Second Officer - What does it mean on short haul?
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Second Officer - What does it mean on short haul?
Hi All,
I have an application in with Cityjet for their mentored scheme and am looking to familiarise myself with the term 'second officer'.
In trying to find out what would the starting take-home salary be for a cadet after flight- and type-training, I scoped out the WX page on pilotjobsnetwork.com and noted that there is an 'FO' and 'SO' salary, the lowest of which is E25,000 - while I am not in this for the salary, paying £78,500 for your training and taking home ~£21k while living near LCY or DUB doesn't seem to add up and I'd rather wait for something else with a better combination of living costs and pay.
My question being then, how long do cadets stay as an SO - what does it mean exactly in a short-haul context? Is it to do with base/line training, hours or something else? There is also 'duty pay' in the amount of E30 - is this to pay for expenses (hotels, meals etc.) down route and is it per sector? If so, how much can a SO expect to earn in addition to basic salary?
Apologies if I don't seem to know the basics. Trying not to be conscripted into the wannabe zombie army by making sure I don't go into this without thoroughly researching it first.
Thanks
I have an application in with Cityjet for their mentored scheme and am looking to familiarise myself with the term 'second officer'.
In trying to find out what would the starting take-home salary be for a cadet after flight- and type-training, I scoped out the WX page on pilotjobsnetwork.com and noted that there is an 'FO' and 'SO' salary, the lowest of which is E25,000 - while I am not in this for the salary, paying £78,500 for your training and taking home ~£21k while living near LCY or DUB doesn't seem to add up and I'd rather wait for something else with a better combination of living costs and pay.
My question being then, how long do cadets stay as an SO - what does it mean exactly in a short-haul context? Is it to do with base/line training, hours or something else? There is also 'duty pay' in the amount of E30 - is this to pay for expenses (hotels, meals etc.) down route and is it per sector? If so, how much can a SO expect to earn in addition to basic salary?
Apologies if I don't seem to know the basics. Trying not to be conscripted into the wannabe zombie army by making sure I don't go into this without thoroughly researching it first.
Thanks
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"wannabe zombie army", thats the best desciption of PTF I have read. Sorry, no offence intended to anyone.
To answer your question, each airline has its own def.of SO, in the old days tended to be LH cruise pilots, places like Cathay still use them. Build up your hours, length of service, experience, LPC/OPC, whatever the benchmark is, get an extra stripe, landing rights and a payrise (usually).
Nowadays, on SH, its often connected to the new cadets coming in on zero time schemes. In our outfit this is what the rules are:
A Second Officer may not operate as PF for take-off or landing in the
following circumstances:
Take-Off: Headwind in excess of 30 kts Crosswind component in excess of
15 kts
Landing: Headwind in excess of 30 kts Crosswind component in excess of
15 kts
Approach: Cloudbase: Lower than Minima + 300 feet
Visibilty: Visibility Minima + 500 metres
LVPs There is no restriction to any minima whilst operating as PNF
There are other minor restrictions with line captains and none with training capts.Promotion occurs after 2 lpc/opc's which are satis.
Obviously, line pilots will look closely at your ability and experience and might be more prescriptive in what they will allow you to do, (ie 220kts to 5 miles with a splitass turn to intercept will not impress, even if you pull it off), always remember the Capt. is protecting his own license (income) as well as the pax lives so try to impress by being very careful, SOP and professional. Again, no offense intended, but these days everyone loves a safe pair of hands.
As regards the rest of your points, T&C's vary almost on an individual basis. Sometime spent with the search function should uncover most of the traps regarding your prospective employer and plenty to compare. It is interesting to note that your Cityjet salary is precisely what I earned with my first employer, on turboprops, in 1997. No training costs, but bonded for 3yrs,18k. I'm sorry for you that you have reaped the whirlwind of the last five years of racing to the bottom. All you can do is bite the bullet and leave for a better job as soon as you can. Company loyalty is no longer given or received, so do not be backward in doing what is best for you. GL
To answer your question, each airline has its own def.of SO, in the old days tended to be LH cruise pilots, places like Cathay still use them. Build up your hours, length of service, experience, LPC/OPC, whatever the benchmark is, get an extra stripe, landing rights and a payrise (usually).
Nowadays, on SH, its often connected to the new cadets coming in on zero time schemes. In our outfit this is what the rules are:
A Second Officer may not operate as PF for take-off or landing in the
following circumstances:
Take-Off: Headwind in excess of 30 kts Crosswind component in excess of
15 kts
Landing: Headwind in excess of 30 kts Crosswind component in excess of
15 kts
Approach: Cloudbase: Lower than Minima + 300 feet
Visibilty: Visibility Minima + 500 metres
LVPs There is no restriction to any minima whilst operating as PNF
There are other minor restrictions with line captains and none with training capts.Promotion occurs after 2 lpc/opc's which are satis.
Obviously, line pilots will look closely at your ability and experience and might be more prescriptive in what they will allow you to do, (ie 220kts to 5 miles with a splitass turn to intercept will not impress, even if you pull it off), always remember the Capt. is protecting his own license (income) as well as the pax lives so try to impress by being very careful, SOP and professional. Again, no offense intended, but these days everyone loves a safe pair of hands.
As regards the rest of your points, T&C's vary almost on an individual basis. Sometime spent with the search function should uncover most of the traps regarding your prospective employer and plenty to compare. It is interesting to note that your Cityjet salary is precisely what I earned with my first employer, on turboprops, in 1997. No training costs, but bonded for 3yrs,18k. I'm sorry for you that you have reaped the whirlwind of the last five years of racing to the bottom. All you can do is bite the bullet and leave for a better job as soon as you can. Company loyalty is no longer given or received, so do not be backward in doing what is best for you. GL
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That is the reality of an apprentice cadet programme.
I do not know if your figures are accurate, but on the assumption that they are, they will be Gross figures and not "take home". To give you a general idea of what 24,000 euros (£21,500) looks like from a monthly take home standpoint:
£1,791.67
Tax free Allowances £622.92
Total taxable £1,168.75
Tax due £233.75 £53.94
50% tax rate £0.00
40% tax rate £0.00
20% tax rate £233.75
National Insurance £142.72
Total Deductions £376.47
Net Wage £1,415.20
That £21,500 has been whittled down to around £16,982 per year.
Depending on your financing, that isn't far off what the repayments would be for borrowing your training costs. In effect you would be living off your allowances. Those are only paid when you actually fly. They are taxed, not paid when you are sick, off, on standby, on leave, or during many forms of training.
Whatever the terms of this scheme, they usually remain in effect untill you have amassed a certain number of hours in company service. Generally speaking (if you fly a lot) this is around 2 years. You then move on to the regular salary structure.
Bear in mind that this is "apprentice level" remuneration. It is attractive to the company, and that is why you would be taken on from an approved course with so little experience into the righthand seat of a commercial transport.
I am afraid that the reality is, you will need to look at a much longer amortization period for your training costs than 2 years. Other companies may offer more or less, but the methodology is more or less the same.
I do not know if your figures are accurate, but on the assumption that they are, they will be Gross figures and not "take home". To give you a general idea of what 24,000 euros (£21,500) looks like from a monthly take home standpoint:
£1,791.67
Tax free Allowances £622.92
Total taxable £1,168.75
Tax due £233.75 £53.94
50% tax rate £0.00
40% tax rate £0.00
20% tax rate £233.75
National Insurance £142.72
Total Deductions £376.47
Net Wage £1,415.20
That £21,500 has been whittled down to around £16,982 per year.
Depending on your financing, that isn't far off what the repayments would be for borrowing your training costs. In effect you would be living off your allowances. Those are only paid when you actually fly. They are taxed, not paid when you are sick, off, on standby, on leave, or during many forms of training.
Whatever the terms of this scheme, they usually remain in effect untill you have amassed a certain number of hours in company service. Generally speaking (if you fly a lot) this is around 2 years. You then move on to the regular salary structure.
Bear in mind that this is "apprentice level" remuneration. It is attractive to the company, and that is why you would be taken on from an approved course with so little experience into the righthand seat of a commercial transport.
I am afraid that the reality is, you will need to look at a much longer amortization period for your training costs than 2 years. Other companies may offer more or less, but the methodology is more or less the same.
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The difference in CityJet between S/O and F/O is only that F/O's have passed their ATPL skills test so basically after 1500 hours (expect about 3 years).
It may not seem like a lot but you will be payed from Day 1 and will have your type rating paid for (although you will be bonded for 3 years). Also all accommodation will be paid for during training - even on your days off. After your line check and release to the line you will get hotel and breakfast on your overnights away from your home base.
Bearing in mind these numbers are a couple of years old for a DUB base so may be slightly out due to the changes in Irish taxes they will not be too far off.
For the first year I was left with about 1500 eur a month after taxes. After a year that rose to about 1900 eur net pr month. After getting your ATPL you can expect a further 400eur increase. On top of that expect 30 eur pr sector and 70 eur pr overnight so an additional 1500-2000 eur pr month which are tax free in Ireland.
Hope this helps
It may not seem like a lot but you will be payed from Day 1 and will have your type rating paid for (although you will be bonded for 3 years). Also all accommodation will be paid for during training - even on your days off. After your line check and release to the line you will get hotel and breakfast on your overnights away from your home base.
Bearing in mind these numbers are a couple of years old for a DUB base so may be slightly out due to the changes in Irish taxes they will not be too far off.
For the first year I was left with about 1500 eur a month after taxes. After a year that rose to about 1900 eur net pr month. After getting your ATPL you can expect a further 400eur increase. On top of that expect 30 eur pr sector and 70 eur pr overnight so an additional 1500-2000 eur pr month which are tax free in Ireland.
Hope this helps
