Ryanair Brookfield False Self Employment?
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Ryanair Brookfield False Self Employment?
The issue of Ryanair contract pilots raised in houses of parliament as 'false self employment' in order to avoid national insurance and holiday pay. Looks like a pilot has approached his MP.
Those of you interested click the link below to radio 4 iplayer. Move to 20mins 40sec to listen to the recording of MP raising the issue in Westminster. Despite the title of the link it will work taking you directly to the Today programme recorded Sat 5th March 2011. The show is available until 0900 UTC 12th March.
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
Any comments?
Consequences for Brookfield pilot's or Ryanair?
Edited to provide further details on above link:
Should you experience difficulty listening to this go to BBC iplayer, radio shows, 5th March, Today programme, 0700am show, 20mins, 40 secs into recording.
Those of you interested click the link below to radio 4 iplayer. Move to 20mins 40sec to listen to the recording of MP raising the issue in Westminster. Despite the title of the link it will work taking you directly to the Today programme recorded Sat 5th March 2011. The show is available until 0900 UTC 12th March.
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
Any comments?
Consequences for Brookfield pilot's or Ryanair?
Edited to provide further details on above link:
Should you experience difficulty listening to this go to BBC iplayer, radio shows, 5th March, Today programme, 0700am show, 20mins, 40 secs into recording.
Sorry, I couldn't get your link to work. But try this:-
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - Today in Parliament, 04/03/2011
at 5m05s.
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - Today in Parliament, 04/03/2011
at 5m05s.
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very interesting Issue!
according to the ie. spanish Social security, a pilot can not work as a self employed unless he is the owner of the acft.
I belive in other countries this rule also apply.
A lot of, let's say, not legal contracts around Europe, folks!!
What is the EU doing about this?
What are the Unions doing about this?
Usually, pilots who work for brokers as self employed to fly another's acft do not belong to any Union and if they do.... nothing happens.
Someone should do something to STOP this !!!
Let's get our rights back folks!!!
according to the ie. spanish Social security, a pilot can not work as a self employed unless he is the owner of the acft.
I belive in other countries this rule also apply.
A lot of, let's say, not legal contracts around Europe, folks!!
What is the EU doing about this?
What are the Unions doing about this?
Usually, pilots who work for brokers as self employed to fly another's acft do not belong to any Union and if they do.... nothing happens.
Someone should do something to STOP this !!!
Let's get our rights back folks!!!
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Ryanair False Self Employment
Guys, it is on 5th March NOT the 4th. See BBCiplayer, radio shows, sat 5th March 2011, Today programme 0700, 20mins 40secs into show.
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
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Ryanair Brookfield False Self Employment
Ok guys sorry, the link above were for mobile iplayer, this one will work for normal pc:
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
I will amend links above to correct them.
BBC iPlayer - Today: 05/03/2011
I will amend links above to correct them.
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So what's the problem? If the Pilot believes he is not self employed, all he/she has to do is fill in a tax return and pay the tax and NI. This is a bit of a nonsense, I don't know anyone, in any profession that is rushing to the doors of the Revenue to pay tax! The self-employed status conditions have been around for years, pick and choose hours of work, responsible for profit and loss etc, these guys know this when they sign up through the agency... and I think you will find, the Agency Contract states the " contractor" is responsible for their tax status/declarations.. sounds like sour grapes. If the person does not want to fly 900 hrs, expects to have months off, phone in with a broken finger nail etc.. don't work for a lo-co, infact, get out of aviation. Even CX have a very strict sickness, holiday, tax policy, it's not just Brookfield and RYR. There are many, many CX pilots UK based, paying no tax as their duties start out of UK. We have to decide to get off the fence and protect the industry or protect the moaners..simple...
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This legislation has been around since 2000. Do a search on IR35. It hit the IT contractors big time back then and it sounds like Customs and Excise have set their sites on Ryanair now. Brookfield pilots are disguised employees for Ryanair.
I can tell you from bitter experience that the Customs and Excise set the rules, change the rules on a whim, and then apply them back dated however they please. They don't forget about you, and are happy to hit you with a claim for, what they consider, 7 years unpaid tax.
I can tell you from bitter experience that the Customs and Excise set the rules, change the rules on a whim, and then apply them back dated however they please. They don't forget about you, and are happy to hit you with a claim for, what they consider, 7 years unpaid tax.
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Evidence of what! That they are not paying tax! get real, these guys know the score and if they are judged to be employees and have to pay tax at source, are they going to leave Ryanair.. of course not.. As for these contracts not being legal.. complete rubbish.. they are legal, the obligation is on the contractor to sort out their own affairs.
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Midnight Cruiser, I am not " woefully uniformed" The regulations tightened up and basically, if you are for instance UK based, you are subject ""Legally"" to UK tax, even if you are self employed in the real sense, i. e not a scam, you will pay probably tax. The Agency engages the Pilot as a self -employed contractor, therefore, on paper, the " contractor" is liable for their own declarations. The arguement on this thread is as the " Contractor" does not meet the criteria for being self employed, either UK or wherever, hence they are an " Employee" and should have the tax burdens AND RIGHTS of an employee.
My simple rationale is that no-one likes paying tax, and are these people really going to go running to the revenue, possibly muddy the waters with their company, who then potentially has an Employers NI and other liabilitities? and, as pointed out Irish tax liability.. likely not, they want A) a Job, B) as much money as they can get.
I also appreciate that many of the guys on these schemes have a huge training debt burden and any improvement in their finances helps reduce that burden, the last thing they need is a kick in the guts for 30% plus tax. This principle prevails regardless of the airline or the Agency.
My simple rationale is that no-one likes paying tax, and are these people really going to go running to the revenue, possibly muddy the waters with their company, who then potentially has an Employers NI and other liabilitities? and, as pointed out Irish tax liability.. likely not, they want A) a Job, B) as much money as they can get.
I also appreciate that many of the guys on these schemes have a huge training debt burden and any improvement in their finances helps reduce that burden, the last thing they need is a kick in the guts for 30% plus tax. This principle prevails regardless of the airline or the Agency.
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Where are you resident.. You pays your tax!
Kirk
I think you've missed a couple of things. Not all contractors sole objective is to reduce all tax liability. Should you try this for long enough it'll come back to bite you. In this circumstance you have an individual who requires an income and a willing client. The contractor provides a service and charges accordingly. There is never a problem normally. However the rules within the Brookfield contracts and the way they are implemented are incompatible with IR35. Take the time to look at IR35 and some past judgements by the courts.
You mention that if you are UK based then that's where you pay tax. Well FR claim that you work in Ireland as you're aboard and Irish registered AC. So all the uk based guys working through Irish companies pay tax where?... Yes Ireland. However all the uk based Ryanair contract folk pay tax where? Yes UK!! Bingo my friend.... Same base, same rank, same roster, only a slight change in legal status or not... It's going to be fun!!! Brookfield guys, do yourselves a favour and make sure you are paying a reasonable amount of tax and have your ducks in a row. IF needs be, get IR to look at your status and ask where you stand. I know one chap who's had IR contact him about this Ireland deal.
I think you've missed a couple of things. Not all contractors sole objective is to reduce all tax liability. Should you try this for long enough it'll come back to bite you. In this circumstance you have an individual who requires an income and a willing client. The contractor provides a service and charges accordingly. There is never a problem normally. However the rules within the Brookfield contracts and the way they are implemented are incompatible with IR35. Take the time to look at IR35 and some past judgements by the courts.
You mention that if you are UK based then that's where you pay tax. Well FR claim that you work in Ireland as you're aboard and Irish registered AC. So all the uk based guys working through Irish companies pay tax where?... Yes Ireland. However all the uk based Ryanair contract folk pay tax where? Yes UK!! Bingo my friend.... Same base, same rank, same roster, only a slight change in legal status or not... It's going to be fun!!! Brookfield guys, do yourselves a favour and make sure you are paying a reasonable amount of tax and have your ducks in a row. IF needs be, get IR to look at your status and ask where you stand. I know one chap who's had IR contact him about this Ireland deal.
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Some fair points, I agree with a " reserve fund" incase you need to pay the taxes, however, this whole Irish tax situation is a mess, look at the Cityjet guys that thought they were having the taxes stopped, then get a big bill form UK Revenue. One reasonable question? Has any of these " Contractors" spoken to Brookfield and got a resolution?
What about the AEU guys working through PAS? or the TUI guys working through Contractair? Same boats, just different sails!
What about the AEU guys working through PAS? or the TUI guys working through Contractair? Same boats, just different sails!
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Full time employment
I think Kirk that you will be surprised at how many people would give up the BRK contract to be on a perm FR contract.
There are many reasons, but most are to do with the fact that they are no longer having to worry about;
getting paid that month because they have done no hours
contract being terminated for no reason
protection from redundancy
pension
sick pay
holiday pay
not having to do a tax return
not having to worry about HMRC chasing you for £s
not having to deal with the Irish accountancy racket
Life is a lot easier, and people say you earn less on a perm contract. This is only true if you are not paying your tax properly.
There are many reasons, but most are to do with the fact that they are no longer having to worry about;
getting paid that month because they have done no hours
contract being terminated for no reason
protection from redundancy
pension
sick pay
holiday pay
not having to do a tax return
not having to worry about HMRC chasing you for £s
not having to deal with the Irish accountancy racket
Life is a lot easier, and people say you earn less on a perm contract. This is only true if you are not paying your tax properly.