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Old 20th Feb 2012, 15:52   #181 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
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Snoop ADM figures:

"Elementary Flying Training (EFT) phase with the tutor, on which the student accumulates at least 60 hours"

"Basic Fast Jet Training (BFJT) involves 124 flight hours + 40h Simulator time at RAF Linton-on-Ouse, North Yorkshire, on Short Tucano T.1s "

"Successful students pass to 4 FTS at RAF Valley, Anglesey, where they undertake advanced and weapons training on HS Hawk T.1 and T.1A variants "

"Each trainee spends some 28 hours in the Hawk Simulator and 140h airborne"

The air-force sees SIM time as enhanced hours but not a replacement for real flying time.

"Those who pass the course are awarded their ‘wings’ (the RAF Flying Badge), and most progress to operational conversion units on front-line types"

So even before OCU (which we might equate to a CivilainType rating/base training etc), At least 324h airborne (no civi taxi time included which would add at least 10 mins per sortie/maybe even 50h on the ground!), No additional poor weather/operational change times added. Plus some 68h SIM training.

Before OCU the majority would have 400 to 500h in civi terms.

(And to become a Hawk QFI, min is 500h P1 (First Pilot post wings)/18 months operational tour).

Compare this to an OAA/EZY MPL:

easyJet MPL First Officer Programme | Oxford Aviation Academy - OAA.com

75h SEP
5h MEP
5h SEP Aeros

Total: 85h flying total (and less Solo hours than a Private Pilot Licence).


5h FNPT1
90h FNPT2

Total: 95 h SIM


66h A320 SIM
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 15:53   #182 (permalink)
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It is now the MPL/Integrated over priced fancy flight school route.
Not exclusively. Although it is getting more and more that way and if Flybe ever go down the CTC/Flexi route crap then my comments apply as much to them as anyone else.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 16:45   #183 (permalink)
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Devil the UK flight training system is broken

"The Harrier pilot, on the other hand, would have to pay the training organisation because he cannot fly an Airbus. "

Ha ha! So he can land a Harrier on a moving target (Invincible class carrier) in poor weather but has insufficient skill (or should we agree: money!) to fly an Airbus?! Ever heard of transferable skills?

AdM - did you pay for your type rating? It is not about why a harrier pilot should not pay and others have to. Rather, why should any talented pilot pay for a TR or anything beyond an ATPL/ATP?

TRTOs were originally licenced for the benefit of the airline: To train their own pilots! CRM training and LOFT was in house for all crew. TRTOs were not touted to the public for P2F or any other schemes until CTC and their ilk came along. Outsourcing to a 3rd party is not the most effective way to build a team or improve CRM.

Further down the pipeline, the advent of JAR meant the CAA rules changed and lowered flight time requirements (700h reduced to 200h) for a CPL/IR and negated exams like BCPL/CPL to go straight in at ATPL multi guess level.

The Pilot Mills and LoCos took advantage - yes business is business. But the effect on experience levels in the cockpit and oversupply of frozen ATPLs in the UK has not been fully appreciated until recently.

Having 10 to 20% cadets is one thing (perfectly fine if well selected and trained) but 70% at Gatwick ? The CAA might disagree but maybe Mgt really want 100%?

Comparing CTC cadets (post 2008) to Lufthansa or RAF pilots about to start at an OCU is like chalk and cheese.

Assuming they all start with the highest possible IQ and hand eye co-ordination (i.e.: all capable of becoming harrier pilots if that avenue still existed!), it is clear that the RAF training is superior and would create a better aviator whilst the CTC one would produce a generally under confident but good button pusher/SOP monitor.

Studi might advise about Lufthansa whose cadet scheme is very similar to the original BA/Hamble example (not todays self funded, £84k up front for CTC/ARL to look after,BA version). Suffice to say Lufthansa do not charge for training. They even pay your travel to interview. Indeed, Lufthansa CityLine would pay the cadet/DEP around 20,000Euros as an extra bonus on top of normal salary for staying in for 2 years. The German cadet system is more about being good enough not about being able to pay. They also use Citation biz jets for part of the training - not simply an MPL with 75h flying in light pistons.

When a doctor qualifies do they have to pay for training on the surgical instruments they use in operating theatres. Do they rent those theatres (without financial gain) to practice on the public? Does a Tube driver pay for the specific type of Tube she drives? Does she pay to drive those carriages for the first 6 months and then get told to move on into unemployment so another driver who wants to pay for 6 months can take over?

When a punter pays a just a few £GBP (pre tax) for a LoCo flight do they realize the Pilot occupying the front RH seat may be subsidising the flight by effectively paying to work?

BB/AdM : would you send your nearest and dearest on a company flight knowing the RHS is occupied by someone paying to get 100h on an A319? Or someone under a Pilot Mill scheme who scored 95% in their TR exams because they had copies of the test papers supplied pre test?

Is 3000h from CTC cadet straight through to A320 really good experience to cope with the likes of a double engine failure at 3000 feet as per Flt 1529 Hudson river?

If we had not had that example of airmanship/with that hindsight would the CTC crew have done the same? A CTC TRE running a B737 JOC was asked to demonstrate a double engine failure senario in March 2008 - he was shocked: "we only do single engine failures after take off" !

CTC - for SOPs fine (if they are the same as the airline you are promised).

for anything else? It's your money -at least for now.

Last edited by angelorange; 20th Feb 2012 at 17:00.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 18:13   #184 (permalink)
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Angelorange and LSM need to go and visit a hospice and realise what's important in life. Time to stop obsessing over harrier pilots.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 18:25   #185 (permalink)
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If one post of mine is obsessing then I guess you're now obsessed with me.

Silly boy.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 22:35   #186 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by antonov09
Flybe are at the same thing aswell. In fact I met one the other day that was going through Cabair. No flight instructing just straight out of flight school into a shiny Dash 8 on a 5/2 5/2 6/3 I was informed. So why cant the guy bobbling around in his Trilander or doing air taxi get a job with Flybe? Because they rather pluck the lemmings from Cabair FTE and Oxford instead. And lets face it type rating paid for but poor roster and the pay isnt great either.

All very well for you to throw stones sitting pretty in your Embraer out of EGHI.

Glass houses.

You talk nonsense, the reason being is this: Flybe have always had a stream of sponsored cadets from FTE etc. Your normal fATPL, instructor, harrier pilot, air taxi, charter pilot etc etc etc have always been employed as well. When the recession hit they obviously shut up shop to the masses because their intake of sponsored (note here, sponsored) cadets was enough to see them through without them actually having to open recruitment up to the masses. Flybe will recruit again in the future as and when they have to, but you can still blame the 200hr sky gods if they don't recruit for a while; the reason being? Most Flybe pilots used to move on to Easyjet, Thomson, Thomas Cook, BA etc, that avenue is now closed (apart from BA) due to these very people. It's a viscous circle I'm afraid, and before you slate Flybe just remember they are one of the only decent, traditional employers left out there.

Last edited by Coffin Corner; 23rd Feb 2012 at 10:20.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 23:34   #187 (permalink)
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Blame the 200 hour sky gods? Well funny that I met a young Flybe skygod to be the other day and he had a lot less than 200 hours. He had more bars on his shoulders than I do, and Ive got a couple thousand hours on narrow bodies and quite a few on pistons . And then the guy slaving around for 20 quid an hour working at a different flight school (same airfield) cant get a look in. I spoke with him, and despondent wouldnt even come close.

What a sad industry.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 02:17   #188 (permalink)
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The reason you met a lower than 200hr Flybe chap is because he was "sponsored", The hrs are quite irrelevant.
Flybe will recruit the likes of your "mate" again who is earning £20 per hour, and most likely very shortly, can you say the same for Easyjet? No you can't so what exactly is your point?

Last edited by Coffin Corner; 23rd Feb 2012 at 10:20.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 05:25   #189 (permalink)
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CTC wings (the training provide for easyjet) came to Australia 2 weeks ago for an open night for the Jetstar Pilot cadetship.
The CEO of CTC was talking to us and was saying absolute bullshit. Some of my favourites were
"If you become an airline pilot you will be able to afford 2 holiday houses a nice car".
"After a few years you will get a 6 digit salary".
"It will only take a few years to become a captain"
"There is no other way of becoming an airline pilot unless you do a cadetship"

But luckily, a Qantas 747 captain (who was at the open night with his son) absolutely drilled the CEO with questions about the pay for cadets and the recent incident where a Jetstar cadet did some dangerous approach and had to do a go around. I reckon 9 out of 10 people at the open night were absolutely disgusted with the pay. $50,000 AUD before tax and before a $180,000 training loan paid off over 6 years.

Im pretty worried about the 1 in 10 who thought it was reasonable to be paid $50,000 i know what airline i wont be flying with next...
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 10:01   #190 (permalink)
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Coffin Corner and dictator brothers, have a watch of this and decide if you want one of your 'Harrier Heroes' doing the landing in the Airbus for you while you sit back and marvel at his or her skill:

Dont talk to me about forgetting to flare or having natural ability. They might be able to land on a moving target but the fixed ones clearly cause problems!

Coffin Corner, I was not selected by BA, get over it - I have.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 10:08   #191 (permalink)
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BlackandBrown, before you properly make a tit of yourself I'd like to point out that a few minutes with Google, and something like "airbus heavy landing incidents", might be profitable. The first three links I can see are all low-hours copilots bending nosewheels and breaking aircraft; and they're not even flying a sickly jet, singlehanded, into an airfield in the middle of combat at +40C/4,000' DA.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 10:42   #192 (permalink)
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Black and Brown, if you look back at my posts I have never mentioned cadet inadequacies so I don't need any evidence.

Two posts about harriers now son, are you starting to get obsessive?
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:21   #193 (permalink)
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B&B, are you going to ignore Ezy's post?

It seems you have the evidence that you asked for.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:28   #194 (permalink)
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I fly with cadets everyday so I have evidence how bad they are. Yes they are bad! You get the odd one that is good and prepared to learn. Alot think they know it all!! I wish I knew it all when I had their hours!
Ezy - any specific examples? Doesn't seem to be the case at my base, though possibly as one of those dodgy cadets it could be no one's ever said anything to me. :-)
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 11:52   #195 (permalink)
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Harrier pilots?

There are probably thousands of unemployed and skilled civil pilots out there with thousands of airline hours under their belt. Why is everybody so hung up about Harrier pilots?

The main issue is that thousands of experienced pilots (civil and ex-military) can't get their foot in the door because a deluge of cadets are willing to pay for ratings and work for peanuts.

A totally asymmetric, ill-proportioned and slanted supply of pilots, thanks to a cozy relationship between some LCC airlines with some over-dimensioned pilot factories, that's the issue at stake here folks! All the rest is just noise and propaganda!

The current situation almost resembles a pyramid/Ponzi scheme, where huge rewards are promised to the gullible new joiners at the bottom of the pile, as long as they fork over tens of thousands of Pounds/Euros/Dollars to be able to participate. Utter and complete madness!
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 12:24   #196 (permalink)
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I'm a cadet, or was (when do you stop beign a cadet?) and I have to say I'm embarressed for the lot of you. I hope I never have to fly with any of you. Your attitudes stink and I imagine your CRM is similar. Do you persistently put your colleagues down too? Ever wonder if that's what makes them fly like idiots with a lack of confidence?
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 13:11   #197 (permalink)
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Doug TH: Good summary.

The only reason the "H" word was mentioned in the first place was to demonstrate how far this CTC/ARL/Flexi/P2F scheme has gone. The next step for the schools to promote their MPL as the only way to become an airline pilot.

EZY have not recruited experienced crews for the past 4 years (unless they had well over 500h on an A320). TRSS closed in 2008.

If someone with vast (or even 1500h flying) experience, whether Civilian or Military background can't get a look in because of such exclusive deals between employers and schools then even HR should not need a degree to appreciate that the pilot skill levels in their airline cockpits is being diluted.

The consequences will eventually fall on the CEOs and more sadly on fellow pilots and the traveling public.

HPBleed - It is sad to hear you seem to agree that some do fly like idiots and lack confidence. Perhaps this is in part due to Captains expecting very high standards and lacking a little patience due to stress levels in the cockpit?

I am not against cadets. I am against them being taken for a ride by companies who should know better. And I am against exclusive recruiting that ignores genuine talent in the name of profits. A cadet route is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of but it should not be over 20% let alone 70% of the workforce. There are other ways to get into flying.

You stop being a cadet when you believe otherwise - probably after Line Check or maybe when you've got confidence in your own flying abilities. Some say you don't know an aircraft till your flown it for 1000h. Me I keep learning. The day I stop is the day I really get old!

Last edited by angelorange; 21st Feb 2012 at 13:32.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 13:12   #198 (permalink)
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This cadet bashing is getting a little out of hand I think. Everyone was a cadet once, somewhere, and learnt how to fly somehow. Some did it flying tin-can air taxi or single pilot IFR, others (over half of BA's pilots?) went straight to a jet.

For all intents and purposes I did too but with one major difference to the CTC/OAA arrangement: I was payed the same amount as any other FO in the airline with similar experience - DEFOs were continuously being hired off instructing/TP jobs, and they didn't make any money out of training people - almost to the contrary, TRs were company funded against a bond.
I was only released from training, after 70 sectors, when I had demonstrated the ability to fly from TOD to landing single pilot in not-so-nice weather and knew a good chunk of the OM and FCOMs by memory. Maybe a bit drastic but definitely not the minimum-training-and-it'll-be-fine-attitude in orange land.

My point is cadets shouldn't be a problem if the training is done properly. Sending people onto the line without being properly trained is unfair both crew.
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 13:43   #199 (permalink)
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babotika - you are absolutely right in many respects. BA pilots are well trained and the career path is more obvious than at EZY.

However, whilst many of it's pilots fly light aircraft in their spare time, BA as a company does not support GA and (unlike Lufthansa) they have forgotten their original cadet training roots to adopt the CTC/ARL/£84k upfront version.

From AOPA:

"The United Kingdom’s flight training industry has held a crisis meeting to debate whether it has a viable future and has formed a working group with AOPA representation to establish whether it can combat the regulatory and cost pressures that are dragging it down. The meeting, attended by the major players in the commercial flight training industry as well as airlines and pilot organisations, heard that a would-be airline pilot must find up to £130,000 (€155,000) for an integrated training course including type rating, regulatory fees and finance costs before being able to apply for a job, with no guarantee of getting one. Student numbers are dwindling and quality is falling as only the richest can contemplate becoming pilots.
Unlike some other European countries, Britain does not allow any tax breaks on self-funded aviation training and charges students tens of thousands of euros in VAT. Costs cannot be written off during employment. Moreover, British airlines have little or no involvement in training; where Lufthansa, for example, trains several hundred pilots a year, British Airways’ approach is entirely parasitical – it only poaches qualified pilots from other airlines.
The crisis comes as British airlines are mounting a new campaign to have more regulatory costs heaped on general aviation and the training industry. British Airways, among others, is demanding that the UK CAA start charging general aviation for the use of the air, even in the Open FIR, in order to reduce its own charges. BA says: “We believe it is disingenuous for the CAA to suggest that commercial aviation should be forced to pay for the poor practice of GA pilots, i.e. improving the safety of controlled airspace due to GA pilots not installing, or not switching on, transponders. There is an equal obligation on GA pilots to maintain a high level of safety, the achievement of which is, to a large extent, within their gift. Whilst the CAA has identified that they see policy and practical difficulties in moving to charge GA for the services they receive British Airways is of opinion that this problem is potentially easy to solve with the introduction of an annual payment for all registered aircraft, that covers the costs of the services and prevents flying without radio, without met data and other information as the option is pay or don’t fly.”
IAOPA points out, however, that every GA pilot pays more fuel tax than the whole of British Airways, a massive de facto subsidy which makes a mockery of BA’s claim to be hard done by.
The flight training organisations believe that asking the UK government to match the tax practices of other countries is a lost cause, so it must convince the airlines that they can profit by involving themselves in flight training. The main difficulty was seen as trying to talk to airlines about what they’d need two years down the line when they were concentrating on staying afloat for the next two hours. But with the training industry continuing to contract, doing nothing is not an option."
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Old 21st Feb 2012, 17:01   #200 (permalink)
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On a slight tangent, but related. I used to work for a LCC "ooop north". At some point, new hires were taken on a dual base contract.(bases about 1hr apart).

One dark night, a member of cabin crew was seriously injured in a car crash whilst returning from the alternate base. Next morning, there was a senior manager in the main base crewroom, on a propaganda/bullying mission. Being devils advocate ( and having already resigned), i mentioned the words "corporate manslaughter". Two days later a notac was issued extending min rest to 16 hours for all crew operating between bases.

There have been a number of fatals in the US attributed to both fatigue and pilot experience. The FAA are changing the rules, and the carriers involved are being sued for millions by the families.

How long before the CAA will feel the need to intervene?
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