Seniority: Good or Bad?
Here is the view of someone who is not a pilot but has had experience of the airline & rail industries. My father flew for the RAF but things are different in the military.
I can see the argument for seniority when you are up against nepotism - doubtless that is why the system was introduced many decades ago - but there is also the question of gradient. Everything improves with length of service - pay rate, ability to choose the best days to work, fleet, etc. Compare this with the rail industry where there is effectively a flat rate and in many cases (not always) a standardised roster which shares work equitably between all staff. As a result drivers and other staff were quick to move between employers - helped the union in negotiating higher rates no end when there was a shortage of trained drivers.
You could change the system so that increments are flatter (BA already has, by comparison look at US legacy carrier rates on ppjn) and introduce a system so that the most senior pilot gets his first choice, then the second most senior gets his choice etc. Once everyone has picked you start again. Its still seniority based but far flatter. (I saw a discussion of Carmen v Bidline on another thread.)
Seniority is essentially a zero sum game. Its up to the pilot workforce to push for changes. Why would an airline management wish to take on a union on an issue where there is no overall benefit to it? I seem to remember that in the days of the BA shuttle with its BAC111 back up flights a group of pilots who who spent most of their hours in the crew room getting bored waiting for a back up flight did start a job action (Rage) but I dare say that the senior pilots weren't that interested.
The question of merging seniority lists is interesting. The AF/KL & BA/IB approach of course is not to. With US carriers its a question of how stong the carriers are (pushed to its exteme with AA/TW where all the TWA staff went to the bottom of the list). I suspect that European employment law would prevent a repeat of AA/TW but what would happen is that the failing carrier wouldn't be taken over thus all pilots would go to the bottom of the list of their next employer. It could be interesting to see if a large number of BMI slots are sold if it could be argued if it is a TUPE transfer (probably not but I might try it if I flew for BD).
Seniority basically means that you get a better deal the younger you join a carrier. When will someone challenge this under EU ageism legislation?
A few years ago BALPA asked why the status of the pilot had decreased. I suspect that the status of a BA pilot is still quite high but years ago if you joined a flag carrier you didn't expect it to fail it was a job for life (and doubtless you got loss of licence insurance). These days airlines fail. The relative merit of AA & TWA pilots was based on the relative strengths of their carriers not how good they were. In most professions you can gain a reputation and carry it with you. Not in the piloting profession. Is this leading to a loss of status?
I can see the argument for seniority when you are up against nepotism - doubtless that is why the system was introduced many decades ago - but there is also the question of gradient. Everything improves with length of service - pay rate, ability to choose the best days to work, fleet, etc. Compare this with the rail industry where there is effectively a flat rate and in many cases (not always) a standardised roster which shares work equitably between all staff. As a result drivers and other staff were quick to move between employers - helped the union in negotiating higher rates no end when there was a shortage of trained drivers.
You could change the system so that increments are flatter (BA already has, by comparison look at US legacy carrier rates on ppjn) and introduce a system so that the most senior pilot gets his first choice, then the second most senior gets his choice etc. Once everyone has picked you start again. Its still seniority based but far flatter. (I saw a discussion of Carmen v Bidline on another thread.)
Seniority is essentially a zero sum game. Its up to the pilot workforce to push for changes. Why would an airline management wish to take on a union on an issue where there is no overall benefit to it? I seem to remember that in the days of the BA shuttle with its BAC111 back up flights a group of pilots who who spent most of their hours in the crew room getting bored waiting for a back up flight did start a job action (Rage) but I dare say that the senior pilots weren't that interested.
The question of merging seniority lists is interesting. The AF/KL & BA/IB approach of course is not to. With US carriers its a question of how stong the carriers are (pushed to its exteme with AA/TW where all the TWA staff went to the bottom of the list). I suspect that European employment law would prevent a repeat of AA/TW but what would happen is that the failing carrier wouldn't be taken over thus all pilots would go to the bottom of the list of their next employer. It could be interesting to see if a large number of BMI slots are sold if it could be argued if it is a TUPE transfer (probably not but I might try it if I flew for BD).
Seniority basically means that you get a better deal the younger you join a carrier. When will someone challenge this under EU ageism legislation?
A few years ago BALPA asked why the status of the pilot had decreased. I suspect that the status of a BA pilot is still quite high but years ago if you joined a flag carrier you didn't expect it to fail it was a job for life (and doubtless you got loss of licence insurance). These days airlines fail. The relative merit of AA & TWA pilots was based on the relative strengths of their carriers not how good they were. In most professions you can gain a reputation and carry it with you. Not in the piloting profession. Is this leading to a loss of status?
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With the recent pilot`s shortage the market is improving and are the contract pilots who are somewhat pushing the salaries up.
Contracts have been better paid through out the latest years , specially in Asia and the pilotīs constant moving from one company to another made HRs pay you better in order to keep their pilots.
Since pilots are more and more keeping away from unions ,we are now in the era of supply and demand.
I think seniority is bad for us all in this moment.
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Contracts have been better paid through out the latest years , specially in Asia and the pilotīs constant moving from one company to another made HRs pay you better in order to keep their pilots.
Since pilots are more and more keeping away from unions ,we are now in the era of supply and demand.
I think seniority is bad for us all in this moment.
My2cents
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I think seniority is essential in a role that is that of an operator. In business things are different, one generally has to justify ome's pay with your performance. With some roles, a good decision can directly loose or save thousands, if not, millions. Of course, without six monthly recurrent sim, the politics of seperating the bull****ers from the doers can be problematic.
With flying, our ability and suitability is easily measured, even if one disagrees with the metric. Therefore a merely competant pilot is unlikely improve the company's bottom line measurably more than Mr Situational Awareness. A pilot's lot is that the path is generally laid out for us (SOPs), all we have to do is follow it. Dealing with business related problems is genrally about flexibility (discretion, working on a day off, etc). Managing operational issues, are generally about remaing legal and identifying when plan has to change. This will never be a direct benefit to the business and caution usually costs a lot of beans.
So, in the same role, how can anybody justify a better package, other than loyalty?
With flying, our ability and suitability is easily measured, even if one disagrees with the metric. Therefore a merely competant pilot is unlikely improve the company's bottom line measurably more than Mr Situational Awareness. A pilot's lot is that the path is generally laid out for us (SOPs), all we have to do is follow it. Dealing with business related problems is genrally about flexibility (discretion, working on a day off, etc). Managing operational issues, are generally about remaing legal and identifying when plan has to change. This will never be a direct benefit to the business and caution usually costs a lot of beans.
So, in the same role, how can anybody justify a better package, other than loyalty?
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Sciolistes,
" Managing operational issues, are generally about remaing legal and identifying when plan has to change."
"when" plan has to change.... agreed..
But equally importantly "WHAT" new plan should be adopted with obvious implications costs wise. Some pilots - based on experience and knowledge - are better than others on that front in spite of their [sometimes] lower seniority within a company.
If they are not promoted before their less capable but more senior colleagues thats a potencial loss for the company. Winter ops will kick in soon: typically the kind of circumstances where real experience makes the difference in terms of non standard situations management with serious costs implications down the line...
"when" plan has to change.... agreed..
But equally importantly "WHAT" new plan should be adopted with obvious implications costs wise. Some pilots - based on experience and knowledge - are better than others on that front in spite of their [sometimes] lower seniority within a company.
If they are not promoted before their less capable but more senior colleagues thats a potencial loss for the company. Winter ops will kick in soon: typically the kind of circumstances where real experience makes the difference in terms of non standard situations management with serious costs implications down the line...
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I hear you, but a competant pilot is, by definition, able to cope. Their solution may or may not be optimal, but it will be safe and it will be appropriate. Competantcy will be perceived by some to be a subjective assessment. But organisationally, it will be objective. Hence seniority.
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Try telling that to short term focused managers. Do you seriously think airlines like RYR or others focused on cost and not service are gonna pay more just for the "Privilege" of having experience in the cockpit?
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So why would the airlines wish to operate in the same Darwinian reality as the rest of the world? Why would they want to be exposed to the harsh reality of those that fail are swept away, and the creme rises to the top? Better to hire robots that do what the airline says, because in the end, they just want guys to warm the seats. They haven't wanted pilots for years.
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Originally Posted by manutd1999
I don't think it's morally fair for a few long-serving captains to work practically when they want while newbies have to work ALL the bad shifts for their first few years.
Seniority is the ONLY way for a large group of professionals in the same company. It's NOT like law or medicine - show me a law firm that employs 3,000 lawyers!!!!
As for promotion - you get your go when your number comes up! If you haven't got the minerals then you fail. Simple!
One seniority number across all the airlines is not possible - too many variations in training, culture etc etc.
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It would be easy to implement a worldwide seniority system to allow people to keep the same payscale when they move between airlines, but airline bosses will never want to do it.
As for the bid-line aspect of seniority, it seems like its the same old scenario of people defending it when they have something to gain out of it and most other people supporting a change.
As for the bid-line aspect of seniority, it seems like its the same old scenario of people defending it when they have something to gain out of it and most other people supporting a change.
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What seems fair to me, will seem blatantly unjust and unfair to you. Truth lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I know of no pilot union, in any company wanting to get rid of the seniority lists, actually they insist on it as it regulates upgrades, preventing DEC( ask any SFO with 10-15 years in the right seat how he/she would feel about this)
I agree with some of the arguments against seniority lists, but they do contribute to peace and calm among the pilots in a company, giving them a chance to stand together against a management using divide and conquer tactics.
I will argue that you will find the most satisfied pilots in companys with a union and a seniority list, as predictability is important to many of us.
We do have a choice, if a quick command is important to you, choose contracting, and chase the best opportunity the market has to offer at any given time, if predictability, pension, and other benefits are more important, choose a company with a union and a seniority list. Simple ;-)
I know of no pilot union, in any company wanting to get rid of the seniority lists, actually they insist on it as it regulates upgrades, preventing DEC( ask any SFO with 10-15 years in the right seat how he/she would feel about this)
I agree with some of the arguments against seniority lists, but they do contribute to peace and calm among the pilots in a company, giving them a chance to stand together against a management using divide and conquer tactics.
I will argue that you will find the most satisfied pilots in companys with a union and a seniority list, as predictability is important to many of us.
We do have a choice, if a quick command is important to you, choose contracting, and chase the best opportunity the market has to offer at any given time, if predictability, pension, and other benefits are more important, choose a company with a union and a seniority list. Simple ;-)
Last edited by G.S. Willy; 30th Oct 2011 at 13:38.
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My abiding memory of a seniority airline, is the CC, made up of the most senior pilot 'reps', feathering their own nests very nicely thank you, always at the expense of the junior pilots. 
The disparity just got wider and wider, year after year. It was divide and conquer at its most effective. If there had been no seniority, their interests would instead have been aligned with all the other pilots.
Yes, we did try to get a junior bod in, but it wasnt easy, not least because they kept leaving, due to the terrible terms for junior pilots!
The disparity just got wider and wider, year after year. It was divide and conquer at its most effective. If there had been no seniority, their interests would instead have been aligned with all the other pilots.Yes, we did try to get a junior bod in, but it wasnt easy, not least because they kept leaving, due to the terrible terms for junior pilots!
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I'm for seniority when it works, at CX we have a seniority list.
BUT
We have had DECs
We have had DEFOs
We don't get leave in seniority
We don't get rosters in seniority
Upgrades in seniority are loosely based on the list but it's abused.
Our pilots don't leave because they can't afford to go to the bottom of another seniority list.
The most junior pilots got up to a 50% payrise our most senior 0%
Plus we have legal system that is completely corrupt, read "The 49ers the true story".
The sooner we're all guns for hire the better.
Correction we don't have DECs we have "Rapid Commands" you're hired at the bottom of the seniority list as an S/O, F/O or whatever within a week you're a Captain. This is what happened when CX took the Oasis crew.
BUT
We have had DECs
We have had DEFOs
We don't get leave in seniority
We don't get rosters in seniority
Upgrades in seniority are loosely based on the list but it's abused.
Our pilots don't leave because they can't afford to go to the bottom of another seniority list.
The most junior pilots got up to a 50% payrise our most senior 0%
Plus we have legal system that is completely corrupt, read "The 49ers the true story".
The sooner we're all guns for hire the better.
Correction we don't have DECs we have "Rapid Commands" you're hired at the bottom of the seniority list as an S/O, F/O or whatever within a week you're a Captain. This is what happened when CX took the Oasis crew.
Last edited by SMOC; 31st Oct 2011 at 02:25.
