BA - lifestyle and work/life balance
FLR- Duty hours...
I don't think anyone in Longhaul at BA tracks their duty hours, they're more interested in Flying hours and/or days away from home, so as Sygyzy has said I doubt anybody can answer your question.
FWIW a average longhaul month might involve 18-20 "working days", ( just to be clear I'm counting any day that is impinged upon by work as a "working day", so a trip that leaves LHR late on a Monday and gets back early AM the following Wednesday is a three day trip). That month might be made up of say 6 X three day trips
or 4 X 5 days trips - all depends on the bidline gods. No Airport standby or standby downroute at all in longhaul and Home Standby is only done as part of a pre-allocated Reserve Month ( comes round every couple of years). Simples.
There's also the ability to flex the months up and down to a certain extent - work light one month ( e.g. one three day trip less), harder the next ( e.g. one trip more), though the amount of flexibility you'll have would depend to a great degree on your seniority.
Sorry if that doesn't answer your specific query about Longhaul Duty Hours, it's as close as I can get
I don't think anyone in Longhaul at BA tracks their duty hours, they're more interested in Flying hours and/or days away from home, so as Sygyzy has said I doubt anybody can answer your question.
FWIW a average longhaul month might involve 18-20 "working days", ( just to be clear I'm counting any day that is impinged upon by work as a "working day", so a trip that leaves LHR late on a Monday and gets back early AM the following Wednesday is a three day trip). That month might be made up of say 6 X three day trips
or 4 X 5 days trips - all depends on the bidline gods. No Airport standby or standby downroute at all in longhaul and Home Standby is only done as part of a pre-allocated Reserve Month ( comes round every couple of years). Simples.There's also the ability to flex the months up and down to a certain extent - work light one month ( e.g. one three day trip less), harder the next ( e.g. one trip more), though the amount of flexibility you'll have would depend to a great degree on your seniority.
Sorry if that doesn't answer your specific query about Longhaul Duty Hours, it's as close as I can get
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Sep 2011 at 15:01.
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I have been retired for about 10 years but a bit of history.
Definition: cap - credit to achieve pay
When bidline was first introduced (70's) there were 13 bid periods of 28 days in a year and the cap was 80hrs per 28 day period.
So 13 x 28 x 80 = 1040 hrs.
When there was a move to calendar bid periods there was a need to adjust that figure and hence 5 hours was added to account for the fact that there are 13x28+1 days in a year and +2 in a leap year.
The 4½ hr minimum credit was chosen as that gives, roughly, 18 working days in any 28 day period, think civil servant.
The cap varies by calendar month to take account of the different month lengths.
Flexi cap was introduced to account for seasonal variations in the available work.
Deleted bit.
The rest may have changed but probably not much.
For planning, trip credit is the greater of scheduled flying hours, scheduled time away from base divided by 4 (?), scheduled duty hours divided by 2 (?) or 4½ hours.
Actual hours credited are the greater of scheduled trip credit or achieved trip credit.
(It can actually be advantageous to grind round the Lambourne hold)!!
Leave/Duty Free Week is decided by a points system - perceived bad weeks (non school holidays) accrue more points.
Plan ahead if you may have a requirement in later life to have school holidays off.
A few words about bidding.
It is a dog eat dog process.
Spend some time reading the rules - many wont.
If you can't get what you want make sure someone else gets what you don't want.
Make time to do it properly - It used to take me a good afternoon every month.
Count how many bidders there are ahead of you and make that number of bids, avoid bids like "any trip line", "any blind line" (some are better than others) take time to put them in order.
Remember you can be wiped but usually the computer will keep trips already on the line.
Remember several will not be bothered, some wont want HEL (too cold), BDA (always a howling crosswind), Lagos (if you've been there you'll know why) and others will cock it up so you may be happily surprised what you get.
Do not bid (unless you particularly want it) for lines with fixed days off in the subsequent period (it may cock next month up, make sure someone else gets it).
Do not break the bank - life ruined for at least one month.
Remember, the more flexible you are the more happy you are likely to be and this includes when the rosterer rings you up (draft can be very lucrative).
My two penneth so I will try not to comment further.
Definition: cap - credit to achieve pay
When bidline was first introduced (70's) there were 13 bid periods of 28 days in a year and the cap was 80hrs per 28 day period.
So 13 x 28 x 80 = 1040 hrs.
When there was a move to calendar bid periods there was a need to adjust that figure and hence 5 hours was added to account for the fact that there are 13x28+1 days in a year and +2 in a leap year.
The 4½ hr minimum credit was chosen as that gives, roughly, 18 working days in any 28 day period, think civil servant.
The cap varies by calendar month to take account of the different month lengths.
Flexi cap was introduced to account for seasonal variations in the available work.
Deleted bit.
The rest may have changed but probably not much.
For planning, trip credit is the greater of scheduled flying hours, scheduled time away from base divided by 4 (?), scheduled duty hours divided by 2 (?) or 4½ hours.
Actual hours credited are the greater of scheduled trip credit or achieved trip credit.
(It can actually be advantageous to grind round the Lambourne hold)!!
Leave/Duty Free Week is decided by a points system - perceived bad weeks (non school holidays) accrue more points.
Plan ahead if you may have a requirement in later life to have school holidays off.
A few words about bidding.
It is a dog eat dog process.
Spend some time reading the rules - many wont.
If you can't get what you want make sure someone else gets what you don't want.
Make time to do it properly - It used to take me a good afternoon every month.
Count how many bidders there are ahead of you and make that number of bids, avoid bids like "any trip line", "any blind line" (some are better than others) take time to put them in order.
Remember you can be wiped but usually the computer will keep trips already on the line.
Remember several will not be bothered, some wont want HEL (too cold), BDA (always a howling crosswind), Lagos (if you've been there you'll know why) and others will cock it up so you may be happily surprised what you get.
Do not bid (unless you particularly want it) for lines with fixed days off in the subsequent period (it may cock next month up, make sure someone else gets it).
Do not break the bank - life ruined for at least one month.
Remember, the more flexible you are the more happy you are likely to be and this includes when the rosterer rings you up (draft can be very lucrative).
My two penneth so I will try not to comment further.
Last edited by finncapt; 9th Sep 2011 at 08:32. Reason: Incorrect bit deleted.
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Some of what Finncapt says is not quite correct.
Specifically
That is wrong. You do not get 4.5 hours credit per day for leave and duty free weeks.
You get a number of hours credit that reflects the proportion of the month that you have the leave/duty free. So, if you have 7 days of leave or duty free in February you will achieve 7/28 of the CAP for that month, and if you have 14 days in July you will get 14/31 of the monthly CAP towards your target.
A weeks leave will get you approximately 20 hours (and not 7 x 4.5 = 31.5 hours) credit.
So, running the annual numbers:
30 days leave = c. 86 hours credit
14 days duty free = c. 40 hours credit
4 days sim = 18 hours credit
1 day sep = 5 hours credit
Adding those up gives 149 hours.
1051 hours annual credit (max) - 149 hours gives 902 hours credit available for flying!
In Longhaul, most trips are flying hour based credit, ie 1 for 1, so 900 hours is achievable without overtime unlike what Finncapt says.
Indeed, the timing of your leave from one year to the next can cause issues. Say you had leave in June this year and August next year, then the leave credit from ne is replaced by flying the next June and the 900 hour absolute limit can cause a bit problem which may well determine your bidding strategies!
[Edit to add - retired 2009 - more recently than Finncapt!]
Specifically
Assuming you have 29(?) days leave, 14(?) days duty free week, 4 sim days and 1 ground school (sep) day per year which attract 4½ hrs credit (216 hrs) you must do 829 other credited hours to achieve max pay.
You will therefore be hard pushed to do 900 flying hours without overtime.
You will therefore be hard pushed to do 900 flying hours without overtime.
You get a number of hours credit that reflects the proportion of the month that you have the leave/duty free. So, if you have 7 days of leave or duty free in February you will achieve 7/28 of the CAP for that month, and if you have 14 days in July you will get 14/31 of the monthly CAP towards your target.
A weeks leave will get you approximately 20 hours (and not 7 x 4.5 = 31.5 hours) credit.
So, running the annual numbers:
30 days leave = c. 86 hours credit
14 days duty free = c. 40 hours credit
4 days sim = 18 hours credit
1 day sep = 5 hours credit
Adding those up gives 149 hours.
1051 hours annual credit (max) - 149 hours gives 902 hours credit available for flying!
In Longhaul, most trips are flying hour based credit, ie 1 for 1, so 900 hours is achievable without overtime unlike what Finncapt says.
Indeed, the timing of your leave from one year to the next can cause issues. Say you had leave in June this year and August next year, then the leave credit from ne is replaced by flying the next June and the 900 hour absolute limit can cause a bit problem which may well determine your bidding strategies!
[Edit to add - retired 2009 - more recently than Finncapt!]
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thanks guys- I've been working there for 4 months now and thats the most sensible description i've had of the whole process!
Finncapt how do you "make sure someone gets what you don't want"
??
Finncapt how do you "make sure someone gets what you don't want"
??
757 Driver
I suspect that's tied in with the old "never let anyone junior to you put your Bid form in the postbox" rule.. ( now pretty much obsolete in these days of computer bidding)
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Topbunk - I didn't think you were criticising and I am sorry if you thought it came over that way - I was pleased to be corrected and I opened the thread today to delete the incorrect bit (now done).
Unless it has changed, the way the system worked when I was around.
To ensure someone else gets what you don't want you need to make enough bids to make sure you get something you do want.
Suppose you are number 200 on the list (after you've discounted the sick, non bidders etc.) you must make 200 bids.
So if there are 250 lines and 50 of them you do not want then someone else will get one of them.
That means anyone who bids along the lines of any trip line or any blind line will get one of those 50 and not you.
Even if you are the bottom guy and you order all the bids you still stand a better chance of avoiding what you don't want as there are always those who forget, those who don't put enough bids etc., let them get the dross.
It certainly worked for me when I was a junior FO.
When I could change I chose a small fleet (Air New Zealand DC10) which had tailored bidline and worked to small fleet rules.
When I became a captain, I chose small fleets where I could hide until I was senior enough to get a decent bid.
Unless it has changed, the way the system worked when I was around.
To ensure someone else gets what you don't want you need to make enough bids to make sure you get something you do want.
Suppose you are number 200 on the list (after you've discounted the sick, non bidders etc.) you must make 200 bids.
So if there are 250 lines and 50 of them you do not want then someone else will get one of them.
That means anyone who bids along the lines of any trip line or any blind line will get one of those 50 and not you.
Even if you are the bottom guy and you order all the bids you still stand a better chance of avoiding what you don't want as there are always those who forget, those who don't put enough bids etc., let them get the dross.
It certainly worked for me when I was a junior FO.
When I could change I chose a small fleet (Air New Zealand DC10) which had tailored bidline and worked to small fleet rules.
When I became a captain, I chose small fleets where I could hide until I was senior enough to get a decent bid.
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thanks for that Finncapt - I'm on a smallish fleet (767) but I'm about 3 or 4 off the bottom at the moment however blindlines are keeping me happy at the moment. For now I'm ecstatic with the novelty of not being messed around, working what was published on the roster, not having 20 duty changes every week, not having 'makework' standbys filling up the roster, feeling my way around the network, seeing all (or most) of the destinations, staying in good hotels that are actually expecting me to arrive and even have a room booked for me, having a great organisation wherever I go and having a uniform that doesn't look like it came from a clearance rack at Primark.
Once theres a few more people below me next year and I've got a feel of what I prefer I'll start making some sensible bids ( and heed your advice well!)
Once theres a few more people below me next year and I've got a feel of what I prefer I'll start making some sensible bids ( and heed your advice well!)
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having a uniform that doesn't look like it came from a clearance rack at Primark.
Finncapt....I get your point, but there are 273(ish) senior to me.....life's too short to sort that many bids!! Besides, I seem to get into my top 20 most months. A wide demographic is a good thing!
Thanks for the explanation chaps....maybe BA could/shouldd provide it during the induction week...
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brit bus..
Take this very "tongue in cheek" but you'll be a bit upset if all the guys junior to you start adopting my strategy!!!
I used to think that bidding was a mathematical game of chance and it was an intellectual exercise to see if I could improve the odds in my favour.
I was one of those boring types who used to opt to nav both ways across Africa/Atlantic - it was more fun than bashing the HF every 40 minutes.
If you chose the LHR-BOS-PHL or MAN-PIK-JFK rotations you then got to do the short sectors in the RHS.
Take this very "tongue in cheek" but you'll be a bit upset if all the guys junior to you start adopting my strategy!!!
I used to think that bidding was a mathematical game of chance and it was an intellectual exercise to see if I could improve the odds in my favour.
I was one of those boring types who used to opt to nav both ways across Africa/Atlantic - it was more fun than bashing the HF every 40 minutes.
If you chose the LHR-BOS-PHL or MAN-PIK-JFK rotations you then got to do the short sectors in the RHS.
Last edited by finncapt; 11th Sep 2011 at 08:19.
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Finncapt (& others for info),
I understand you are retired, well since then there has been a rule change in BLRs, namely all TLs are no longer allocated: ones that are not awarded are broken up and the trips fall into stage 2 bidding. This may not remain the case in the long term as part of work coverage talks.....watch this space!
I understand you are retired, well since then there has been a rule change in BLRs, namely all TLs are no longer allocated: ones that are not awarded are broken up and the trips fall into stage 2 bidding. This may not remain the case in the long term as part of work coverage talks.....watch this space!
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For those of you working SH from Heathrow, how difficult would you say it would be to commute 1hr 40min in and 1hr 4mins back? 
Is it possible from bidline to get a couple of days a week overnight or do you have to do a whole tour of say 4-5 days? Is it possible to roster flights avoiding
rush hour?
I'm looking to commute from Wiltshire via A303 and M3.
Thanks.
Is it possible from bidline to get a couple of days a week overnight or do you have to do a whole tour of say 4-5 days? Is it possible to roster flights avoiding
rush hour?
I'm looking to commute from Wiltshire via A303 and M3.
Thanks.
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YYZ...
1hr40 each way is not unheard of...
SH lines are a mix of 1/2/3/4/5 day tours, in blocks, often of 6 days. Trouble is if you prefer 1 day ('Day Trips'), or say 4 day tours, it is hard to get a majority of them - the work is pretty muddled up.
Majority of Trips are "earlies" or "lates". Earlies report before normal mortals go to work, lates get home nearer closing time. The drive home from earlies / reporting for lates usually also avoids rush hour... The "senior" high credit day trips in fact can be the worst, with reports/clears in rush hour.
Bear in mind in the early years you'll be junior, and getting blind lines / "less popular" trip lines, meaning working every weekend, where "rush hour" is less of a problem
1hr40 each way is not unheard of...
SH lines are a mix of 1/2/3/4/5 day tours, in blocks, often of 6 days. Trouble is if you prefer 1 day ('Day Trips'), or say 4 day tours, it is hard to get a majority of them - the work is pretty muddled up.
Is it possible to roster flights avoiding rush hour?
Bear in mind in the early years you'll be junior, and getting blind lines / "less popular" trip lines, meaning working every weekend, where "rush hour" is less of a problem
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YYZ...
Your 1.40 on the 303/M3 is 30 mins shorter than my slog up the A303. It's fine - you just have to be realistic in your expectations and maybe scope out those places to crash at LHR when you end up with one of the really early reports, or a stray day trip between tours. As for blind lines, I can count on one hand the months I have failed to get a trip line in my 3 and a half years on the Airbus. They might not be the perfect line, but at least you can plan around them. eMaestro, the BALPA forum and Fleetlist all make swapping trips around quite feasible.
Drop me a line if you'd like any further info.
Your 1.40 on the 303/M3 is 30 mins shorter than my slog up the A303. It's fine - you just have to be realistic in your expectations and maybe scope out those places to crash at LHR when you end up with one of the really early reports, or a stray day trip between tours. As for blind lines, I can count on one hand the months I have failed to get a trip line in my 3 and a half years on the Airbus. They might not be the perfect line, but at least you can plan around them. eMaestro, the BALPA forum and Fleetlist all make swapping trips around quite feasible.
Drop me a line if you'd like any further info.
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Just as couple of questions regarding lifestyle at BA. First of all, are applications to change fleet decided by seniority and if so, does this make a fleet change after the minimum of 5 years on your starting type unlikely?
Secondly, it seems to be widely accepted that new First Officers work practically every weekend and have very little choice over their rosters, but I don't see how this can't be at least partly avoided. I think pilots get 4 weeks annual leave (?) Is there any minimum length of leave that can be taken at a time, or could you say use 10/15 days of leave to book off 5/6 weekends and a few special family occasions over the course of a year? If you did this and got lucky/bidded tactically you could surely get around 1 weekend a month off?
Secondly, it seems to be widely accepted that new First Officers work practically every weekend and have very little choice over their rosters, but I don't see how this can't be at least partly avoided. I think pilots get 4 weeks annual leave (?) Is there any minimum length of leave that can be taken at a time, or could you say use 10/15 days of leave to book off 5/6 weekends and a few special family occasions over the course of a year? If you did this and got lucky/bidded tactically you could surely get around 1 weekend a month off?
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Just as couple of questions regarding lifestyle at BA. First of all, are applications to change fleet decided by seniority and if so, does this make a fleet change after the minimum of 5 years on your starting type unlikely?
*This doesn't strictly apply to command bids. You must have sufficient experience (ATPL, hours, etc) and then it entitles you to the course not the command. You'll only get the command if you pass the course.
Secondly, it seems to be widely accepted that new First Officers work practically every weekend and have very little choice over their rosters, but I don't see how this can't be at least partly avoided. I think pilots get 4 weeks annual leave (?) Is there any minimum length of leave that can be taken at a time, or could you say use 10/15 days of leave to book off 5/6 weekends and a few special family occasions over the course of a year? If you did this and got lucky/bidded tactically you could surely get around 1 weekend a month off?
In essence, you can guarantee six weekends a year from leave (plus a couple extra through tactical bidding if you play your cards right) and one weekend each time you do a reserve block.