BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal
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Perhaps it’s my ‘militant’ aura that brings out the inner socialist in others but I am not hearing a lot of love for the ‘Yes’ vote.
Given any choice at all there is no way I would vote for something that is obviously going to significantly reduce my earnings and increase my work over my career.
HOWEVER, I do not have a choice. The alternative is 100% gauranteed to be worse. I have no guarantee that BA express won't happen in the future anyway, I have no guarantee that all the other bad things won't happen in the future, but if I vote NO, I guarantee they happen now.
We are sliding down the hill fast, the only aim of the game now is to dig the anchors in and reduce the rate of descent. Hopefully at some point in the future there will be a means to climb the hill again, but despite all the militancy on here from certain people, such an opportuninty DOES NOT EXIST right now.
As I see it the choices are:
vote 'yes' - stay in the game, play defence, hopefully get our own 'powerplay' opportunity in the future.
Vote 'no' - leave the game entirely, have no say in the future outcome, apart from as spectators. And just like all spectators, we can splutter and swear and shout and be full of rightious indignation, but actually have zero ability to influence the outcome of the game.
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hmmm, seems to me WW is playing a blinder here! If 757 Driver is typical of a BA pilot then you are all running scared and willing to almost give away anything due to the fear of the unknown.
Fact is BALPA has scope agreements and a large membership etc and IF BA express were to be introduced then the scope clauses would kick in. Any expansion of BMI (BA express) beyond the existing 27 ish aircraft could be easily blocked, any transfer of slots / aircraft towards BMI would i am sure be vigourously fought. In a word BA express would fail. Dont cave in to this obvious sabre rattling.
Fact is BALPA has scope agreements and a large membership etc and IF BA express were to be introduced then the scope clauses would kick in. Any expansion of BMI (BA express) beyond the existing 27 ish aircraft could be easily blocked, any transfer of slots / aircraft towards BMI would i am sure be vigourously fought. In a word BA express would fail. Dont cave in to this obvious sabre rattling.
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IF BA express were to be introduced then the scope clauses would kick in. Any expansion of BMI (BA express) beyond the existing 27 ish aircraft could be easily blocked, any transfer of slots / aircraft towards BMI would i am sure be vigourously fought. In a word BA express would fail. Dont cave in to this obvious sabre rattling.
thats why we are in this position. Get your head out of european legal books and come and join the real world in the UK. Employment law is different, the legal system is different. Life isn't that simple.There's no point in explaining it if you can't be bothered to read the previous pages, but suffice to say all the answers as to why what you said is 100% incorrect are contained somewhere in this thread.
I really don't know why I bother to contribute or read anything on this gutter site as 99% of people don't have a scooby doo what they are talking about, and have no interest in teh issues they are debating either. Signing off now for the sake of my blood pressure. I shal continue to debate this subject with my colleagues who A) are more aware of all the issues involved and B) have a stake in the game.
Its easy to be argumentative when its someone elses stake you are playing with.
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Crickey... This is getting even more repetitive!
757 Driver is completely correct, there is nothing to add to his synopsis of the situation we are faced with.
Anyone thinking that some type of IA will leave us in a better position is dreaming. Bluepilot, SCOPE does not hold any protection for aircraft outwith the BA...not IAG umbrella, hence our desire to integrate the BMI pilot/slot/aircraft combination.
I wish this was different, and you are correct in saying Willie has played a blinder. He has realised the future threat and holds it over us. That is business, that is his job. He does however realise that allowing us the choice to vote for integration even with the reduction in terms allows him to keep a workforce more onside than if he imposed a new OpCo on the BA pilot workforce, and we all know he is not a man for idle threats with a fear of imposition!
Those without the ability to vote on this are welcome to dream their dreams of IA and holding fast to current working terms and conditions. If you do you are clearly not party to the information that we are being furnished with (much of which has been copied to this forum) or have no concept that the threats being held over us are immediate and far from idle.
As 757 has said, in the game or out. Those are our choices, there is no hypothetical middle, negotiated ground.
Jazzy
757 Driver is completely correct, there is nothing to add to his synopsis of the situation we are faced with.
Anyone thinking that some type of IA will leave us in a better position is dreaming. Bluepilot, SCOPE does not hold any protection for aircraft outwith the BA...not IAG umbrella, hence our desire to integrate the BMI pilot/slot/aircraft combination.
I wish this was different, and you are correct in saying Willie has played a blinder. He has realised the future threat and holds it over us. That is business, that is his job. He does however realise that allowing us the choice to vote for integration even with the reduction in terms allows him to keep a workforce more onside than if he imposed a new OpCo on the BA pilot workforce, and we all know he is not a man for idle threats with a fear of imposition!
Those without the ability to vote on this are welcome to dream their dreams of IA and holding fast to current working terms and conditions. If you do you are clearly not party to the information that we are being furnished with (much of which has been copied to this forum) or have no concept that the threats being held over us are immediate and far from idle.
As 757 has said, in the game or out. Those are our choices, there is no hypothetical middle, negotiated ground.
Jazzy
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757 Driver. Please.............your aggressive tone is not warranted.
As it happens i have a fair amount of experience in this field, have seen and been involved with it before. Believe me when i say you are being fed the best lines to impose change, that line is FEAR. Others here that may not be BA pilots have a wealth of experience and perhaps DO know what they are talking about.....perhaps in fact know a great deal more that YOU.
By restricting your "discussions" to only those involved etc is i would argue putting your own head in the sand.
As it happens i have a fair amount of experience in this field, have seen and been involved with it before. Believe me when i say you are being fed the best lines to impose change, that line is FEAR. Others here that may not be BA pilots have a wealth of experience and perhaps DO know what they are talking about.....perhaps in fact know a great deal more that YOU.
By restricting your "discussions" to only those involved etc is i would argue putting your own head in the sand.
Last edited by bluepilot; 15th Jan 2012 at 11:39.
The integration of bmi and / or any susequent "BA Express"type lower cost set up that might arise in the future is no more than a convenient smokescreen to get the T & Cs changes pushed through quickly and quietly on the cheap.
Does anyone really believe that if BA can increase their profits costs by setting up a new lower cost operation for the short haul network they will think twice about doing so ?.
The bmi buyout has come just at the right time to force through these T & Cs cost cuts, once they have been changed for the worse the excuses will be rolled out as to why it is still neccessary to set up a "BA Express".
Does anyone really believe that if BA can increase their profits costs by setting up a new lower cost operation for the short haul network they will think twice about doing so ?.
The bmi buyout has come just at the right time to force through these T & Cs cost cuts, once they have been changed for the worse the excuses will be rolled out as to why it is still neccessary to set up a "BA Express".
Last edited by mccdatabase; 15th Jan 2012 at 16:13.
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Studi
I agree totally with your philosophy. I firmly believe that if the majority voted "no", WW would still have to integrate bmi in order to minimise the losses. Without using BA as a vehicle to do this, he would simply amortalise the losses that Lufthansa have had to endure, for a considerable time in the future at IAG's expense.
Remoulding the shell of a company that is currently bmi, would cost too much and IAG shareholders would not be best pleased that vast sums of money were required to be pumped in to a standalone company in order to turn bmi around with new crewing, operations, premises etc.
Therefore I can not see it happening in a month of Sundays. Voting "Yes" may seem like you are protecting your position but in actual fact, it is more like firing a cannon at IAG from below your own waterline. From here, the ship can only go down
I agree totally with your philosophy. I firmly believe that if the majority voted "no", WW would still have to integrate bmi in order to minimise the losses. Without using BA as a vehicle to do this, he would simply amortalise the losses that Lufthansa have had to endure, for a considerable time in the future at IAG's expense.
Remoulding the shell of a company that is currently bmi, would cost too much and IAG shareholders would not be best pleased that vast sums of money were required to be pumped in to a standalone company in order to turn bmi around with new crewing, operations, premises etc.
Therefore I can not see it happening in a month of Sundays. Voting "Yes" may seem like you are protecting your position but in actual fact, it is more like firing a cannon at IAG from below your own waterline. From here, the ship can only go down
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The fact that BMI pilots are not being invited to vote on this also speaks volumes in my opinion.
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Studi, this is a load of cobblers!
If only because with bmi absorbed into BA there are no slots available to "set up BA Express"
If only because IAG is spending hundreds of millions to buy and absorb bmi (BA pilots are not being asked to supply hundreds of millions, only £10m)
There are no "less off days", we still will get the same number of days off, we simply have to finance the agreed difference!
The "promise" from Willy is the improved career structure and prospects that will come in time from changing the slots that bmi brings into use for longhaul expansion.
I don't think you have the faintest understanding of what is going on here!
exactly! That is why it is absolutely wrong to say yes!
BA pilots don't get anything in return for integrating BMI except the "promise" from hardball Willy that no new company will be set up. Anyone with the slightest realistic view of the world and industrial relations will see that this "promise" is worthless. Without a new scope agreement (that reflects the emergence of IAG) you are just giving Willy a few gifts for free:
1. pp34 for new joiners (very bad to sell out the new guys)
2. higher work hours
3. less off days
And the worst:
4. You actually help Willy to turn around BMI by helping him to dispose the BMI employees into BA at NO cost for him. This gives him much more management capacity to actually set up BA Express if he wishes so or to create other things to put you guys under pressure, as you just cleaned out his biggest problem and you even paid for it!
BA pilots don't get anything in return for integrating BMI except the "promise" from hardball Willy that no new company will be set up. Anyone with the slightest realistic view of the world and industrial relations will see that this "promise" is worthless. Without a new scope agreement (that reflects the emergence of IAG) you are just giving Willy a few gifts for free:
1. pp34 for new joiners (very bad to sell out the new guys)
2. higher work hours
3. less off days
And the worst:
4. You actually help Willy to turn around BMI by helping him to dispose the BMI employees into BA at NO cost for him. This gives him much more management capacity to actually set up BA Express if he wishes so or to create other things to put you guys under pressure, as you just cleaned out his biggest problem and you even paid for it!
If only because IAG is spending hundreds of millions to buy and absorb bmi (BA pilots are not being asked to supply hundreds of millions, only £10m)
There are no "less off days", we still will get the same number of days off, we simply have to finance the agreed difference!
The "promise" from Willy is the improved career structure and prospects that will come in time from changing the slots that bmi brings into use for longhaul expansion.
I don't think you have the faintest understanding of what is going on here!
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'BA pilots are not being asked to supply hundreds of millions, only £10m'
I'm not sure £3000 each is insignificant and what career structure is on the table thats better than the one that's already in place ?
I'm not sure £3000 each is insignificant and what career structure is on the table thats better than the one that's already in place ?
BALPA members have been sent a link (via their personal email account ) to access the online voting sysytem. If you haven't received this yet check with BALPA HQ to see that they have a current address for you.......
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Allowing BA's pilots to vote for their own destruction, is merely a psychological exercise by Willie. Once the BMI pilots are assimilated amongst the ranks of BA's legacy flight crew, the will to fight any further changes will be diluted.
It seems that this reversal for fortunes suffered by BA pilots, has caused a reassessment of what the cabin crew faced. According to a couple of CSD friends of mine, they are being everso nice to the cabin crew all of a sudden, as it dawns on them that whilst serving drinks in the cabins, Willie was sharpening his knife for them.
Voting YES to this deal is a short term fix for what lays ahead. BA flight crew should demonstrate a bit more perspicacity and see that a NO vote buys more time, and places the ball back in Willies court. The previous policy of appeasement has run aground like an Italian cruise liner. BA's cabin crew were right to sock it between the eyes to Willie, with a call for a 12 day strike over Christmas. That is the language Willie understands. If it had come off, rather than a Judge using tenuous legal arguments to overturn a democratic ballot, then it would have been all over.
A YES vote will cause disunity and mistrust, exactly what Willie wants. A NO vote could unite a majority against the common cause. Better to be hung for a sheep than a lamb perhaps?
It seems that this reversal for fortunes suffered by BA pilots, has caused a reassessment of what the cabin crew faced. According to a couple of CSD friends of mine, they are being everso nice to the cabin crew all of a sudden, as it dawns on them that whilst serving drinks in the cabins, Willie was sharpening his knife for them.
Voting YES to this deal is a short term fix for what lays ahead. BA flight crew should demonstrate a bit more perspicacity and see that a NO vote buys more time, and places the ball back in Willies court. The previous policy of appeasement has run aground like an Italian cruise liner. BA's cabin crew were right to sock it between the eyes to Willie, with a call for a 12 day strike over Christmas. That is the language Willie understands. If it had come off, rather than a Judge using tenuous legal arguments to overturn a democratic ballot, then it would have been all over.
A YES vote will cause disunity and mistrust, exactly what Willie wants. A NO vote could unite a majority against the common cause. Better to be hung for a sheep than a lamb perhaps?
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Count, you really are a cad. It is so amusing to read your posts - thank you. Please keep it 'Flowin' buddy, you're a treasure to behold. 
Boom.
You Doomsday experts are forgetting one thing:
B R A N D
Boom.
You Doomsday experts are forgetting one thing:
B R A N D
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Count
I love your take on things. So warped, but delightfully so.
I'd rather have Sarah Palin with her finger on the nuclear button, than listen to advice from you on how to vote.
Now, get back to your pot noodle in your room dear chap.
I love your take on things. So warped, but delightfully so.
I'd rather have Sarah Palin with her finger on the nuclear button, than listen to advice from you on how to vote.
Now, get back to your pot noodle in your room dear chap.