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Wage Slaves? - RAeS article on P2F

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Wage Slaves? - RAeS article on P2F

Old 12th May 2011, 19:23
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Exclamation Wage Slaves? - RAeS article on P2F

The Royal Aeronautical Society magazine Aerospace International has published an in depth article about Pay to fly schemes in the latest edition (May 2011).

It covers the advent of self sponsored type ratings and the more recent pay for "line training" schemes.
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Old 12th May 2011, 19:45
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Too little, too late.

Aviation authorities worlwide should, and should have long ago, jumped on these "pimp my ride" scheming bar-stewards.

It truly disgusts me to see Flight International accepting Ads from AFA via Eagle Jet offering A320 time (with fare paying punters behind you) in a Turkish "airline" Ha bloody Ha!! for 70 an hour up to 100hr, reducing to 50 an hr if you prostitute yourself for 500 hr

Oops sorry, wrong description, during prostitution YOU are paid to be screwed, in this instance YOU pay to be screwed.

I can't even think of a description for this, even slavery is not sufficient, as a slave you are forced to work for free. Here YOU pay to work.

Yes, here YOU pay to work ! ! ! F. F. S.

How sad is the level this "profession" has been allowed to descend to.

Accountant driven airlines I can't stomach, but regretably can probably understand, but regulators/unions ? ? ?
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Old 16th May 2011, 01:38
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Aviation authorities worlwide should, and should have long ago, jumped on these "pimp my ride" scheming bar-stewards.
Why would they? They are policing standards and not ethics. A regulator is only interested in ensuring that a crew member has been trained to the required standard and is safe and competent to operate. How they achieve that is not within their mandate. Until there is a firm link between such schemes and safety, then the CAA (or whoever) have little reason to intervene. It is potentially dangerous to put all 'pay to fly' schemes into the 'unsafe' category, since the more reputable training organisations and operators, do indeed set the bar high.

The finger should not be pointed at the CAA, for now at least. It is the unions, representative bodies and those in airlines that adopt such schemes, that are to blame. The time for lobbying was years ago and not now.
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Old 16th May 2011, 07:54
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not only in aviation, in other professions it 's the same problem.

this is a free world, no one can stop you to hire someone for free, or ask someone to pay a fortune to make a job which should be paid. This is called benevolat, or stage.

as long suckers pay to fly like in an aeroclub, why should they pay you? think about it !

Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 16th May 2011 at 09:52.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:31
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The regulatory authorites need to police every aspect of aviation operations. Risk is increased with p2f schemes being offered and there should be action taken to minimise this at every level. The CAA has already had a warning http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...JZ%2012-08.pdf.
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Old 20th May 2011, 22:39
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The RAeS article makes relevant points but it seems much of the research was done through BALPA, the same outfit that advertises SSTR schemes in it's journal and is unwilling to confront the "pilot mills"/ "approved schools" that promote such schemes (possibly because many of it's members work for the schools part time as TREs/TRIs......).

P2F will end when it becomes too expensive for wage slaves to get loans or (sadly) when accidents happen.
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Old 21st May 2011, 19:17
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P2F loans are already getting hard to come by as a number of young pilots have gone so deeply in debt that personal bankrupcy has been the only way out. So the banks are now seeing P2F loans as bad business unless secured by other assets.
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Old 24th May 2011, 09:41
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And Mummy and Daddy's house may not be great collateral anytime soon!
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Old 24th May 2011, 14:05
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Why, I wonder, in every accident report they estate the flight experience of the pilots?

Might it be because there is a link between experience and safety?

If so, is it safe when airlines maintain low experienced pilots permanently seating as copilots?
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Old 24th May 2011, 17:37
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Statistics show the older pilots have more accidents than the younger ones, and you can assume the younger ones have less experience. Maybe the question of how much training is taking place is more appropriate, are these guys getting value for money from the training process or being cut loose too soon?
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Old 24th May 2011, 17:47
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Statistics show the older pilots have more accidents than the younger ones,
Really ?

Can you provide those statistics they would be interesting to examine.

how those statistics predicated, does it allow for factoring in accordance with command structure? in what environment are those statics based corporate, commercial, GA? in what geographic region are the statistics based ?

would very much like to examine them.
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Old 24th May 2011, 19:17
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Of course the pilots that have been flying longer statistically have had more " opportunities" for error. Its a bit like asking if the Ford Focus is less safe than the Clio as it has had more wacks, well, yes if there are more of them its stands to reason! The problem with Pilot statistics is that often there can be no relationship between age and experience as people join late in life or as cadets. In theory, if a guy passes a line check he should be capable, regardless of age or experience, does the mentoring stop just because they PTF...This is also of interest..well to me anyway!

Pilot Experience vs Youth .THE REALITY
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Old 25th May 2011, 22:38
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Kirks Gusset - You are twisting stats it's outrageous!

Dear Mr. Gusset,

That claim is outrageous! There is no way that you can justify your statement; are you seriously trying to say that a young inexperienced cadet, who is paying for his seat time, with all the experience behind him of a Baker is less prone to accidents than the experienced operator with years of service under his belt? Waterson next? We should be bigging up this occupation & making sure that only the relevant experience is at the Sharpe end of the aircraft. Bring back the days of the 'Raj' I say, where everyone new his place & their experience counted for the job that they did & that amounted to safety conscious travel. I don't want my family flying with a Big Nell at the front who has to be wet nursed &, God forbid in the case of an incident, would be found to be seriously wanting.

We need our regulators to control this P2F outrage so that the fare paying public & we, as professional aviators, stop taking it up the starfish!
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Old 26th May 2011, 11:35
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Well, we could start bullying them so they don't want to come to work...

Just a thought since the mighty plan of "stop it now" didn't work
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Old 26th May 2011, 23:30
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Devil Paint schemes?

Remember Virgin's "4 engines are better than fewer across the Atlantic" type slogans (yes I know they now have A330), or EZY's early 737s with phone number on the sides or RYR's goodbye to Airline XX......

Maybe an airline with some clout could market a "we say no to P2F" or "we pay for our Pilot's Line training so you won't have to" slogan on the sides of their shiny jets to get some media attention!

With regard to the experience v youth debate - we all had to start somewhere, but self selection via P2F is far worse than a low houred youngster selected on merit (eg: Armed Forces pilots). I'd be happier sending my family on a flight with a 22 yr old 500h ex RAF Tucano graduate as FO than the new (potentially no solo flying) MPL scheme cadet......
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Old 28th May 2011, 08:57
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G'day all, i would like to share some of my views about this P2F issue.

I'm a student pilot currently. And i'm against this scheme that airlines do to screw the pilots around. It's really disgusting and degrading. To pay a fortune in flight training and still have to fork out another fortune to get a job? now that is really ridiculous. Honestly i do not know of any other industry that makes you pay to get a job.

From what i know and see, is that there is a gap between the period of time where newly minted CPL pilots with endorsements graduate from flight school and the point where they can meet the initial requirements of most flying jobs i see in advertisements.

At most, they will finish their training with 250-300hrs flight time, but most jobs (just from the ads i look through) have requirements of at least 500-1000hrs flight time. Even for smaller companies they have a high requirement. Not many companies will hire a low timer fresh out of flight school.

Why aren't the regulating authorities working to stop this? Sooner or later this totally undermine the pilots rights in the future. I'm guessing if this happened in any other industry, that industry would be up in arms and the governments would take a stand on it. Why isn't this happening to the aviation industry.
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Old 28th May 2011, 12:45
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I think the reason that it's not happening in this industry dl_88 is there are simply too many younger guys who still see this job as something that it once used to be, i.e., well paid, glamorous, great time off, jet set lifestyle etc., etc.

No surveyor, accountant or estate agent, for example, would be prepared to fork out the amounts of money towards his/her career that pilots do & yet in all three of the mentioned jobs you can earn far more than a pilot & be at home with the family, not staying in the poorest rooms that the hotels would never give to a 'paying' guest, working on the back of the clock whilst being away from your loved ones on ever tighter schedules

The authorities don't regulate against it because they can't. If a person has the requisite license, hours & ratings to sit in the right seat then what can they do?
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:49
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I grew up having that mindset, but though it has changed, I still love flying. So i'm doing for my passion. I do know, that to survive in this industry, there must be a passion and if someone's in for the money, boy are they gonna get a rude awakening.

Instead of clamping down on the pilots themselves, why not on the management of airlines who condone the use of P2F Schemes? Does anyone know when did it start out from?
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Old 31st May 2011, 08:55
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dl_88, I'm delighted that you, "still love flying," I really am. I see from your profile that you are 23 years old & I remember the time (not that long ago )when I too, loved flying. However, now that the gloss has gone from this industry; that Parc are paying 777 f/os less than a London bus driver at TNT, that Ryanair are flying round with only the front left seat not having been paid for by someone etc., etc., you will find that as life progresses you'll want financial reward rather than a slap in the face just because you "love" flying. You won't find it anymore. What, "Passion," could anyone possibly have for constantly working through the night, suffering jet lag, minimum rest at all destinations, being away from your family, being held totally accountable when the sh1t hits the fan with no company back-up; working with flight attendants who have an attitude the size of Mexico city & have zero respect for you because they are delighted that the, "Rich captain," has taken a hit in his wallet? We don't do this for the sake a vocational calling: leave that to the doctors & nurses who deserve every cent they receive.

And, so long as pilots keep accepting these garbage conditions the worse it will get.

As far as when the P2F thing started; I remember BMI, British Midland as it was then, offering type rating courses on the 737 for anyone willing to pay for it around 1990. Of course the big explosion in P2F was with Ryanair, probably 2001-2002.
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Old 5th Jun 2011, 16:29
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Xerox 25, you smoking crack, Buddy?
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