents at risk at all.

However, now the age of unsecured funds are gone, I can only assume that a higher percentage of cadets are putting the security up against their parents house or using them as a guarantor. No?
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Old 18th Feb 2012, 23:07
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The directly comparable people are the experienced Harrier pilots and the experienced A320 pilots - compare like with like. In the past a Harrier pilot would walk straight into BA, Cathay, Virgin and would in most cases have turned up his nose at easyJet. The simple fact is that world is not the rosy place it once was for ex-fast jet military guys. There is still a way forward for them, but they have to pay their way like the rest of the world into a type-rating. Changed days, but I am frankly at a loss to know why a Harrier pilot should not have to pay for a type-rating but everyone else should.

Regarding the stuff about CTC, they have a rigorous selection procedure with every bit as much of a dropout from initial applicants to final success as the military system. It is absolutely not the case that the entrance qualification to CTC is the size of your wallet. What is true to say is that since the demise of funded loans from HSBC the CTC route has been limited to those with both talent and independent financial resources. The demise of those loans incidentally has been caused by a small number of unscrupulous cadets who went bankrupt to avoid their liabilities to their loan providers when they in fact had access to paid employment. Not surprisingly, HSBC saw disaster looming and pulled out the market - consequently that has prevented poorer people from coming in.

studi - I am not really sure what your basic argument is. It is clearly a tragedy that someone can attempt to become an airline pilot without the basic talents. There is nothing I have seen that tells me CTC is trying to do that. Do people without the basic talent reach the cockpit of an Airbus? The sad answer is 'yes', but not often. The exact same happens in RAF front line flying - I can remember young lads getting onto the Squadron and then failing at the last hurdle, primarily due to a lack of basic talent. You seem to be suggesting that CTC are in the business of putting untalented pilots in the cockpits of commercial airliners - that is not my experience.

Where I think we have gone wrong at easyJet is not with the individual low-houred pilots but a lack of balanced recruitment. We can no longer say we recruit the best - we recruit the cheapest. We need to return to a range of recruiting options - i.e. ex-instructors, ex-military, ex-North Sea helicopters, ex-turboprop and current commercial pilots from suitable companies. That is the most credible way forward and I am disappointed we have not done that. My own view is that the days of company-sponsored type-ratings are over - you can argue whether that is right or not, but that is the future as I see it. In the meantime we have to recognise that market forces will ultimately decide the future of pilot recruitment.
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Old 19th Feb 2012, 05:26
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No, the directly comparable people are the people who are looking for jobs. Here we have two extremes, the guy with flying experience and the guy without, but with lots of money. Why would a 5000 hour, Airbus type rated pilot need to pay CTC for a job with EasyJet? They wouldn't and are, therefore, completely irrelevant to this topic.

The point was not that one person should and one person should not pay for a job. The point is that the very capable pilot with some of the best flying experience you can get is unable to get a job because somebody has given CTC/Easy loads of money.

I can remember young lads getting onto the Squadron and then failing at the last hurdle, primarily due to a lack of basic talent
Absolute BS. Are you really saing that Bloggs made it through Linton, Valley, and the OCU without basic talent?

The very reason that you do not recruit people with the experience that you yearn for is because of the system that you extol the virtues of.

Still the question remains. Who is the better choice? Experience or money?
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Old 19th Feb 2012, 10:07
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Ezy - is this really the case on a daily basis or are the cadets a convenient target to vent your spleen? No one denies that experience is diluted at EasyJet but it's not that bad at the smaller bases.
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