Pilot shortage? Go for DEPs and DECs!
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HidekiTojo, look are you after a jet job or not if 300 pilots just left as you say they must be hiring. Where did they go and what percentage of F/Os & Capts was it? Face it, people leave when the pay or lifestyle is crap and they are not hamstrung by seniority, are you where you are because of the pay or because of seniority? Seniority looks great at the start of a career as it dangles command in your face and once you are there it then dangles F/O or S/O which is no incentive to leave is it.
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Insurance is just another industry with all the same considerations, i.e. bottom line, shareholders, Names, (if Lloyds) etc. etc.
Underwriters will look at many things when assessing a rate, such as the actuarial record of the airframe generally, record of the regions in which it is employed as well as the record of the airline specifically.
Contrary to popular belief insurance underwriters rarely place a minimum hours limitation, (called a warranty), on pilots of an established airline with a reasonable record, they leave that to airline management and the regulating authority.
If an airline says they never promote a captain with less than 5000 hours and 1000 on type the underwriter will probably rub his hands together and say "good oh" but I seriously doubt he will give any reduction in premium for it. Insurance is a risk business and underwriters are prepared to take calculated risks.
The occasions when I have seen a pilot warranty imposed on a policy is when a small company acquires a new and expensive airframe that it has not operated previously, another time was when a small company had an accident and it transpired the owners son, with less than 500 hours total, was in the LHS of a large twin turbo prop.
Don't plan on too much help from the insurance industry, they are not going to start rocking anyones boat if the premium income keeps coming in and claims are low, it is just a business, moral obligations remain with managements and authorities.
Underwriters will look at many things when assessing a rate, such as the actuarial record of the airframe generally, record of the regions in which it is employed as well as the record of the airline specifically.
Contrary to popular belief insurance underwriters rarely place a minimum hours limitation, (called a warranty), on pilots of an established airline with a reasonable record, they leave that to airline management and the regulating authority.
If an airline says they never promote a captain with less than 5000 hours and 1000 on type the underwriter will probably rub his hands together and say "good oh" but I seriously doubt he will give any reduction in premium for it. Insurance is a risk business and underwriters are prepared to take calculated risks.
The occasions when I have seen a pilot warranty imposed on a policy is when a small company acquires a new and expensive airframe that it has not operated previously, another time was when a small company had an accident and it transpired the owners son, with less than 500 hours total, was in the LHS of a large twin turbo prop.
Don't plan on too much help from the insurance industry, they are not going to start rocking anyones boat if the premium income keeps coming in and claims are low, it is just a business, moral obligations remain with managements and authorities.
Last edited by parabellum; 2nd May 2011 at 06:49.
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overlooked
But one thing is overlooked. Notwithstanding the advantages of the seniority system for those who are in it, if you consider yourself the best airline, you want the most experienced pilots and when those pilots want to join, you cant put them behind a newby and let him/her wait for 10-20 years to have a command, not even talking about the risk of inverted leadership.(who is really in command if you put an 10000 hrs ex skipper as FO next to a recently upgraded FO with no command experience and less than half his time-It just does not work)
I know of several cases where a experienced skipper moved to a legacy carrier
one was a ex-sabena captain(B737/A310) who joined the bottom of the seniority list age 45, knowing that command might not come before retirement
Another a ex charter airline B767 Captain who joined KLM as a CoCo(second officer), spending the next 5 years sitting on the jumpseat after which he finally was allowed again to land from the right hand seat.
That was a choice, but most experienced skippers would be hard to convince to accept lower pay and degradation of position
What a waste of talent and experience. You do not make a experienced CEO an assistant to another. Or a experienced surgeon an assistant in another hospital.
If you claim that just because it is there it should not be changed, you have not noticed the rest of the world around you has been changed in the meantime and this will change as well, first the side influx (experienced guys put on the list amongst similar pilots) and then the whole seniority system.
If you as an 10-20 year FO have bet on the seniority system(and most of those are the guys in favour of it) and it all falls apart you should have started to think perhaps a bit earlier why you have chosen not to compete for the left seat by excelling above the rest but instead have chosen to wait until they finally should give it to you.....
I know of several cases where a experienced skipper moved to a legacy carrier
one was a ex-sabena captain(B737/A310) who joined the bottom of the seniority list age 45, knowing that command might not come before retirement
Another a ex charter airline B767 Captain who joined KLM as a CoCo(second officer), spending the next 5 years sitting on the jumpseat after which he finally was allowed again to land from the right hand seat.
That was a choice, but most experienced skippers would be hard to convince to accept lower pay and degradation of position
What a waste of talent and experience. You do not make a experienced CEO an assistant to another. Or a experienced surgeon an assistant in another hospital.
If you claim that just because it is there it should not be changed, you have not noticed the rest of the world around you has been changed in the meantime and this will change as well, first the side influx (experienced guys put on the list amongst similar pilots) and then the whole seniority system.
If you as an 10-20 year FO have bet on the seniority system(and most of those are the guys in favour of it) and it all falls apart you should have started to think perhaps a bit earlier why you have chosen not to compete for the left seat by excelling above the rest but instead have chosen to wait until they finally should give it to you.....
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CUPOFTEA, I like your reasoning but, I think your argument fails when you start comparing the career structure of medicine with that of aviation. Aviation is almost unique in the way that the career structure is limited by the size of the workforce, the limited number of respectable employers and the (almost) sole opportunity for promotion from r to L seat. Medicine has a much wider choice for people to move up or sideways due to the huge numbers of doctors employed in a given country compared to employed pilots. It is a much free-er market than we have in aviation.
Respectable airlines tend to steer clear of DEC's unless the need is dire. The reason is simple. There will almost always be an ample supply of tried tested and graded Fo's waiting for upgrade. Sure in boomtimes there can be a shortage of people of the correct calibre, but that has usually gone hand in hand with a rapid growth of the business and quickly dis-appears when growth flattens out. When did you last see BA looking for DEC's? Almost never.
Then look at the available DEC's, they are either the pilots who find themselves in the unlucky position of redundancy and there are those who might struggle to pass a decent interview. Those pilots that thrive on the excitement of contract work, won't be looking for a DEC job normally. So, for the employer, there is still no advantage in the DEC who has trained to different SOP's, not got an in-house training record and may have an 'unfortunate history'. Added to that is the bad feeling that DEC's can create within the company, not great for CRM.
Seniority has been threatened before and is still here, admittedly with modifications, and works well for the unique airline model. All the airlines that I observe without seniority have, in part, unstable workforces, low morale, low pay, poor conditions, high staff turnover, little loyalty and I don't envy anyone working for one.
We have had several years of new pilots and unscrupulous employers lowering the t&c's for everyone else worldwide, probably time to stop it now.
Respectable airlines tend to steer clear of DEC's unless the need is dire. The reason is simple. There will almost always be an ample supply of tried tested and graded Fo's waiting for upgrade. Sure in boomtimes there can be a shortage of people of the correct calibre, but that has usually gone hand in hand with a rapid growth of the business and quickly dis-appears when growth flattens out. When did you last see BA looking for DEC's? Almost never.
Then look at the available DEC's, they are either the pilots who find themselves in the unlucky position of redundancy and there are those who might struggle to pass a decent interview. Those pilots that thrive on the excitement of contract work, won't be looking for a DEC job normally. So, for the employer, there is still no advantage in the DEC who has trained to different SOP's, not got an in-house training record and may have an 'unfortunate history'. Added to that is the bad feeling that DEC's can create within the company, not great for CRM.
Seniority has been threatened before and is still here, admittedly with modifications, and works well for the unique airline model. All the airlines that I observe without seniority have, in part, unstable workforces, low morale, low pay, poor conditions, high staff turnover, little loyalty and I don't envy anyone working for one.
We have had several years of new pilots and unscrupulous employers lowering the t&c's for everyone else worldwide, probably time to stop it now.
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cupoftea - You are missing three points.
First, no matter how many hours a person has, or whatever their seniority number is, if they are not up to standard and can't pass a command course then they will be overtaken by people who are junior to them, in order of seniority, which is fair.
Meritocracy in aviation is a very subjective thing, one mans ace is another mans idiot. If one person is genuinely way ahead of their contemporaries they will usually seek work that utilises all their expertise which may involve test flying, training, VVIP positions etc.
Having become a captain, regardless of age, one is required to maintain the necessary standard, (equal to the senior physician), and will be checked frequently to ensure this, one is not required to be an ace as the standard is expected to cover all eventualities, (unlike the junior physician).
First, no matter how many hours a person has, or whatever their seniority number is, if they are not up to standard and can't pass a command course then they will be overtaken by people who are junior to them, in order of seniority, which is fair.
Meritocracy in aviation is a very subjective thing, one mans ace is another mans idiot. If one person is genuinely way ahead of their contemporaries they will usually seek work that utilises all their expertise which may involve test flying, training, VVIP positions etc.
Having become a captain, regardless of age, one is required to maintain the necessary standard, (equal to the senior physician), and will be checked frequently to ensure this, one is not required to be an ace as the standard is expected to cover all eventualities, (unlike the junior physician).
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aut vincere aut mori
Parabellum, with all respect,neither of the 3 points I apparently missed, are against the implementation of ending the seniority system as we still know it today. with due consideration to the comfort the system gives for those within, it is a relic of the past and is destined to change. Besides benefiting the members of the gents club, is does not help the airlines you work for to compete with other airlines who have accepted a different (read modern) business model.
Once the unions are convinced that in a scrupulous market as we are in today, the garantee of work prevails over 'rights', the system will stop to exist.
The Sabena pilots in 2002 were against the erosion of their' rights' when the company tried to restructure the company after 9-11 and decided to strike instead of giving up most of their 'rights'. They won. That is they kept their rights until the day the company when bankrupt 2 weeks later and most lost their job.
If you had told me 10 years ago that in the future the cockpit door will be closed throughout the flight and you as crew would need to take your shoes off at the security check, I would not have believed you either.aut vincere aut mori you might say in defence of your rights, but look at the Sabena example above, it was and is not worth it.
Once the unions are convinced that in a scrupulous market as we are in today, the garantee of work prevails over 'rights', the system will stop to exist.
The Sabena pilots in 2002 were against the erosion of their' rights' when the company tried to restructure the company after 9-11 and decided to strike instead of giving up most of their 'rights'. They won. That is they kept their rights until the day the company when bankrupt 2 weeks later and most lost their job.
If you had told me 10 years ago that in the future the cockpit door will be closed throughout the flight and you as crew would need to take your shoes off at the security check, I would not have believed you either.aut vincere aut mori you might say in defence of your rights, but look at the Sabena example above, it was and is not worth it.
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Sorry, not correct, SABENA was a basket case long before the pilots took action, had they not, it would have still gone to the wall. Had some of their guys working with me after it went bust, they all got hired by good airlines.
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Beg to differ cupoftea...the seniority system has been around a lot longer than we have...because it works. Every generation has their Lorenzo and every generation tries to reinvent the wheel. What you're putting forth as the 'modern' business model is just an indication of a cancerous growth in the system.
