Virgin Atlantic Pilot Strike Ballot
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In a fleet of 38 aircraft which are a mix of 4 engined boeing 747 and airbus a340/300/600 the average age is 6 years old........hardly tired.
Twenty one new aircraft are currently on order including the a380 and B787.
"Beardy" as you so disrespectfully call Sir Richard, is not in a rush to sell his privately owned majority stake in a national carrier.....nor is he likely to sell his private island anytime soon or the 400 other companies in his group.
He is window shopping at the moment.....as all good BILLIONAIRES can!!!
Quote "I'm sure the pilots at VS know what they are dealing with"
Seen it all before and still cant work out the smoke and mirrors tactics so I'll just hit the lnav vnav let the FD fly "you have control, I'll do radios" and wait with the other 96% to see what transpires.
Twenty one new aircraft are currently on order including the a380 and B787.
"Beardy" as you so disrespectfully call Sir Richard, is not in a rush to sell his privately owned majority stake in a national carrier.....nor is he likely to sell his private island anytime soon or the 400 other companies in his group.
He is window shopping at the moment.....as all good BILLIONAIRES can!!!
Quote "I'm sure the pilots at VS know what they are dealing with"
Seen it all before and still cant work out the smoke and mirrors tactics so I'll just hit the lnav vnav let the FD fly "you have control, I'll do radios" and wait with the other 96% to see what transpires.
Last edited by p7lot; 26th Jun 2011 at 12:00.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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The company carried out a staff survey last autumn and the flight ops management are reported to have achieved a 6% approval rating.6%
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I think what we know p7lot is that VIRGIN the airline, has always been Beardy's little "trainset" and the icing on the cake of his empire. He may decide to fund its losses indefinitely.
Therefore if the business is not run on established fiscal rules, it is OK for VIRGIN pilots to strike and make Branson shell out to keep his "four engines for longhaul" jets in the air.
Good luck to VS pilots!!
Therefore if the business is not run on established fiscal rules, it is OK for VIRGIN pilots to strike and make Branson shell out to keep his "four engines for longhaul" jets in the air.
Good luck to VS pilots!!
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Richard Knows What Is Happening
This is not a case of the King not knowing what his executives/managers are doing.
Branson directs from on top (V.A being one of his prime investments), so he is the man pushing his management team hard to screw down wages/conidtions.
His open letter is a PR spin doctors dream document
You only get what you fight for, Branson is a billionaire not because he is a nice guy but a hard business man
I can only hope I am proved by Richard.
Branson directs from on top (V.A being one of his prime investments), so he is the man pushing his management team hard to screw down wages/conidtions.
His open letter is a PR spin doctors dream document
You only get what you fight for, Branson is a billionaire not because he is a nice guy but a hard business man
I can only hope I am proved by Richard.
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Looks like Branson has fallen for the poisonous HR led attack on the union. With a dismally low approval rating of just 6% for the current Flight Operations management team (independently sourced staff satisfaction survey commissioned by Virgin Atlantic) the pilots are obviously fed up with more than just the headline pay offer.
Any management team that can lead a company into a strike where an almost unprecedented, overwhelming 97% (94% of all pilots) voted for industrial action surely needs to look at where it has gone wrong. If pilots haven't been on strike for 34 years you can't call this a militant group of workers.
It would appear that this ruinous management team are hoping that the wrath of public opinion against the pilots will carry them through. Very sad as this looks like being the end for Virgin Atlantic. The pilots will strike and most probably will risk bringing the company down.
Boeing and Airbus both predict massive shortages of experienced airline pilots over the next 20 years so an experienced workforce should have little problem finding new jobs even though it will mean a period of hardship and upheaval. With Branson having swallowed the advice of his management team, he will let them try and break the union. If his company is so precariously balanced on whether he can afford to pay his pilots then perhaps it is time for the demise of his airline.
Any management team that can lead a company into a strike where an almost unprecedented, overwhelming 97% (94% of all pilots) voted for industrial action surely needs to look at where it has gone wrong. If pilots haven't been on strike for 34 years you can't call this a militant group of workers.
It would appear that this ruinous management team are hoping that the wrath of public opinion against the pilots will carry them through. Very sad as this looks like being the end for Virgin Atlantic. The pilots will strike and most probably will risk bringing the company down.
Boeing and Airbus both predict massive shortages of experienced airline pilots over the next 20 years so an experienced workforce should have little problem finding new jobs even though it will mean a period of hardship and upheaval. With Branson having swallowed the advice of his management team, he will let them try and break the union. If his company is so precariously balanced on whether he can afford to pay his pilots then perhaps it is time for the demise of his airline.
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OK guys, here is my lowly SLF perspective;-
One of my children is in mid teens and important exams and results are looming. The family decided last year to save hard and have a "once in a lifetime" holiday whilst we are all together. I have a well paid job but tried not to live beyond my means (the car on my drive is 10 years old) and not taken many overseas holidays so this is the big one, a full three weeks away, never managed it before. Departure in a few weeks and now we are dealing with the uncertainty around the strike.
Yes I have holiday insurance but I can't book any entertainment at the destination as this would not be covered (and no, it’s not Florida). I can't make other travel arrangements because I would loose all my money as I would have cancelled. This is what I would like to do to make sure we get there but obviously cannot afford to loose the money. So the alternative is to wait until the planned departure date. In the meantime, my spouse is having trouble sleeping with worry about getting on holiday. Irrational and illogical I concede, but nevertheless this is the situation I find myself in and I am extremely worried about their health with several weeks to go before departure.
So we wait for the departure day to arrive. Now suppose the strike has resulted in disprution and we cannot travel, will there be capacity elsewhere to transport us? if there is, how long will we have to wait? What if there isn't and the only option is to get our money back or travel again within three months? OK, so I have may not have lost out financially but the time has gone. I will not take my children our of school during term time and there will be no opportunity for three weeks holiday until next summer when other circumstances dictate that it will not be possible to take three weeks.
Am I selfish? Probably - if looking after your family is selfish then yes, and proud of it!
Do I think the striking pilots are selfish? Yes, they are taking away something we have looked forward to for so long and we will not have the chance to do this again. Maybe I am lucky, my employer recognized the sacrifices the workforce made to get through the lean times and has looked after and recompensed us for thissince. I don't understand the full issues behind the ballotas I believe the press only reports "populist" views. I haven't bought a paper for years and it would be really good to get and understand the full reasons for this action.
Do I expect your sympathy? No, there will be thousands of people like me and my family and I don't expect you to alter your view or behaviour because of my "sob story", but this is the reason why strikes do not work, they punish the wrong people, they punish the innocent. If I had a dispute with my employer I would not expect that to affect third parties, as you do.
Do I expect to be "slagged" off? No, I expect my views to be treated with respect. My perspective is different to everyone else’s. This is the truth as I see it, you must consider you own situation.
Wiil I book with Virgin again? I don't know but would not rule it out. My partner says definately not but I am not that naive, however Virgin won’t be our first choice (as it was for this holiday).
What would I like to happen? Ideally the strike not to go ahead. If that is not possible we need to know the dates as soon as possible so that we can make arrangements instead of being stuck “in limbo” and think the union should make these dates public immediately so that the thousands like us can plan ahead. I heard that Virgin carry 15,000 passengers a day. If this is true then this could potentially affect around 900,000 people between 4 July (the first possible strike day as I write this) and the end of the school summer holidays. We have always found the last few weeks before a holiday an important time for planning the finer detail. That too has been taken away from us, we cannot do anything until we have some details of the strike. If we are disrupted, then we want an alternative carrier to transport us but we don’t know how realistic that will be.
Am I worried? Very. I am trying to stay calm and positive for my partner but it’s not easy. Lack of information, bland promises of “unaffected service” from the Virgin website and no tangible alternatives do not give us any comfort and confidence that we will be able to go on holiday.
So there you have it, a view from a very worried SLF.
Good luck to us all!
One of my children is in mid teens and important exams and results are looming. The family decided last year to save hard and have a "once in a lifetime" holiday whilst we are all together. I have a well paid job but tried not to live beyond my means (the car on my drive is 10 years old) and not taken many overseas holidays so this is the big one, a full three weeks away, never managed it before. Departure in a few weeks and now we are dealing with the uncertainty around the strike.
Yes I have holiday insurance but I can't book any entertainment at the destination as this would not be covered (and no, it’s not Florida). I can't make other travel arrangements because I would loose all my money as I would have cancelled. This is what I would like to do to make sure we get there but obviously cannot afford to loose the money. So the alternative is to wait until the planned departure date. In the meantime, my spouse is having trouble sleeping with worry about getting on holiday. Irrational and illogical I concede, but nevertheless this is the situation I find myself in and I am extremely worried about their health with several weeks to go before departure.
So we wait for the departure day to arrive. Now suppose the strike has resulted in disprution and we cannot travel, will there be capacity elsewhere to transport us? if there is, how long will we have to wait? What if there isn't and the only option is to get our money back or travel again within three months? OK, so I have may not have lost out financially but the time has gone. I will not take my children our of school during term time and there will be no opportunity for three weeks holiday until next summer when other circumstances dictate that it will not be possible to take three weeks.
Am I selfish? Probably - if looking after your family is selfish then yes, and proud of it!
Do I think the striking pilots are selfish? Yes, they are taking away something we have looked forward to for so long and we will not have the chance to do this again. Maybe I am lucky, my employer recognized the sacrifices the workforce made to get through the lean times and has looked after and recompensed us for thissince. I don't understand the full issues behind the ballotas I believe the press only reports "populist" views. I haven't bought a paper for years and it would be really good to get and understand the full reasons for this action.
Do I expect your sympathy? No, there will be thousands of people like me and my family and I don't expect you to alter your view or behaviour because of my "sob story", but this is the reason why strikes do not work, they punish the wrong people, they punish the innocent. If I had a dispute with my employer I would not expect that to affect third parties, as you do.
Do I expect to be "slagged" off? No, I expect my views to be treated with respect. My perspective is different to everyone else’s. This is the truth as I see it, you must consider you own situation.
Wiil I book with Virgin again? I don't know but would not rule it out. My partner says definately not but I am not that naive, however Virgin won’t be our first choice (as it was for this holiday).
What would I like to happen? Ideally the strike not to go ahead. If that is not possible we need to know the dates as soon as possible so that we can make arrangements instead of being stuck “in limbo” and think the union should make these dates public immediately so that the thousands like us can plan ahead. I heard that Virgin carry 15,000 passengers a day. If this is true then this could potentially affect around 900,000 people between 4 July (the first possible strike day as I write this) and the end of the school summer holidays. We have always found the last few weeks before a holiday an important time for planning the finer detail. That too has been taken away from us, we cannot do anything until we have some details of the strike. If we are disrupted, then we want an alternative carrier to transport us but we don’t know how realistic that will be.
Am I worried? Very. I am trying to stay calm and positive for my partner but it’s not easy. Lack of information, bland promises of “unaffected service” from the Virgin website and no tangible alternatives do not give us any comfort and confidence that we will be able to go on holiday.
So there you have it, a view from a very worried SLF.
Good luck to us all!
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Maybe many of these Virgin pilots have been spending too much time in France and the "Je fais la greve" is spreading?
Accept Richard's letter and back to work as normal lads!
Accept Richard's letter and back to work as normal lads!
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rcg11x, perhaps you should focus your questions on the Virgin Atlantic management who have allowed industrial relation with their pilots to deteriorate to this level rather than just blame the pilots. It takes two to tango and you have to question the quality of management that is prepared to let their customers suffer for the sake of their overblown egos.
The Virgin pilots have not been offered any pay deal which is why they have balloted for industrial action. Pay negotiations were entered into last November yet the management team will not allow the union to ballot its members on any pay offer as they refuse to allow the offer to be put to the members unless the Balpa reps recommend the deal.
The management have not budged from their initial (non) offer since November and so the pilots have decided that they have no other option but to take industrial action. The intransigence of the management by refusing to allow a ballot on their supposed offer is the main reason that the pilots are taking the action even though they know that it will do much harm, not only to the airline and its customers but also to themselves.
They are not a bunch of militant lefties but a mature, well educated individuals with large responsibilities. They have been pushed into this corner by an an HR led assault on their working conditions and derisory pay (non) offers.
The engineers at Virgin decided a few years ago to give up their collective bargaining rights and have since had similar derisory pay rises imposed upon them. The pilots are not about to follow in their footsteps and are unanimous in their determination to prevent the HR department from fulfilling their promise of destroying the union.
Please direct your frustration at the Virgin management who are the real cause of the dispute. You wont get a straight answer because they are mostly revolving door managers who are using Virgin as a cash machine and will, during the course of many pilots and other employees careers, move on to other companies where they will apply their greedy and egoistic tactics to generate yet more chaos and disruption.
The Virgin pilots have not been offered any pay deal which is why they have balloted for industrial action. Pay negotiations were entered into last November yet the management team will not allow the union to ballot its members on any pay offer as they refuse to allow the offer to be put to the members unless the Balpa reps recommend the deal.
The management have not budged from their initial (non) offer since November and so the pilots have decided that they have no other option but to take industrial action. The intransigence of the management by refusing to allow a ballot on their supposed offer is the main reason that the pilots are taking the action even though they know that it will do much harm, not only to the airline and its customers but also to themselves.
They are not a bunch of militant lefties but a mature, well educated individuals with large responsibilities. They have been pushed into this corner by an an HR led assault on their working conditions and derisory pay (non) offers.
The engineers at Virgin decided a few years ago to give up their collective bargaining rights and have since had similar derisory pay rises imposed upon them. The pilots are not about to follow in their footsteps and are unanimous in their determination to prevent the HR department from fulfilling their promise of destroying the union.
Please direct your frustration at the Virgin management who are the real cause of the dispute. You wont get a straight answer because they are mostly revolving door managers who are using Virgin as a cash machine and will, during the course of many pilots and other employees careers, move on to other companies where they will apply their greedy and egoistic tactics to generate yet more chaos and disruption.
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I find this hard to deal with. VS pilots complaining that Virgin wants to "bust" their union, yet BALPA remained "neutral" when hundreds of its members at BA volunteered to work as cabin crew, in a dispute that was all about union busting.
Beardy says it all in his blog. He is obviously "hurt" that his pilots might strike, even though working in a fun place doesn't pay the bills. Why should a VS 747-400 pilot earn less than a BA one?
The reason why, is that for years VS had a steady supply of retired BA Captains who were happy to earn a lower wage at VIRGIN, as they had their big, fat, BA pensions to top them up. Now that the retirement age is no longer 55 at BA, that stream of pilots has dried up.
Virgin do not want to talk to BALPA as they rather the association did not exist. All I say to the VS pilots is to study what BA management attempted with its cabin crew and how their union and the reps were treated, to view the similarities with your own dispute. There is a blueprint here that management of some companies is adopting:
1. You provoke a strike
2. You quickly defeat it and the union.
3. End of collective bargaining.
BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.
VS flight crew must be ready for all that will be thrown at them.
Beardy says it all in his blog. He is obviously "hurt" that his pilots might strike, even though working in a fun place doesn't pay the bills. Why should a VS 747-400 pilot earn less than a BA one?
The reason why, is that for years VS had a steady supply of retired BA Captains who were happy to earn a lower wage at VIRGIN, as they had their big, fat, BA pensions to top them up. Now that the retirement age is no longer 55 at BA, that stream of pilots has dried up.
Virgin do not want to talk to BALPA as they rather the association did not exist. All I say to the VS pilots is to study what BA management attempted with its cabin crew and how their union and the reps were treated, to view the similarities with your own dispute. There is a blueprint here that management of some companies is adopting:
1. You provoke a strike
2. You quickly defeat it and the union.
3. End of collective bargaining.
BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.
VS flight crew must be ready for all that will be thrown at them.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 27th Jun 2011 at 14:29.
Maybe I'm being daft, but why was the BA CC strike a CEO -led strike, whilst the Virgin strike is an "HR led" strike?
Surely, if the workers and Directors wish to piss of their customers as much as they have done for rcg, above, then it is a CEO - led strike?
Surely it is the CEO that wants to piss off the customers, rather than HR??
Surely, if the workers and Directors wish to piss of their customers as much as they have done for rcg, above, then it is a CEO - led strike?
Surely it is the CEO that wants to piss off the customers, rather than HR??
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Peedoff,
Don't disagree with you, the Management have played an active/inactive (delete as you wish) part in arriving at this situation!
If you could give me the number of someone in authority, I'd glady "have a go".....
Don't disagree with you, the Management have played an active/inactive (delete as you wish) part in arriving at this situation!
If you could give me the number of someone in authority, I'd glady "have a go".....
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1. You provoke a strike
2. You quickly defeat it and the union.
3. End of collective bargaining.
BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.
2. You quickly defeat it and the union.
3. End of collective bargaining.
BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.
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Don't fall for Sir Dickie's blackmail tactic of saying the current offer will evaporate. Keep on course and they'll offer you better behind closed doors in the run up to the action. That's my opinion of the likely outcome.
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I don't think it is possible to successfully run an airline for very long, with front line staff who only have 5 days training.
VS and BA pilots can soon be replaced. There are hundreds out there who are qualified to do our jobs. Remember that Yellow Pen.
VS and BA pilots can soon be replaced. There are hundreds out there who are qualified to do our jobs. Remember that Yellow Pen.
Pilots can easily be replaced? Really?
A type rating and line training takes approximately three months with approximately 12 six hour sims and 10 ten hour flights. That's 172 hours of instructor time. Multiplied by 750 pilots that's 54000 hours or 2250 days of training. Training supplied by, you guessed it, other pilots!
That's a strong bargaining point I think!
As YP states, reality really isn't your strong point.
A type rating and line training takes approximately three months with approximately 12 six hour sims and 10 ten hour flights. That's 172 hours of instructor time. Multiplied by 750 pilots that's 54000 hours or 2250 days of training. Training supplied by, you guessed it, other pilots!
That's a strong bargaining point I think!
As YP states, reality really isn't your strong point.