Flybe future recruitment???
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But GAF15 that isn't the argument, what he is saying is that he earns as a ryanair yr2 F/o the same as a year 17 captain at Flybe . That is what I am disputing as factually incorrect. Also are you assuming he is doing 650-700hrs per year? I bet there's a serious amount of f/o's at RA not doing that.
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Ah classic case of the RTFQ. Apologies. Most FOs at FR do at the very least 600.
It is what it is. And I agree with you, I would seriously doubt a year two FO at FR being on more than a year 17 Flybe Captain.
Are you with Jersey yourself?
It is what it is. And I agree with you, I would seriously doubt a year two FO at FR being on more than a year 17 Flybe Captain.
Are you with Jersey yourself?
OApilot, might have known you wouldn't get the math! I'd guess (and I could easily be wrong) that you are oxford grad and thought it wise to blow 75k on a integrated course! I had frozen ATPL owing 10k, and you question my math??? 
The pay is 20euro per hour extra for being out of base, not total......re read what I wrote. Normal is 80 out of base 100/hr. Confin corner, chose not to believe this if you want, I'll be more then happy to send you a copy of my last pay slip, and contract!
Compare like for like so be it - as a 2 yr FO with RYR i make double that of 2 yr flybe FO - fact.
They may not have paid for a type rating, but who'd pay for a Q400 rating, no one! At least I got a good type rating, and hey, least I can apply to BA !
Coffin corner if you knew more about RYR, you'd know that macnamara is a more recent invention, and wasn't even around when I joined.
Whether you like it or not, my basic point is, once you minus all the things you claim (most of what you state is correct) I still make more money then a flybe FO, and it is possible, even if you don't believe more then a captain. Feel free to ask anyone else from the dark side.
I'm actually sticking up for flybe, I believe they should be paid more then what they are for the job they do. If you are arguing that your pay is competitive and not a little lower then the average, then I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Why would anyone leave?
Safe landings
The pay is 20euro per hour extra for being out of base, not total......re read what I wrote. Normal is 80 out of base 100/hr. Confin corner, chose not to believe this if you want, I'll be more then happy to send you a copy of my last pay slip, and contract!
Compare like for like so be it - as a 2 yr FO with RYR i make double that of 2 yr flybe FO - fact.
They may not have paid for a type rating, but who'd pay for a Q400 rating, no one! At least I got a good type rating, and hey, least I can apply to BA !
Coffin corner if you knew more about RYR, you'd know that macnamara is a more recent invention, and wasn't even around when I joined.
Whether you like it or not, my basic point is, once you minus all the things you claim (most of what you state is correct) I still make more money then a flybe FO, and it is possible, even if you don't believe more then a captain. Feel free to ask anyone else from the dark side.
I'm actually sticking up for flybe, I believe they should be paid more then what they are for the job they do. If you are arguing that your pay is competitive and not a little lower then the average, then I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Why would anyone leave?
Safe landings
Let me start by apologising for taking this thread way off topic, my initial comment was perhaps intended to be a bit more tongue and cheek then what has been interpreted. However, while we're on the topic, I can confirm that last year I did 800 hours which is a minimum of 64000euro (as a good percentage of these were at the higher rate, but I didn't factor that in) = £55000 gross ish. Ok, without doing 900 I don't make what a flybe captain would make, but even with all my expenses, you can't argue that it is far more then a flybe 17 yr fo, and double that of a 2 yr flybe FO.
This year I'm on course to do 900 hours which means 72000euro/£61000.
Sorry for you, but my math isn't that far off!
Forgetting the fact, in another 18 months I can possibly expect a command upgrade, where the pay increases to 134 euro/hr and at 900 hours it'll be 120000euro/£103000, arguably more then a 4 year flybe FO (same experience levels of myself at that time) and a 17 yr capt.
I agree with what GAF15, from what I'm told, everything about flybe is great except the money they pay. It's also a fantastic way into the airlines, especially for those who aren't able to pay for a type rating (for sure nobody wants too), but I doubt many pilots, if any, make it 17 years with them purely for financial reasons. If I'm wrong let me know.
VJW
This year I'm on course to do 900 hours which means 72000euro/£61000.
Sorry for you, but my math isn't that far off!
Forgetting the fact, in another 18 months I can possibly expect a command upgrade, where the pay increases to 134 euro/hr and at 900 hours it'll be 120000euro/£103000, arguably more then a 4 year flybe FO (same experience levels of myself at that time) and a 17 yr capt.
I agree with what GAF15, from what I'm told, everything about flybe is great except the money they pay. It's also a fantastic way into the airlines, especially for those who aren't able to pay for a type rating (for sure nobody wants too), but I doubt many pilots, if any, make it 17 years with them purely for financial reasons. If I'm wrong let me know.
VJW
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Keep the clowns away from the flightdeck? Couple of thousand hours in a log book, and a type rating that I paid for.
I believe you are calling anyone that payed for a type rating with FR a clown and that they shoud'nt be on a flightdeck?
You might struggle to get on a flight yourself, let alone a flightdeck.
I say again are you working for Jersey? Reason I ask is that I have never come across the acid and poison that you have levied towards anyone with FR from any of the guys that I know.
I believe you are calling anyone that payed for a type rating with FR a clown and that they shoud'nt be on a flightdeck?
You might struggle to get on a flight yourself, let alone a flightdeck.
I say again are you working for Jersey? Reason I ask is that I have never come across the acid and poison that you have levied towards anyone with FR from any of the guys that I know.
Sorry, you have to show my proof a flybe FO makes 78000 euro a year - doesn't happen!
You're right nobody wants to pay for their rating, but for me, I could justify paying for a B738 rating, please dont make yourself look silly in implying thats a bad rating to have on the licence, and that a Q400 is better!
In any case, I've lost interest and CC you win, I can't be bothered.
You're right nobody wants to pay for their rating, but for me, I could justify paying for a B738 rating, please dont make yourself look silly in implying thats a bad rating to have on the licence, and that a Q400 is better!
In any case, I've lost interest and CC you win, I can't be bothered.
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go around flap 15
Forgive me I don't mean for it to sound like I am tarring all ryanair pilots with the same brush. I didn't say, or mean that at all. This is purely aimed at counteracting the nonsense that is coming out of VJW's keyboard, everything he has said has held no water and he knows it. Again, look at his latest post. His attention to detail is still lacking. He said he earns double that of a BE year 2 F/O. So I am saying he must earn at least EU78,000, but he still doesn't get it.
I have many friends at ryanair, all very astute and intelligent people, as are no doubt, the vast majority.
VJW you are pulling out because you have been found out. Remember it was thee who hijacked this thread with your unfounded nonsense.
Forgive me I don't mean for it to sound like I am tarring all ryanair pilots with the same brush. I didn't say, or mean that at all. This is purely aimed at counteracting the nonsense that is coming out of VJW's keyboard, everything he has said has held no water and he knows it. Again, look at his latest post. His attention to detail is still lacking. He said he earns double that of a BE year 2 F/O. So I am saying he must earn at least EU78,000, but he still doesn't get it.
I have many friends at ryanair, all very astute and intelligent people, as are no doubt, the vast majority.
VJW you are pulling out because you have been found out. Remember it was thee who hijacked this thread with your unfounded nonsense.
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I still can't get my head around the fact that you have to pay to be paid.
Perhaps a comparison is in order.
My last year at Flybe, as a 5 year captain, I averaged about 30 hours a month. 400 hours in the year, give or take.
I grossed over 70,000GBP or E83,000.
From what I can work out at Ryanair as an F/O I would have earnt E36,200, 30,850GBP, using half the hours at the standard rate and half at the higher rate.
For a Ryanair captain it would be E53,600 or 45,678GBP
Okay if I work more than that I'd earn not much more but if I worked less I'd earn not much less either, and I don't have to pay for anything ever.
Perhaps a comparison is in order.
My last year at Flybe, as a 5 year captain, I averaged about 30 hours a month. 400 hours in the year, give or take.
I grossed over 70,000GBP or E83,000.
From what I can work out at Ryanair as an F/O I would have earnt E36,200, 30,850GBP, using half the hours at the standard rate and half at the higher rate.
For a Ryanair captain it would be E53,600 or 45,678GBP
Okay if I work more than that I'd earn not much more but if I worked less I'd earn not much less either, and I don't have to pay for anything ever.
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OApilot, might have known you wouldn't get the math! I'd guess (and I could easily be wrong) that you are oxford grad and thought it wise to blow 75k on a integrated course! I had frozen ATPL owing 10k, and you question my math???
Paid nowhere near that for my fATPL, and owed nothing at the end of it (paid for by me not Bank of Mum and Dad before you ask). Add to that, never paid for any of the three ratings I have, and would leave flying before doing so.
So, guess I win the willy waving contest.
Anyway, you and I are both lucky. The majority of FOs joining FR or BE will have substantial debts so by the time you've factored in all of the additional expenses listed above, that FR and Brookfield impose on their employees, the difference in disposable income is smaller than your superior mathematical mind might think.
You are right though, BE crews should be paid more and permanent lates to earlies rostering is plain shabby.
oap
PS do you really have to pay a fee to be paid.
MOL is a truly class act. The Frenchman still has a lot to learn about ancilliary revenue streams
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wow - what a bunfight! I wonder how much RYR boys will earn when the euro gets to 1.30 to the £, or 1.40 or 1.50?! I also seriously hope that all these RYR guys haven't got their money tied into Irish businesses. Coz its not like ireland has just gone bust and is going to massively raise taxes anytime soon is it.....
Also watch the face of a mortgage broker when you ask how much you can borrow when you are paid to an irish tax dodge, company in euros. It sure would be a picture!
Anyhoo back on topic are flybe actually recruiting or not? Whats the lifestlyle like - the pay I can work out for myself after reading all this!
Also watch the face of a mortgage broker when you ask how much you can borrow when you are paid to an irish tax dodge, company in euros. It sure would be a picture!
Anyhoo back on topic are flybe actually recruiting or not? Whats the lifestlyle like - the pay I can work out for myself after reading all this!
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Many pilots are against paying for a type rating but doesn't it amount to the same thing!
Airline A (RYR) - pay for your own rating but earn more money
Airline B (FLYBE) - get bonded for a type rating but earn less
I think any sensible person would do the maths and should Airline A be the best option financially, go to the bank and take out a loan! Obviously there are other factors, the biggest being risk. Others could be pension schemes, rosters and the list goes on.
And I must agree with VJW on one thing, a B737 rating is far more useful than a Q400, that's a no brainer. An international job search will throw up plenty of jobs for the 737 and A320 family. Ultimately its up to the individual to decide what suites them best and not criticize others for their decisions.
Airline A (RYR) - pay for your own rating but earn more money
Airline B (FLYBE) - get bonded for a type rating but earn less
I think any sensible person would do the maths and should Airline A be the best option financially, go to the bank and take out a loan! Obviously there are other factors, the biggest being risk. Others could be pension schemes, rosters and the list goes on.
And I must agree with VJW on one thing, a B737 rating is far more useful than a Q400, that's a no brainer. An international job search will throw up plenty of jobs for the 737 and A320 family. Ultimately its up to the individual to decide what suites them best and not criticize others for their decisions.
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It absolutely is a no brainer that a Boeing 737-800 TR is better than a Q400. I don't think anyone is disputing that. VJW seemed to throw this one in the mix from nowhere. If I made the point about not buying a 738 rating, it wasn't because I'd rather buy a Q4 rating, hell, who would? 
But more the fact that if I even had the money to pay for a rating it would be a 320 rating, which, in my humble opinion is a far more useful rating than the 738.
757_Driver
We are taking on people, but from the sponsored hold pools. The MPL guys and girls are just starting online, and a few have started over the past 6 months from the various hold pools we have. The only hold pool they haven't taken from yet is the main hold pool. At a guess there's about 15-20 people in this, and they have been in it for over a year now.
I think as recruitment picks up nationwide they'll have to start taking from, and filling the main hold pool so just bide your time.
As for the lifestyle, well probably the same as alot of airlines. I'm not sure if you are already in an airline or not to compare it? Basically it's ok, but the lates to earlies is a big killer, finish on lates, start on earlies. Especially if you have just come off the back of a 6 day week and then you only get 2 off. The roster is supposed to run something like 5 on 2 off 5 on 2 off 6 on 3 off but it never seems to work that way. Plenty of standbys in the winter, but they have just taken off crew information from the AIMS system, so you can't even see whether or not you're likely to be called any more.
The fact that we get our rosters issued on the 12th of every month can also be a pain, you cannot plan any kind of short term life at all. At best you know what you're working 6 weeks in advance, at worst 2 weeks.
On the whole it's ok, but it could be far, far better with a little thought and want.
Pay wise, as you probably ascertained you start on £25k, you get about £2k per year flight/duty pay. After year 1 you get about a £3k pay rise which is nice, and by the time you are in year 3-4 you should be earning about £35-£37k per year. Apart from that everything is as ppjn states.
CC
But more the fact that if I even had the money to pay for a rating it would be a 320 rating, which, in my humble opinion is a far more useful rating than the 738.757_Driver
We are taking on people, but from the sponsored hold pools. The MPL guys and girls are just starting online, and a few have started over the past 6 months from the various hold pools we have. The only hold pool they haven't taken from yet is the main hold pool. At a guess there's about 15-20 people in this, and they have been in it for over a year now.
I think as recruitment picks up nationwide they'll have to start taking from, and filling the main hold pool so just bide your time.
As for the lifestyle, well probably the same as alot of airlines. I'm not sure if you are already in an airline or not to compare it? Basically it's ok, but the lates to earlies is a big killer, finish on lates, start on earlies. Especially if you have just come off the back of a 6 day week and then you only get 2 off. The roster is supposed to run something like 5 on 2 off 5 on 2 off 6 on 3 off but it never seems to work that way. Plenty of standbys in the winter, but they have just taken off crew information from the AIMS system, so you can't even see whether or not you're likely to be called any more.
The fact that we get our rosters issued on the 12th of every month can also be a pain, you cannot plan any kind of short term life at all. At best you know what you're working 6 weeks in advance, at worst 2 weeks.
On the whole it's ok, but it could be far, far better with a little thought and want.
Pay wise, as you probably ascertained you start on £25k, you get about £2k per year flight/duty pay. After year 1 you get about a £3k pay rise which is nice, and by the time you are in year 3-4 you should be earning about £35-£37k per year. Apart from that everything is as ppjn states.
CC
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£25k + £2k = Insult
And this after having paid thousands and thousands to get trained in the first place. What a crap industry this is. You work your nuts off to get paid peanuts.
Doesn't sound like they let you have much of a life either. If it was a good lifestyle I could accept the ****e pay.
And this after having paid thousands and thousands to get trained in the first place. What a crap industry this is. You work your nuts off to get paid peanuts.
Basically it's ok, but the lates to earlies is a big killer, finish on lates, start on earlies. Especially if you have just come off the back of a 6 day week and then you only get 2 off. The roster is supposed to run something like 5 on 2 off 5 on 2 off 6 on 3 off but it never seems to work that way. Plenty of standbys in the winter, but they have just taken off crew information from the AIMS system, so you can't even see whether or not you're likely to be called any more.
The fact that we get our rosters issued on the 12th of every month can also be a pain, you cannot plan any kind of short term life at all. At best you know what you're working 6 weeks in advance, at worst 2 weeks.
The fact that we get our rosters issued on the 12th of every month can also be a pain, you cannot plan any kind of short term life at all. At best you know what you're working 6 weeks in advance, at worst 2 weeks.
Last edited by Number Cruncher; 23rd Nov 2010 at 10:30.
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Oh great another Ryanair boy...Not quiet sure why you boys are so angry and feel the need to invade other threads telling everyone how wonderfull your jobs are...you sound like beaten wives on Jeremy Kyle....BUT I LOVE HIM!!
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The fact that we get our rosters issued on the 12th of every month can also be a pain, you cannot plan any kind of short term life at all. At best you know what you're working 6 weeks in advance, at worst 2 weeks.
Particularly more so having done quite a bit of work under a certain secondment contract out in the Aegean - roster issue here is the 27th/28th/29th maybe!! of the month for the next month.
Spend a few months out here and you soon realise that Flybe's roster stability and issuance is actually pretty good compared with another regional Q400 operator!
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Oh great another Ryanair boy...Not quiet sure why you boys are so angry and feel the need to invade other threads telling everyone how wonderfull your jobs are...you sound like beaten wives on Jeremy Kyle....BUT I LOVE HIM!!
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For what it's worth I'm not RYR. Whether I am or am not is irrelevant. I'm just simply saddened to see the demise of the T&C's in general, industry wide. I mean come on, £27k??! You don't even have to be a skilled worker (secretaries earn about that and generally don't cough up £100k for the privilege) to earn that elsewhere. Yes we have a lovely job flying planes around and all our mates are envious of us but we all know fair well that we have to put up with a lot of crap and eventually it becomes a means to an end.
In fact, i've done a few jobs and don't think i've ever worked with such a large bunch of dissatisfied people (albeit top blokes) as i do these days. Maybe we all need new jobs?
I hope whatever you Flybe boys are trying to achieve works out and you all end up with a better quality of life one way or another.
In fact, i've done a few jobs and don't think i've ever worked with such a large bunch of dissatisfied people (albeit top blokes) as i do these days. Maybe we all need new jobs?
I hope whatever you Flybe boys are trying to achieve works out and you all end up with a better quality of life one way or another.
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Now now WingoWango sounds like someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!
I was merely highlighting the fact the roster issue date is further down the priority order of main concerns at Flybe. As you know rightly - I've been pretty hacked off with the pay situation for quite some time. The lates to earlies issue, while it hasn't really affected me as an FO, I see how it does affect many of our skippers, and that does need to be addressed.
The roster issue date for me, can be looked at later. Let's just get the two above issues sorted out first.
I was merely highlighting the fact the roster issue date is further down the priority order of main concerns at Flybe. As you know rightly - I've been pretty hacked off with the pay situation for quite some time. The lates to earlies issue, while it hasn't really affected me as an FO, I see how it does affect many of our skippers, and that does need to be addressed.
The roster issue date for me, can be looked at later. Let's just get the two above issues sorted out first.
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Boing7117
Are you saying you don't do lates to earlies in your base? If you do then the lates to earlies clearly affects you. You are right about the roster though, it is not that important an issue as yet, more pressing adventures lie ahead.
Lates to earlies affects everyone (but some aren't worried about it, like yourself). To me it's all part of the bigger picture about our overall lifestyle, and with this latest twist it really is a place pilots want to get out of, and only a place I'd recommend cadets getting into the industry.
Are you saying you don't do lates to earlies in your base? If you do then the lates to earlies clearly affects you. You are right about the roster though, it is not that important an issue as yet, more pressing adventures lie ahead.
Lates to earlies affects everyone (but some aren't worried about it, like yourself). To me it's all part of the bigger picture about our overall lifestyle, and with this latest twist it really is a place pilots want to get out of, and only a place I'd recommend cadets getting into the industry.
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No, of course we do lates to earlies at our base.
In my experience however, I've been rather lucky, I've probably had no more than a dozen occasions in the last couple of years where I've been exposed to the lates-earlies issue.
I have however seen other colleagues face the real brunt of it, particularly skippers.
Your right in what you say about Flybe probably being better suited to low-houred-first-job-out-of-flight-school pilots rather than those with a bit more experience, but maybe Flybe are happy with that? Seems to me that if I left tomorrow, they'd be more than happy to replace me with someone who's costing £4k-£5k a year less. After all, there's an endless stream of low-houred guys desperate for a position in the LHS.
It's a real crossroads here for Flybe I think - these negotiations have to be aimed around whether Flybe wish to be a career airline or continue as they are. My gut feeling is they might make a slight shift towards a career airline (and the package that might go with that) but it probably won't go far enough to convince the masses that will probably end up moving on when opportunities arise.
In my experience however, I've been rather lucky, I've probably had no more than a dozen occasions in the last couple of years where I've been exposed to the lates-earlies issue.
I have however seen other colleagues face the real brunt of it, particularly skippers.
Your right in what you say about Flybe probably being better suited to low-houred-first-job-out-of-flight-school pilots rather than those with a bit more experience, but maybe Flybe are happy with that? Seems to me that if I left tomorrow, they'd be more than happy to replace me with someone who's costing £4k-£5k a year less. After all, there's an endless stream of low-houred guys desperate for a position in the LHS.
It's a real crossroads here for Flybe I think - these negotiations have to be aimed around whether Flybe wish to be a career airline or continue as they are. My gut feeling is they might make a slight shift towards a career airline (and the package that might go with that) but it probably won't go far enough to convince the masses that will probably end up moving on when opportunities arise.