Pilot or Tube Driver?
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Can someone explain why we even have Tube Train Drivers?
They operate an electric vehicle steared by tracks in a tunnel. The driver controls the speed and open / closes the doors. Yes there's more to it - including some safety aspects - but really, how much more?
They operate an electric vehicle steared by tracks in a tunnel. The driver controls the speed and open / closes the doors. Yes there's more to it - including some safety aspects - but really, how much more?
Fully automated railway systems are almost always new build. Never say never but which Mayor/Government would commit to such an undertaking?
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Tube driver or pilot ?
Quite simple really, you either want to be a pilot or you want to be a tube driver, if it's money you want don't do either ! No pilot in the company I work for earns less than 50k, the most senior F/O will get 95k, the most senior line capts 135K, some trainers earn more. Don't expect too much when you come out of flying school with your brand new licence and on the other hand don't be drawn into short term money on the tube for long term regret if you really desire to be a pilot. Things take a little time, with time and experience the outlook gets a brighter !!!!
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Can someone explain why we even have Tube Train Drivers?
A big part of a tube driver's job is figuring out what has caused the train to stop moving and getting it moving again.
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@SEAMASTER
you are right friend, in my company almost all the pilots who started from the bottom earned less than 500USD(yes no typo) per month flying light plan, with time and experience they got promoted to bigger machines and now earning 10 to 20 times more than what they got when they started.
Its not all about the money, if someone wants to be a pilot for the money then they took the wrong decision, most of us who joined this profession is because of passion. I earn very less but I am very happy with this profession, with time and experience I do believe I will move to the better
you are right friend, in my company almost all the pilots who started from the bottom earned less than 500USD(yes no typo) per month flying light plan, with time and experience they got promoted to bigger machines and now earning 10 to 20 times more than what they got when they started.
Its not all about the money, if someone wants to be a pilot for the money then they took the wrong decision, most of us who joined this profession is because of passion. I earn very less but I am very happy with this profession, with time and experience I do believe I will move to the better
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A big thank you to the tube drivers who have contributed to this debate. I've gained a small insight in to your rôle.
I am often cornered in the kitchen at parties by
who tell me, in all seriousness that "I don't do anything. The autopilot does it"
Sadly there are a couple of pilots here who have conveniently forgotten that experience.
I am often cornered in the kitchen at parties by
who tell me, in all seriousness that "I don't do anything. The autopilot does it"Sadly there are a couple of pilots here who have conveniently forgotten that experience.
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Don't blame the Tube drivers (or teachers) for getting themselves a good deal. Pilots are stunningly bad at acting collectively and in many cases will sell their own mothers for a job, command, overtime, with little thought at the longterm consequences. Well, after 25 years of racing to the gutter, now we can see the consequence, our differentials have disappeared!
More fool US.
ps there are one or two posts from old school contract holders in legacy airlines on this thread, they really need to know that they are the last generation left to get T&c's like that.
More fool US.
ps there are one or two posts from old school contract holders in legacy airlines on this thread, they really need to know that they are the last generation left to get T&c's like that.
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A big thank you to the tube drivers who have contributed to this debate.
Don't blame the Tube drivers (or teachers) for getting themselves a good deal. Pilots are stunningly bad at acting collectively and in many cases will sell their own mothers for a job, command, overtime, with little thought at the longterm consequences. Well, after 25 years of racing to the gutter, now we can see the consequence, our differentials have disappeared!
More fool US.
More fool US.
So, in terms of what pilots can do, for inspiration is simply t0ss all. weak and fractured unions in a competetive environment prevents progression in T&C's. when unions take harder lines to protect all pilots, not just those in Big Airlines and work with each other, in order to provide a cohesive representation, preventing one carriers disputes leading to a rise in traffic for other carriers, then the situation will continue to worsen and drive being a professional pilot further into the grounds of a temporary job rather than a career.
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Stuckgear,
a lot of what you say is right, but it shouldn't stop the unions taking up battles that they can win. The bosses have as much vested interest in keeping their airline solvent as the worker do, so will often compromise rather than risk disruption which hemorrhages money.
Just think of how the outcome of the BA cabin crew strike last year, would have been different, had ALL of the crew stuck together.
Divided we fall.
a lot of what you say is right, but it shouldn't stop the unions taking up battles that they can win. The bosses have as much vested interest in keeping their airline solvent as the worker do, so will often compromise rather than risk disruption which hemorrhages money.
Just think of how the outcome of the BA cabin crew strike last year, would have been different, had ALL of the crew stuck together.
Divided we fall.
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Pilot or Tube Driver ?
He has certainly put on a favourable spin to his career.
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Stuckgear, in the case of the Underground this is right on the money.
The overground nation network is also essentially a closed shop. To become a train driver you have to be trained by a TOC. No external training agencies. It would be futile to start one up because if a prospective train driver coughs up the equivalent of a full ab-initio to frozen ATPL and cannot find a company willing to take him on he can not even drive trains for fun. (Preserved railways excepted but you will be selling tickets and polishing locos for many years first).
I do not know what the airline industry can do to reverse the current system where we have a great number of aspirants to the RHS and the ability to independently train to fATPL standard. Probably nothing as it is not in their financial interest to do so.
Just a word on the standard of new '5 minute managers' that have been popping up over the last few years in the railway industry. Armed with a third from a former polytechnic they see the railway, LUL and Notwork Rail especially, as the last refuge of the desperate. This is where many disputes have their origins. Urged on by more senior management to implement change for profit (they wisely keep their heads down) they try to implement change without knowledge. When it backfires they are 'let go' and more cannon fodder recruited.
Roll on retirement.
what it seems to be is that the salary is there, because, quite simply the tube is a monopoly, strong union with a weak LU management that does what it must in order not to upset its service levels.
I do not know what the airline industry can do to reverse the current system where we have a great number of aspirants to the RHS and the ability to independently train to fATPL standard. Probably nothing as it is not in their financial interest to do so.
Just a word on the standard of new '5 minute managers' that have been popping up over the last few years in the railway industry. Armed with a third from a former polytechnic they see the railway, LUL and Notwork Rail especially, as the last refuge of the desperate. This is where many disputes have their origins. Urged on by more senior management to implement change for profit (they wisely keep their heads down) they try to implement change without knowledge. When it backfires they are 'let go' and more cannon fodder recruited.
Roll on retirement.
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macdo,
i understand what you are saying. And likewise I find myself in a contradictory place; While we need to see T&C's in the industry improve, it is also a competetive situation not only between airlines but also between regions and countries.
Personally, i think that we falling away as there is no solid promotion of the industry at a governmental level. We all know how aviation serves employment, trade and industry, international competetiveness etc etc. so don't need to run through it all again here and now.
A problem comes when decisions are made at a governmental level on policies of one department that specifically affect this industry and there is little to represent the impacts this has. Our industry encompasses the realms of the trade secretary, the home office, department for work and pensions, even through to the secretary for energy and climate change [sic], even throught to EU policy (eg EU-ETS), transport secretary and so on.
What this means is that policies are enacted from time to time that impinge on the aviation industry and lower the ability to be competetive in wider environemnt and while costs like fuel, lease rates and other overheads are largely inflexible, salaries are one of the few areas which can reduced...
So if a policy is brought forward that benefits other sectors of industry while is detrimental to the aviation industry the challenge to that may require the involvement and cohesive efforts of several governmental departments. The only way to address challenges to this industry is a fractured body of associations all with different representative body.
Some of the work these associations do is good, but some of it is misguided and wasted.
So back to T&C's, train drivers and unions. Perhaps we need to see a stronger body that is cohesive with associated representative bodies, rather than this industry being a 'can' that is kicked about?
i understand what you are saying. And likewise I find myself in a contradictory place; While we need to see T&C's in the industry improve, it is also a competetive situation not only between airlines but also between regions and countries.
Personally, i think that we falling away as there is no solid promotion of the industry at a governmental level. We all know how aviation serves employment, trade and industry, international competetiveness etc etc. so don't need to run through it all again here and now.
A problem comes when decisions are made at a governmental level on policies of one department that specifically affect this industry and there is little to represent the impacts this has. Our industry encompasses the realms of the trade secretary, the home office, department for work and pensions, even through to the secretary for energy and climate change [sic], even throught to EU policy (eg EU-ETS), transport secretary and so on.
What this means is that policies are enacted from time to time that impinge on the aviation industry and lower the ability to be competetive in wider environemnt and while costs like fuel, lease rates and other overheads are largely inflexible, salaries are one of the few areas which can reduced...
So if a policy is brought forward that benefits other sectors of industry while is detrimental to the aviation industry the challenge to that may require the involvement and cohesive efforts of several governmental departments. The only way to address challenges to this industry is a fractured body of associations all with different representative body.
Some of the work these associations do is good, but some of it is misguided and wasted.
So back to T&C's, train drivers and unions. Perhaps we need to see a stronger body that is cohesive with associated representative bodies, rather than this industry being a 'can' that is kicked about?
Last edited by stuckgear; 12th Oct 2011 at 08:16.
)
Stuckgear, in the case of the Underground this is right on the money.
The overground nation network is also essentially a closed shop. To become a train driver you have to be trained by a TOC. No external training agencies. It would be futile to start one up because if a prospective train driver coughs up the equivalent of a full ab-initio to frozen ATPL and cannot find a company willing to take him on he can not even drive trains for fun. (Preserved railways excepted but you will be selling tickets and polishing locos for many years first).
I do not know what the airline industry can do to reverse the current system where we have a great number of aspirants to the RHS and the ability to independently train to fATPL standard. Probably nothing as it is not in their financial interest to do so.
Just a word on the standard of new '5 minute managers' that have been popping up over the last few years in the railway industry. Armed with a third from a former polytechnic they see the railway, LUL and Notwork Rail especially, as the last refuge of the desperate. This is where many disputes have their origins. Urged on by more senior management to implement change for profit (they wisely keep their heads down) they try to implement change without knowledge. When it backfires they are 'let go' and more cannon fodder recruited.
Roll on retirement.
The overground nation network is also essentially a closed shop. To become a train driver you have to be trained by a TOC. No external training agencies. It would be futile to start one up because if a prospective train driver coughs up the equivalent of a full ab-initio to frozen ATPL and cannot find a company willing to take him on he can not even drive trains for fun. (Preserved railways excepted but you will be selling tickets and polishing locos for many years first).
I do not know what the airline industry can do to reverse the current system where we have a great number of aspirants to the RHS and the ability to independently train to fATPL standard. Probably nothing as it is not in their financial interest to do so.
Just a word on the standard of new '5 minute managers' that have been popping up over the last few years in the railway industry. Armed with a third from a former polytechnic they see the railway, LUL and Notwork Rail especially, as the last refuge of the desperate. This is where many disputes have their origins. Urged on by more senior management to implement change for profit (they wisely keep their heads down) they try to implement change without knowledge. When it backfires they are 'let go' and more cannon fodder recruited.
Roll on retirement.
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Redhill Phil. I sympathise. Still putting up with this bollox on a daily basis.
No pay scale for tube/train drivers (apart from trainees and one or two companies who stage full pay over 3 years) a qualified 22yr old is paid the same as a 64 yr old.
Hi MacGoonagal,
do you know what the upper end of the salary scale is for tube drivers?
do you know what the upper end of the salary scale is for tube drivers?
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Thanks for that, so Rail = LoCo as far as payrises are concerned. Although Pilots should be concerned about pay differentials and we have certainly lost ground over the years, there are still a hell of a lot of us earning a hell of a lot more than 50k. It is tempting for those at the bottom end of the scales to sound off here (with ample justification, having spent 100k to get a 20k a year job), but, and assuming we pilots don't allow further erosion of T&c's, we do have the oppotunity of earning around about 100k after a number of years and a few of us up to 150k. We, at least have career progression, where the tube man gets his 50k and won't be on a lot more in 30 years. (Bob Crowe having been retired by then).
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I applied to be a tube driver 2-3 years ago, and having past all the assessments and an interview back then, I have only just been given a start date for training this month! Since I applied as an internal candidate at TfL I've had to endure several organisational change reviews and I've seen more than half of my department culled. Somehow I survived all the crazyness and it's a nice surprise to find out thetube drivers salary has increased by £10k since I applied!
As an internal candidate I will retain my current salary while training and should I fail, I can go back to my old job, so there is really no downside to it for me.
Flying wise I am less than half way through my ATPL ground studies, but I'm honestly starting to think that it just doesn't make sense to fly for a living. The terms and conditions seem to be pretty bad everywhere.
I think I may just look at part-time instructing unless something good should just happen to turn up.
As an internal candidate I will retain my current salary while training and should I fail, I can go back to my old job, so there is really no downside to it for me.
Flying wise I am less than half way through my ATPL ground studies, but I'm honestly starting to think that it just doesn't make sense to fly for a living. The terms and conditions seem to be pretty bad everywhere.
I think I may just look at part-time instructing unless something good should just happen to turn up.
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macdo, you make a valid point, but one spends a long time in the RHS at the more desirable companies (like yours), years even, earning less than a train driver, 15 yrs possibly and in that time, house prices go up faster than affordability, if you take interest owing plus capital repayable on the average student loan plus FATPL and type rating into account.
You would have to engage an actuary to give accurate projections of capital accrual against investment expenditure to enable a purely financial decision to be made as to the best choice of career, and it sounds from this thread that the train drivers seem have the upper hand at todays prices.
In general, one thing that does stand out is the high quality of the postings from the train drivers, in stark comparison to the often rabid and grammatically challenged rantings that blight every thread on this website, purporting to be from qualified pilots.
Perhaps the fact that the mature, civilised and intelligent contributions to this debate mainly come from the train drivers and not from pilots (or people who say they are pilots) explains why the train drivers are taken more seriously by their employers.
You would have to engage an actuary to give accurate projections of capital accrual against investment expenditure to enable a purely financial decision to be made as to the best choice of career, and it sounds from this thread that the train drivers seem have the upper hand at todays prices.
In general, one thing that does stand out is the high quality of the postings from the train drivers, in stark comparison to the often rabid and grammatically challenged rantings that blight every thread on this website, purporting to be from qualified pilots.
Perhaps the fact that the mature, civilised and intelligent contributions to this debate mainly come from the train drivers and not from pilots (or people who say they are pilots) explains why the train drivers are taken more seriously by their employers.
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Fair point about the rantings sometimes lacking intellect. However, remember that many pilots do not speak English as their first language. So grammatical errors can surely be forgiven to some degree.
Ask the train drivers to make their posts in French and I am sure we would see a few wee errors here and there ;-)
Ask the train drivers to make their posts in French and I am sure we would see a few wee errors here and there ;-)