The value of a First Officer versus the value of a Captain
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Granted
However outside the NN context. I talk generally with regard to day by day operation. The guy who won't let you engage VNAV because he doesn't really understand it, the guy who puts his hand on the flap lever dispelling a look of contempt in your direction when you really don't need it at that stage, the guy who asks you how much fuel you would like to take on your sector yet completely ignores you reasoning and orders what he was really going to take all along.....without explanation....the list is endless :
He is usually the guy who plants it on the last leg after commenting on your operation all day long; yet he blames it on tiredness, or that his seat pitch was all out of whack, or that he got some inexplicable sink in the last 50 feet!
However outside the NN context. I talk generally with regard to day by day operation. The guy who won't let you engage VNAV because he doesn't really understand it, the guy who puts his hand on the flap lever dispelling a look of contempt in your direction when you really don't need it at that stage, the guy who asks you how much fuel you would like to take on your sector yet completely ignores you reasoning and orders what he was really going to take all along.....without explanation....the list is endless :
He is usually the guy who plants it on the last leg after commenting on your operation all day long; yet he blames it on tiredness, or that his seat pitch was all out of whack, or that he got some inexplicable sink in the last 50 feet!
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Callsign Kilo,
This is just an observation based on many years. A lot of F/O's who openly voice your opinions go on to be very worst Captains. Most F/O's can accept they are not Captain but some get VERY frustrated. A lot of the frustrated F/O's then go on to become the exact Captains they hated. The desire to make all the calls turns them into the nightmare they so disliked.
You must be a Boeing pilot (lucky). Have you ever asked your Captain why he doesn't like VNAV departures or why he wants a certain fuel figure?
This is just an observation based on many years. A lot of F/O's who openly voice your opinions go on to be very worst Captains. Most F/O's can accept they are not Captain but some get VERY frustrated. A lot of the frustrated F/O's then go on to become the exact Captains they hated. The desire to make all the calls turns them into the nightmare they so disliked.
You must be a Boeing pilot (lucky). Have you ever asked your Captain why he doesn't like VNAV departures or why he wants a certain fuel figure?
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This is just an observation based on many years. A lot of F/O's who openly voice your opinions go on to be very worst Captains. Most F/O's can accept they are not Captain but some get VERY frustrated. A lot of the frustrated F/O's then go on to become the exact Captains they hated. The desire to make all the calls turns them into the nightmare they so disliked.
If First Officers desire a democracy, they had better learn to look for it elsewhere...other than the airliner flight deck.
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Situation
I have a total time of over 12000 hours and most LH people I fly with have less experience and are of a younger age. They all know that I can be a very valuable source if they treat me with respect but many of them treat me like a piece of sh!t.
I have no prospect of becoming a captain again as I have been for some time before making the wrong move because of seniority, no expansion and a management that is not worth any title.
Not only am I trapped because of age limits hitting plans more and more but the ever so often requirement of 500 hours PIC o n t y p e is what discriminates me and destroys all hopes for a better future. Having over 3000 hours in command on medium jet is not helpful at all.
Nobody has told me about this before. This is defying humanity.
But who cares.
I have no prospect of becoming a captain again as I have been for some time before making the wrong move because of seniority, no expansion and a management that is not worth any title.
Not only am I trapped because of age limits hitting plans more and more but the ever so often requirement of 500 hours PIC o n t y p e is what discriminates me and destroys all hopes for a better future. Having over 3000 hours in command on medium jet is not helpful at all.
Nobody has told me about this before. This is defying humanity.
But who cares.
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I agree, I've seen a certain degree of emulation between those once sitting on the right who also once complained insesently about flying with particular Captains. They are now in the hotseat and display similar traits.....but not everyone. There is no real frustration expressed with regard to not being or becoming a Captain within my lot. Generally the path to command occurs quickly or alternatively you choose not to take it. Believe me, the other frustrations that develop once sitting in the left seat are more prevalent currently!
Have I asked Captains who effectively want to make every last decision within the flightdeck why they disagree with my particular method. Generally no IF...
1) I know my method is the method expressed within our SOPs and OPs requirements and that he prefers an alternative due to lack of understanding, ease of use or just pure arrogance.
2) When I understand that questioning their particular reasoning or method
will only create tension for the remainder of the day.
3) When their decision will neither kill me or get me in trouble. It may frustrate me, however I will act professionally.
If he is being an unbearable prick throughout the entire day I might take it up once the parking brake is set and the engines are shut down on the last sector of the day. The flightdeck is no place for potential feuding. I have only ever
done this once and we resolved it amicably. If I were to feel threatened to the point that the Captains actions were affecting my ability, I would hand them
control. Not because I don't feel like playing any longer; because my ability has been hampered. I've never had to do this thankfully; but I would do it because I'm not going to **** about with a 60tonne aircraft in a fit of rage.
The best Captains are the ones who suggest another method or another approach tactfully. They give reasoning and by doing so have always ensured that I for one are receptive. These very Captains have helped mould many FOs. They also agree that point no.3 is particulary relevant to anyones learning curve. The line is drawn beyond that.
Just my two cents
Have I asked Captains who effectively want to make every last decision within the flightdeck why they disagree with my particular method. Generally no IF...
1) I know my method is the method expressed within our SOPs and OPs requirements and that he prefers an alternative due to lack of understanding, ease of use or just pure arrogance.
2) When I understand that questioning their particular reasoning or method
will only create tension for the remainder of the day.
3) When their decision will neither kill me or get me in trouble. It may frustrate me, however I will act professionally.
If he is being an unbearable prick throughout the entire day I might take it up once the parking brake is set and the engines are shut down on the last sector of the day. The flightdeck is no place for potential feuding. I have only ever
done this once and we resolved it amicably. If I were to feel threatened to the point that the Captains actions were affecting my ability, I would hand them
control. Not because I don't feel like playing any longer; because my ability has been hampered. I've never had to do this thankfully; but I would do it because I'm not going to **** about with a 60tonne aircraft in a fit of rage.
The best Captains are the ones who suggest another method or another approach tactfully. They give reasoning and by doing so have always ensured that I for one are receptive. These very Captains have helped mould many FOs. They also agree that point no.3 is particulary relevant to anyones learning curve. The line is drawn beyond that.
Just my two cents
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RyanAir's idea of a First Officer:
A decided advantage.
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411A...taxiing an aircraft is hardly the most challenging part of a day out, why not let him/her?
Vexed...probably the most sensible post I have seen on this forum for a long long time!!
Vexed...probably the most sensible post I have seen on this forum for a long long time!!
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There seem to be some very bitter, frustrated FOs on this thread, but thankfully many more calm and measured ones.
A decent Captain will always value the opinions of his/her FO, but may not always agree with them. As said before, it isn't a democracy and the steepness of the gradient has to vary with the circumstances. What the FO may perceive as arrogance could be cultural barriers in this multi-national industry, or could be a Captain become a little frustrated at a pushy, cocky FO, just as much as it may be an attitude problem in the Captain. There are just as many bolshy FOs as Captains, may be more due to them failing command selection/training.
A good captain will try to allow the FOs as much latitude as possible to expand their experience, knowledge and capability as circumstances allow, passing on tips and techniques without harassing or hounding the FO, in a constructive manner. At the same time, they need to get the primary job of flying the aircraft safely and economically. Sometimes, the conditions of the day don't lend themselves to a touchy-feely cockpit. Sometimes the Captain may be tired, a little under the weather or having issues at home which don't put them in the mood for chattiness. It's not a club or school on the line, so don't always expect that environment.
I stick to a simple rule - don't put the aircraft in a position that either pilot is not happy with. If the FO is uncomfortable with something, it's quite possible that they have seen some problem I have missed, so we discuss it. If I am confident that the matter is not a problem, the discussion should allay the FO's concerns. It would be very rare that a Captain would just overrule an FO without discussion (where time permits) or good reason.
A decent Captain will always value the opinions of his/her FO, but may not always agree with them. As said before, it isn't a democracy and the steepness of the gradient has to vary with the circumstances. What the FO may perceive as arrogance could be cultural barriers in this multi-national industry, or could be a Captain become a little frustrated at a pushy, cocky FO, just as much as it may be an attitude problem in the Captain. There are just as many bolshy FOs as Captains, may be more due to them failing command selection/training.
A good captain will try to allow the FOs as much latitude as possible to expand their experience, knowledge and capability as circumstances allow, passing on tips and techniques without harassing or hounding the FO, in a constructive manner. At the same time, they need to get the primary job of flying the aircraft safely and economically. Sometimes, the conditions of the day don't lend themselves to a touchy-feely cockpit. Sometimes the Captain may be tired, a little under the weather or having issues at home which don't put them in the mood for chattiness. It's not a club or school on the line, so don't always expect that environment.
I stick to a simple rule - don't put the aircraft in a position that either pilot is not happy with. If the FO is uncomfortable with something, it's quite possible that they have seen some problem I have missed, so we discuss it. If I am confident that the matter is not a problem, the discussion should allay the FO's concerns. It would be very rare that a Captain would just overrule an FO without discussion (where time permits) or good reason.
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The value of an FO (a Nav in my aircraft at the time) is, if you are forced down in the desert, you can eat him.
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i wouldnt get too excited 411A.
if forced down in the desert, i'm pretty sure all bets are off
incidentally, you sound like you've been around a while, i dare say you'd need cooking all night
blah blah. find me someone who will disagree with that...
there is nobody. because its a statement of the obvious
these type of threads are funny - everyone gets on high horses, determined to have a heated debate, but there is nothing for any normal person to take issue with. we all, very occasionally, have to fly with someone in either seat, who's a bit of a w
r for one reason or another, but we deal with it in a grown up way, get through the day safely and get on with life.
if forced down in the desert, i'm pretty sure all bets are off
incidentally, you sound like you've been around a while, i dare say you'd need cooking all night
I understand your point but in fairness the flight deck is not a democracy. A final decision has to be made and that has to come from the captain
there is nobody. because its a statement of the obvious
these type of threads are funny - everyone gets on high horses, determined to have a heated debate, but there is nothing for any normal person to take issue with. we all, very occasionally, have to fly with someone in either seat, who's a bit of a w
r for one reason or another, but we deal with it in a grown up way, get through the day safely and get on with life.
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Have flown both LHS and RHS, but more times I found problems with the fella in the LHS as they couldnt cope with an experienced guy in the RHS. I always tried my best to be a good F/O as I knew from my time as the skipper how difficult it could be. The main problem children were the ones who had been in the company for 5 billion years and had never done anything else within avaition, talk about narrow minded!!!!!
I have also been a captain for many years and the toughest FOs were not the ones who had failed but the ones who had 5 mins experience and knew every answer in the book and had an answer for everything, bit like the phrase with a parallel - knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing- just a read across ya know.
Dont fly any more but might be tempted back for that perfect job- i wont hold my breath, mind you I would be more than happy to take 73 as per MOL (solo) just so long as he pays me accordingly - it would cost a lot more than the FOs wages
I have also been a captain for many years and the toughest FOs were not the ones who had failed but the ones who had 5 mins experience and knew every answer in the book and had an answer for everything, bit like the phrase with a parallel - knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing- just a read across ya know.
Dont fly any more but might be tempted back for that perfect job- i wont hold my breath, mind you I would be more than happy to take 73 as per MOL (solo) just so long as he pays me accordingly - it would cost a lot more than the FOs wages
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I was a real junior fo once, the most junior in the company.
I knew ****.
I got better though and came the day that I knew more than the new Captains that I flew with. That was annoying but, I kept my trap shut, as best I could, and kept on learning but with a much wareyer (sp?) eye on events.
Later on (much later on) I got my LH job and I'll tell you this one thing as a good ex FO turned Capt.
Listen to your FO. You'll be glad you did.
Here endeth the lesson.
I knew ****.
I got better though and came the day that I knew more than the new Captains that I flew with. That was annoying but, I kept my trap shut, as best I could, and kept on learning but with a much wareyer (sp?) eye on events.
Later on (much later on) I got my LH job and I'll tell you this one thing as a good ex FO turned Capt.
Listen to your FO. You'll be glad you did.
Here endeth the lesson.
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I am in the position of never having flown with a captain with less experience than myself, but as a captain I have flown with many copilots/previous captains with as much/more experience than me and, for example, with test pilot credentials.
As far as I'm concerned, it is all about the Flight Deck atmosphere and CRM, both of which are fostered primarily by the captain.
Learning from my years as an FO and as a Captain, I believe that the crew teamwork concept is the only way forward, where all views and opinions are actively sought and valued in determining the decision made, albeit with the captain, necessarily, as the arbiter.
A TDODAR-type model (Time, Diagnosis, Options, Decisions, Actions, Review) is fundamental where all parties have the opportunity for their concerns and inputs to be heard.
Those who think that "the Captain as God" mentality is right just need to look at examples of certain Asian carriers in the last 2 decades.
As far as I'm concerned, it is all about the Flight Deck atmosphere and CRM, both of which are fostered primarily by the captain.
Learning from my years as an FO and as a Captain, I believe that the crew teamwork concept is the only way forward, where all views and opinions are actively sought and valued in determining the decision made, albeit with the captain, necessarily, as the arbiter.
A TDODAR-type model (Time, Diagnosis, Options, Decisions, Actions, Review) is fundamental where all parties have the opportunity for their concerns and inputs to be heard.
Those who think that "the Captain as God" mentality is right just need to look at examples of certain Asian carriers in the last 2 decades.