Ryanair F/O, where to go? CX, QR or EK?
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Ryanair F/O, where to go? CX, QR or EK?
Happy new years everybody!
In everyday operations we are taught to utilize CRM when we are faced with different problems and situations. The concept of CRM tells us to use information and resources from the crew and all other sources available to us. So this is what I’m doing now!
At the moment I’m an F/O on the 737 in Ryanair, based south of the Alps. I’m in my mid-twenties and single with no commitments at the moment. I have about 1700 hrs on type and 1900-ish hrs total.
My highest wish would be to work for a stable company back home in Scandinavia, but with the current climate that is probably not going to happen. So I need to take a look at some other options…
The way I see it there are three okay options for me at the moment:
Cathay.
Pro’s:
- Bases all over the world, a chance to come back to Europe.
- Union organized.
- Highest final salary?
- Best reputation of the three?
Con’s:
- Lowest starting salary.
- Longest time to upgrade.
- Old-fashioned strict working climate, highest cockpit gradient?
- No real flying for the first couple of years as S/O.
- Furthest away from home.
Qatar
Pro’s:
- Quickest time to command.
- A chance to be type rated on the 320. Time on both the 320 and the737 is a good thing to put on a CV if and when I want to come back to Europe.
- On the long haul fleet, less trips per month then Emirates?
Con’s.
- Doha, never been there, but haven’t heard much good about it, more conservative then Dubai.
- No pension?
- No European bases.
Emirates
Pro’s:
- Dubai, a better city for a young single guy like me?
- Biggest Scandinavian expat group?
- Probably end up on the 777, which at the moment has okay destinations. A good TR to have for the future when we are going to see more 777 freighters back in Europe.
- Largest route network.
- Pension.
Con’s:
- Longer time to command then Qatar.
- Highest working hours?
- Don’t have the hours. Still over a year away.
- No European bases.
Anybody with some good inputs?
Please note that I’m not saying that I would pass all three assessments, I’m not saying I’m God’s gift to aviation. But I will probably at least get the opportunity to attend all of them.
Thank you for taking the time to read!
In everyday operations we are taught to utilize CRM when we are faced with different problems and situations. The concept of CRM tells us to use information and resources from the crew and all other sources available to us. So this is what I’m doing now!
At the moment I’m an F/O on the 737 in Ryanair, based south of the Alps. I’m in my mid-twenties and single with no commitments at the moment. I have about 1700 hrs on type and 1900-ish hrs total.
My highest wish would be to work for a stable company back home in Scandinavia, but with the current climate that is probably not going to happen. So I need to take a look at some other options…
The way I see it there are three okay options for me at the moment:
Cathay.
Pro’s:
- Bases all over the world, a chance to come back to Europe.
- Union organized.
- Highest final salary?
- Best reputation of the three?
Con’s:
- Lowest starting salary.
- Longest time to upgrade.
- Old-fashioned strict working climate, highest cockpit gradient?
- No real flying for the first couple of years as S/O.
- Furthest away from home.
Qatar
Pro’s:
- Quickest time to command.
- A chance to be type rated on the 320. Time on both the 320 and the737 is a good thing to put on a CV if and when I want to come back to Europe.
- On the long haul fleet, less trips per month then Emirates?
Con’s.
- Doha, never been there, but haven’t heard much good about it, more conservative then Dubai.
- No pension?
- No European bases.
Emirates
Pro’s:
- Dubai, a better city for a young single guy like me?
- Biggest Scandinavian expat group?
- Probably end up on the 777, which at the moment has okay destinations. A good TR to have for the future when we are going to see more 777 freighters back in Europe.
- Largest route network.
- Pension.
Con’s:
- Longer time to command then Qatar.
- Highest working hours?
- Don’t have the hours. Still over a year away.
- No European bases.
Anybody with some good inputs?
Please note that I’m not saying that I would pass all three assessments, I’m not saying I’m God’s gift to aviation. But I will probably at least get the opportunity to attend all of them.
Thank you for taking the time to read!
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A good TR to have for the future when we are going to see more 777 freighters back in Europe.
Not going to happen.
If you go there it has to be for the better part of your career to make it pay and to make it work. There will be few if any 777 DEC jobs in Europe and if there were they wouldn't have to pay much because they wouldn't be short of applicants from the Sandpit. Your 737 time will be so long in the past that no one will care about it so it may as well never have existed and you will only be really suitable to small shoddy outfits.
L'enfant Terrible
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I'd take a look in Fragrant Harbour forums and see what the deal is at Cathay nowadays. It certainly isn't the highest payer by a long way!
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Absolutely do not take a look at fragrant harbour forum..it will give you a completely twisted idea about what life is like at Cathay from a small handfull of malcontents.
Life here is actually pretty good..about as good a salary you'll get anywhere which makes up for the long tome to command...about 11 years at the moment....as for bases..well the jury is out at the moment..I have it on good authority that they will open up again next year but long term the future is a bit more uncertain...certainly don't join if you definitely want to end up back in Europe..The guys you fly with will be exactly the same as those you would fly with for any other airline...mostly great, some less than great.
the main problem for you would be the woefully inadequate housing allowance..fine if you are a single bloke dossing with another S/O, but not if you are a family looking to settle in HK....then again its still better than flying a kingair in bergen or ontario
If you want to PM please do, but please please take what you hear on this forum with a very large pinch of salt
Life here is actually pretty good..about as good a salary you'll get anywhere which makes up for the long tome to command...about 11 years at the moment....as for bases..well the jury is out at the moment..I have it on good authority that they will open up again next year but long term the future is a bit more uncertain...certainly don't join if you definitely want to end up back in Europe..The guys you fly with will be exactly the same as those you would fly with for any other airline...mostly great, some less than great.
the main problem for you would be the woefully inadequate housing allowance..fine if you are a single bloke dossing with another S/O, but not if you are a family looking to settle in HK....then again its still better than flying a kingair in bergen or ontario
If you want to PM please do, but please please take what you hear on this forum with a very large pinch of salt
Last edited by sorvad; 3rd Jan 2012 at 07:36.
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Cathay. Believe me the low starting salary & the wait for command upgrade will be worth it in the end. Sandpits (Doha & Dubai) are good for a few years to earn $$ and build hours quickly (specially in EK) but as a career Cathay would be much more rewarding.Wish you a great career & many happy landings.
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Have you visited all three places? That would be first on my list of priorities. Not tarring you with the same brush but I never understand why people move to a new and culturally different country, sometimes with family, on the strength of their one sanitised visit for assessment. Then wonder why they don't like it!
My personal preference would be Cathay. Friends at all three and Cx guys seem happiest. It's also my favourite of the 3 places to visit. Years 1-3 will be tight though.
My personal preference would be Cathay. Friends at all three and Cx guys seem happiest. It's also my favourite of the 3 places to visit. Years 1-3 will be tight though.
L'enfant Terrible
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...about as good a salary you'll get anywhere
the main problem for you would be the woefully inadequate housing allowance
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B738driver:
Now I might be too quick to judge you here but I believe you are not quite correctly informed.
The wast majority of FR pilots would like to make FR a better place, anything else would be stupidity.
Even if you are only using FR as a career starter would you not rather make it a pleasant experience, to make it worthwhile?
If no one is looking out for terms and conditions back home, don't you think there is a great risk that it will become industry standard?
edit:
On topic: Sorry for mostly off topic.
I would also advice to go visit the places, if you can. And give it a long hard think if leaving Europe is what you would like to do.
You should only move away, in my opinion, because you want to, or have to (unemployed).
If you enjoy where you are at the moment, maybe it is worth staying and fighting for.
Now I might be too quick to judge you here but I believe you are not quite correctly informed.
The wast majority of FR pilots would like to make FR a better place, anything else would be stupidity.
Even if you are only using FR as a career starter would you not rather make it a pleasant experience, to make it worthwhile?
If no one is looking out for terms and conditions back home, don't you think there is a great risk that it will become industry standard?
edit:
On topic: Sorry for mostly off topic.
I would also advice to go visit the places, if you can. And give it a long hard think if leaving Europe is what you would like to do.
You should only move away, in my opinion, because you want to, or have to (unemployed).
If you enjoy where you are at the moment, maybe it is worth staying and fighting for.
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CX no longer hire on expat T&C's so talking to current F/Os or higher is pointless they will be on expat terms and/or possibly on a base.
So if you join today.
You will be on local terms!
Bases are over CX is only interested in basing expats to reduce costs and even that maybe becoming too expensive. Bases are currently no longer on offer.
The CX dream is over, it's just any other airline now.
No bases
Union is powerless under HK law (remember the 49ers)
No longer the highest salary on local terms
Reputation??? That's exactly why people still join???
S/O will be 3-4yrs
Pollution it's epic (you'll be here forever)
Expensive accommodation, expect to blow 30% of your salary.
Staff travel is expensive compared to other airlines.
It's reputation isnt anything like it was!
Read this!
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ransition.html
So if you join today.
You will be on local terms!
Bases are over CX is only interested in basing expats to reduce costs and even that maybe becoming too expensive. Bases are currently no longer on offer.
The CX dream is over, it's just any other airline now.
Cathay.
Pro’s:
- Bases all over the world, a chance to come back to Europe.
- Union organized.
- Highest final salary?
- Best reputation of the three?
Con’s:
- Lowest starting salary.
- Longest time to upgrade.
- Old-fashioned strict working climate, highest cockpit gradient?
- No real flying for the first couple of years as S/O.
- Furthest away from home.
Pro’s:
- Bases all over the world, a chance to come back to Europe.
- Union organized.
- Highest final salary?
- Best reputation of the three?
Con’s:
- Lowest starting salary.
- Longest time to upgrade.
- Old-fashioned strict working climate, highest cockpit gradient?
- No real flying for the first couple of years as S/O.
- Furthest away from home.
Union is powerless under HK law (remember the 49ers)
No longer the highest salary on local terms
Reputation??? That's exactly why people still join???
S/O will be 3-4yrs
Pollution it's epic (you'll be here forever)
Expensive accommodation, expect to blow 30% of your salary.
Staff travel is expensive compared to other airlines.
It's reputation isnt anything like it was!
Read this!
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...ransition.html
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People do not choose to go to Emirates or Hong Kong, they are forced to spend 10 years in these places, also judging by the amount currently going East walking back into Europe will not be a given either.
(Not pointing the finger at you Built4Speed but just using your post to illustrate my point!
)The Swede.... my advice is forget all the Ts and Cs and all the numbers for the moment. Go and visit HK, Dubai and Doha and see where you would prefer to live out of those three? Then based on that - take a closer look at the job itself.
Far too many people end up going to interviews thousands of miles away and they might have done their homework on the airline but they know very little about where they may end up living for many years to come!
Last edited by Mr R Sole; 3rd Jan 2012 at 03:08.
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B738driver:
You are making a very valid point and I agree with most things in your post.
But at some stage we have to think about what we want the airline industry to look like in the future.
We are the airline industry future, us the pilots.
No one will fight our battles or stand up for our terms and conditions unless we do it.
Reality is that FR is a really big operator that makes a really big impact industry wide.
What happens in FR today will happen in your new airline in 5 years.
If we do not stop the decease now, it will spread. Mark my words.
You are right though, at the moment FR is not worth more than for building experience, but it could be so much more, and it must be.
If FR does not change it will colour the rest of the industry in the long term, name an airline that is not actively looking for cost saving at the moment.
So to conclude:
I think we are being short sighted jumping airlines just because we do not like the current one.
You are making a very valid point and I agree with most things in your post.
But at some stage we have to think about what we want the airline industry to look like in the future.
We are the airline industry future, us the pilots.
No one will fight our battles or stand up for our terms and conditions unless we do it.
Reality is that FR is a really big operator that makes a really big impact industry wide.
What happens in FR today will happen in your new airline in 5 years.
If we do not stop the decease now, it will spread. Mark my words.
You are right though, at the moment FR is not worth more than for building experience, but it could be so much more, and it must be.
If FR does not change it will colour the rest of the industry in the long term, name an airline that is not actively looking for cost saving at the moment.
So to conclude:
I think we are being short sighted jumping airlines just because we do not like the current one.
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hmm
OK so you assisted FR with bringing down T and C´s, you paid for your application, interview and rating
....you accepted a non-schedule and various other crappy FR ideas ???? The old airlines had to follow suit to compete on airline fares ???? thereby bringing down T and C´s for the pilots who did not accept this FR world of yours.
Now you ask who would like to have you come and work for one of the airlines you helped bring down ( T and C´s) ?????
I suggest you stay with FR for the rest of your career, you helped create it....now you have to keep it happy.
Sorry for this to the rest of you, but these guy´s start to irritate me
....you accepted a non-schedule and various other crappy FR ideas ???? The old airlines had to follow suit to compete on airline fares ???? thereby bringing down T and C´s for the pilots who did not accept this FR world of yours.Now you ask who would like to have you come and work for one of the airlines you helped bring down ( T and C´s) ?????
I suggest you stay with FR for the rest of your career, you helped create it....now you have to keep it happy.
Sorry for this to the rest of you, but these guy´s start to irritate me
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Emirates. But only if you really like to live there and you accept the facts of an expats life. You might be able to come back, but I would not count on it.
I am with Cathay, never flown with Emirates, so it might be a " grass is greener" thing, but things ain't what they once were over here..
For me(!) the biggest problems at CX are the long time to command ( 15-30 years) and the high failure rates at command courses.
I am with Cathay, never flown with Emirates, so it might be a " grass is greener" thing, but things ain't what they once were over here..
For me(!) the biggest problems at CX are the long time to command ( 15-30 years) and the high failure rates at command courses.
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Go to EK and enjoy the 777 and the blazing hot sun. As you said, plenty of Swedes there at EK from what I have heard. Your relatives in cold Sweden will visit you often. Dubai will be much better for your social life!!!! 
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dg808c
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Unfortunately for you, many pilots who have gritted their teeth at FR are walking themselves into a plethora of airlines. And it isn't with the sole ambition to bring down their T&C's. Management do that. So take your 'Its all the fault of the Ryanair pilots' opinion and stick it to someone who actually gives a toss. It's and old and easy argument and simply doesn't change anything. The OP is asking a balanced and worthy question. I'm sure he or she will do well.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Unfortunately for you, many pilots who have gritted their teeth at FR are walking themselves into a plethora of airlines. And it isn't with the sole ambition to bring down their T&C's. Management do that. So take your 'Its all the fault of the Ryanair pilots' opinion and stick it to someone who actually gives a toss. It's and old and easy argument and simply doesn't change anything. The OP is asking a balanced and worthy question. I'm sure he or she will do well.
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not so
Callsign Kilo
Do not blame management, their job is to operate for the lowest possible cost, the shareholders pay them to do so.
Blame us, blame the pilots for accepting things just to get the first 2-3000 hours and then move on expecting things in legacy airlines to be unaffected by the impact of LCC and their conditions. Let us instead try to change things at airlines like FR first......then maybe we will have a good job in ten years time also.
Apart from that I am sure pilots from FR will do well in most airlines, I just wish they would give the rest of us a helping hand in maintaining resonable T and C´s.
And yes I know you do not care, but some of us do.
Do not blame management, their job is to operate for the lowest possible cost, the shareholders pay them to do so.
Blame us, blame the pilots for accepting things just to get the first 2-3000 hours and then move on expecting things in legacy airlines to be unaffected by the impact of LCC and their conditions. Let us instead try to change things at airlines like FR first......then maybe we will have a good job in ten years time also.
Apart from that I am sure pilots from FR will do well in most airlines, I just wish they would give the rest of us a helping hand in maintaining resonable T and C´s.
And yes I know you do not care, but some of us do.
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another thinking point is doing something different in life. career is not all about getting that 30yr service carrige clock - how boring. life is no rehersal. money is not the be all and all. i like travelling and in this job we get to do it.
just my thoughts.
discuss.
just my thoughts.
discuss.
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EK pilots seem to do OK..!
Emirates pilot buys New Zealand airfield for $2m - Travel & Hospitality - ArabianBusiness.com
Emirates pilot buys New Zealand airfield for $2m - Travel & Hospitality - ArabianBusiness.com
