Industrial Action at Flybe?
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Absolutely agree with CB's analysis that the majority of the pilots fit into the 3 types he listed.
And DP you have hit the nail on the head regarding how the mood has changed since those figures came out about the big bonuses.
The main problem is that the Enders, which makes up the biggest proportion in my opinion, don't really mind which way things go.. They will empathise with the FO's with huge training loans that are counting every penny, but are they really prepared to stick their necks out for us Starters and Vote no when this ballot finally arrives? I'm sure some are, but definitely not as many as we need for our biggest collective voice.
Also, a lot of Enders have seen Balpa's perceived failings in the past and have lost faith in them and no longer subscribe, which is a real shame.
I personally think a lot of this airline, but it could be so much better. JF keeps saying in his newsletters how much he appreciates his workforce, so why not show it a bit more. Why not get away from the Training airline image and make people want to stay.
Its disappointing that the Balpa forum is almost dead regarding this Pay subject. More are voicing concerns on here and FlyingBe, I assume due to the advantage of anonymity.
We all need to support Balpa though, that's what it comes down to, or we will forever be moaning and just putting up with it.
Join Balpa, if only for the next year to enable one solid voice.
And DP you have hit the nail on the head regarding how the mood has changed since those figures came out about the big bonuses.
The main problem is that the Enders, which makes up the biggest proportion in my opinion, don't really mind which way things go.. They will empathise with the FO's with huge training loans that are counting every penny, but are they really prepared to stick their necks out for us Starters and Vote no when this ballot finally arrives? I'm sure some are, but definitely not as many as we need for our biggest collective voice.
Also, a lot of Enders have seen Balpa's perceived failings in the past and have lost faith in them and no longer subscribe, which is a real shame.
I personally think a lot of this airline, but it could be so much better. JF keeps saying in his newsletters how much he appreciates his workforce, so why not show it a bit more. Why not get away from the Training airline image and make people want to stay.
Its disappointing that the Balpa forum is almost dead regarding this Pay subject. More are voicing concerns on here and FlyingBe, I assume due to the advantage of anonymity.
We all need to support Balpa though, that's what it comes down to, or we will forever be moaning and just putting up with it.
Join Balpa, if only for the next year to enable one solid voice.
CB
I apologise if I am wrong in this, but I can't help thinking that you are missing the point of how a union works - it can be any union in any industry, be it airlines, railways or coal mines.
You are the union. You can't just say "here's my two percent, now sort it out" and expect someone else to solve your problems. Your company council should have already done a survey of members to see how many would have supported industrial action before they went to the negotiating table. Then they would know how strong their position was. If you and every other member didn't say yes, and mean it, you might as well give up, because without the support of the membership the company council and whoever your full time negotiator is can achieve nothing. They know it and the management know it. A union can only achieve concessions from management if the managers believe that there is a chance of industrial action. It is the unions nuclear deterrent, and without it, even if you don't intend to really use it, you cannot win.
If your analysis of the three pilot groups in flybe is correct, and I'm sure it is, then you are not going to achieve anything. All you will get is what the management want you to get. Last time it was substantial pay rises for Dash captains and trainers because of pilot retention problems. But you got that because thirty pilots a month were resigning at a time when they couldn't easily replaced. Now there are no end of potential F/Os champing at the bit to increase their flying hours who would happily take £21k and a three year bond for a job on a Q400. And I would also suggest that there are plenty of unemployed experienced pilots who would be happy to step into the left hand seat given the oppportunity, even if they do have to go from earlies to lates and eat pot noodles - £52k plus flight pay is far better than £65 per week job seekers allowance.
I suspect that for all the rhetoric in this thread, you will be lucky to get more than a rise in line with RPI, and probably not even that.
And also remember that outside of the flybe bubble the UK is facing massive spending cuts in the public sector. It is going to be short of policemen, nurses, doctors, firemen. Don't even mention the armed forces. Unemployment is going up every day and everyone with any sense is worried about their jobs. How much support do you think that the public will give to a bunch of striking airline pilots ruining their travel plans because they are not happy about being the highest paid turbo prop and regional jet captains in the UK. They won't be hooting in support of your pickets like they did for the firemen.
Jim French knows that. He isn't stupid. I suspect that the company council knows it as well.
I apologise if I am wrong in this, but I can't help thinking that you are missing the point of how a union works - it can be any union in any industry, be it airlines, railways or coal mines.
You are the union. You can't just say "here's my two percent, now sort it out" and expect someone else to solve your problems. Your company council should have already done a survey of members to see how many would have supported industrial action before they went to the negotiating table. Then they would know how strong their position was. If you and every other member didn't say yes, and mean it, you might as well give up, because without the support of the membership the company council and whoever your full time negotiator is can achieve nothing. They know it and the management know it. A union can only achieve concessions from management if the managers believe that there is a chance of industrial action. It is the unions nuclear deterrent, and without it, even if you don't intend to really use it, you cannot win.
If your analysis of the three pilot groups in flybe is correct, and I'm sure it is, then you are not going to achieve anything. All you will get is what the management want you to get. Last time it was substantial pay rises for Dash captains and trainers because of pilot retention problems. But you got that because thirty pilots a month were resigning at a time when they couldn't easily replaced. Now there are no end of potential F/Os champing at the bit to increase their flying hours who would happily take £21k and a three year bond for a job on a Q400. And I would also suggest that there are plenty of unemployed experienced pilots who would be happy to step into the left hand seat given the oppportunity, even if they do have to go from earlies to lates and eat pot noodles - £52k plus flight pay is far better than £65 per week job seekers allowance.
I suspect that for all the rhetoric in this thread, you will be lucky to get more than a rise in line with RPI, and probably not even that.
And also remember that outside of the flybe bubble the UK is facing massive spending cuts in the public sector. It is going to be short of policemen, nurses, doctors, firemen. Don't even mention the armed forces. Unemployment is going up every day and everyone with any sense is worried about their jobs. How much support do you think that the public will give to a bunch of striking airline pilots ruining their travel plans because they are not happy about being the highest paid turbo prop and regional jet captains in the UK. They won't be hooting in support of your pickets like they did for the firemen.
Jim French knows that. He isn't stupid. I suspect that the company council knows it as well.
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Work to rule it is then. Much goodwill has been lost through all this. No matter how you look at it, that is not good for a company. If JF is worth his salt, he will also know this.
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OK - last thing I want to do is piss on a hornets nest - please don‘t think I‘m down on BALPA. The point of my last post was: Their whole raison d’etre is to accurately represent the voice of the their members - their members are REALLY pissed, therefore so too should BALPA be - instead they’ve been wishy washy on this issue. Hell its been bubbling away in one guise or another since before I left in 2008.
Now, in BA BALPA do brilliant work - I cant sing their praise high enough. Continually, and I’ll say it again continually, keeping their finger on the pulse of the pilot community. Barely a week goes by when there aren’t updates or surveys from them - what have your meals been like recently, what do you think of this, or that etc etc. They do sterling work.
But I stand by my statement regarding their handling of this issue - its been very much sub par. So too really are the meals you’re confronted with each day. BALPA see to it that its contractual at BA that crew meals must be ‘…to a first class standard…’ ie serve it up to the ladies and gents paying thousands to go to NY and they should say ‘that’s lovely, thank you’. Its scripture, so it is written, so it is done! Now I grant you sometimes (though rarely) I scratch my head and think: first class where - Ivory Coast Airways? But I think back to the manky 1000 calorie chicken salad special, packet of McVities and Daily Lee Dunkers at Flybe and quickly whoof it down thanking my lucky stars. Youre pissed at the crew food - so too should BALPA be (that’s their job) and yet fast forward more than two years since I left and its still being bemoaned on this very site.
Soon after I join Nigels gang the company crunched the numbers and said that as an airline we had about 100 pilots too many and made no secret that redundancies were being considered - crap my pants I did, I don’t mind admitting it. However, BALPA were bloody first rate - did their own number crunching, came up with proposals, took surveys on them, liased constantly with the company and eventually it all went away like a bad dream - VR was offered (80ish took it), a one year pay freeze was agreed upon with share options for the remaining pilot community further down the line depending on xyz. All done in the space of about 5 months.
Now, I have huge affection for my former colleagues at Flybe. And because I do the level of service they should expect from BALPA (and receive it) should be no less than what we get at BA. Afterall all members pay the same percentage from their wages regardless of company - and given the labour intensity at Flybe I would say my friends there work at lot harder than I do pound for pound.
Enough time has passed on this issue - nearing a thousand days minimum (since I’ve been gone) and yet actually very little has changed. The average FO however in the same time frame (paying about 30 quid a month) has paid just shy of a grand in subs - well shoot me down for saying it, but he might as well have put a match to his money - the foods still dire, the wage still below industry standard, scheduling still leaving everyone knackered - or have I been looking at another version of this website for 2 years?
Now, in BA BALPA do brilliant work - I cant sing their praise high enough. Continually, and I’ll say it again continually, keeping their finger on the pulse of the pilot community. Barely a week goes by when there aren’t updates or surveys from them - what have your meals been like recently, what do you think of this, or that etc etc. They do sterling work.
But I stand by my statement regarding their handling of this issue - its been very much sub par. So too really are the meals you’re confronted with each day. BALPA see to it that its contractual at BA that crew meals must be ‘…to a first class standard…’ ie serve it up to the ladies and gents paying thousands to go to NY and they should say ‘that’s lovely, thank you’. Its scripture, so it is written, so it is done! Now I grant you sometimes (though rarely) I scratch my head and think: first class where - Ivory Coast Airways? But I think back to the manky 1000 calorie chicken salad special, packet of McVities and Daily Lee Dunkers at Flybe and quickly whoof it down thanking my lucky stars. Youre pissed at the crew food - so too should BALPA be (that’s their job) and yet fast forward more than two years since I left and its still being bemoaned on this very site.
Soon after I join Nigels gang the company crunched the numbers and said that as an airline we had about 100 pilots too many and made no secret that redundancies were being considered - crap my pants I did, I don’t mind admitting it. However, BALPA were bloody first rate - did their own number crunching, came up with proposals, took surveys on them, liased constantly with the company and eventually it all went away like a bad dream - VR was offered (80ish took it), a one year pay freeze was agreed upon with share options for the remaining pilot community further down the line depending on xyz. All done in the space of about 5 months.
Now, I have huge affection for my former colleagues at Flybe. And because I do the level of service they should expect from BALPA (and receive it) should be no less than what we get at BA. Afterall all members pay the same percentage from their wages regardless of company - and given the labour intensity at Flybe I would say my friends there work at lot harder than I do pound for pound.
Enough time has passed on this issue - nearing a thousand days minimum (since I’ve been gone) and yet actually very little has changed. The average FO however in the same time frame (paying about 30 quid a month) has paid just shy of a grand in subs - well shoot me down for saying it, but he might as well have put a match to his money - the foods still dire, the wage still below industry standard, scheduling still leaving everyone knackered - or have I been looking at another version of this website for 2 years?
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Excellent post
CB,
Your post is excellent and you must kiss the ground everday you turn up at the gates of T5 or Waterside, I sincerely hope I get the chance to join you one day! I've concluded that the Flybe crewfood is a sure way of killing people who stay here too long to ensure Exeter aren't saddled with people staying and climbing too high up the meagre payscale.
Any news on the type rating restrictions at BA being lifted?? There's about 700 of us here who would like to swap living like a 16th century sailor "Terrible food, miserable living conditions, brutal discipline" for a rather more civilised lifstyle as a Nigel - "How would Sir like his Tournedos Rossini cooked?"
My lips are moist with anticipation... and so are those of my bank manageress!
Your post is excellent and you must kiss the ground everday you turn up at the gates of T5 or Waterside, I sincerely hope I get the chance to join you one day! I've concluded that the Flybe crewfood is a sure way of killing people who stay here too long to ensure Exeter aren't saddled with people staying and climbing too high up the meagre payscale.
Any news on the type rating restrictions at BA being lifted?? There's about 700 of us here who would like to swap living like a 16th century sailor "Terrible food, miserable living conditions, brutal discipline" for a rather more civilised lifstyle as a Nigel - "How would Sir like his Tournedos Rossini cooked?"
My lips are moist with anticipation... and so are those of my bank manageress!
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DP,
I think the crews are great at Flybe. I bury my head in my hands when I read and hear about the crap you still have to contend with. The arterial network that Flybe operates forms part of the life blood of this country - to a greater degree than BA IMHO (lets not get into that - another time, another place maybe) and you don't deserve the way you're treated - any of you!
I'm not a great fan of thread creepers so I'll keep this brief...
I know two people involved with BA recruitment (both are interviewers) - one is a friend, the other a flight deck colleague. Both are good blokes.
Seeing as this is a rumour website, Im gonna start one!
I have been told by one of them that the powers that be have decided that the 80 pilots hired/going through selection at the moment is not enough. And that actually about another 60 are needed.
Apparently that thought has been put to 'the board' - with a decision pending.
Now this is what I was told. As to whether (if true) they would insist on only TR people applying for the ~60 posts I don't know.
Take care all.
I think the crews are great at Flybe. I bury my head in my hands when I read and hear about the crap you still have to contend with. The arterial network that Flybe operates forms part of the life blood of this country - to a greater degree than BA IMHO (lets not get into that - another time, another place maybe) and you don't deserve the way you're treated - any of you!
I'm not a great fan of thread creepers so I'll keep this brief...
I know two people involved with BA recruitment (both are interviewers) - one is a friend, the other a flight deck colleague. Both are good blokes.
Seeing as this is a rumour website, Im gonna start one!
I have been told by one of them that the powers that be have decided that the 80 pilots hired/going through selection at the moment is not enough. And that actually about another 60 are needed.
Apparently that thought has been put to 'the board' - with a decision pending.
Now this is what I was told. As to whether (if true) they would insist on only TR people applying for the ~60 posts I don't know.
Take care all.
CB
I believe, looking from the outside, that Balpa in BA has huge advantages. These are 1) High percentage of the work force are members and 2) The management are prepared to talk to the union.
At a lot of other airlines where recognition has been forced through ACAS with 51% membership the management don't want to talk to them and the members don't understand what I was saying in my previous post. Balpa head office provides the reps and company councils with tools to be used, including each company being allocated it's own negotiator. But after that the Balpa that Flybe pilots have is not the same Balpa that BA pilots have and that is not the same Balpa that BMI pilots have etc. The union at each airline is dependent on the company council members being prepared to go up against the management and not being there to serve their own ends. Anyone who moans about "their" union should be asking "could I do better?", and if the answer is yes they should be standing for election at the next opportunity.
The membership fees doesn't go to the company council members or the reps, who often give up a lot of their own time and also may well earn less in flight pay as a result of union duties. They just get their out of pocket expenses reimbursed. It supports Balpas head office, which in my humble opinion could just as easily be in a set of portacabins in Swindon as in a smart office at Heathrow. Whilst most of the head office staff have the needs of the pilots at heart it should not be forgotten that the more members the more secure Balpa staffs jobs are. It should also, in my opinion, be remembered that about three years ago Balpas full time staff came within days of strike action to preserve their own final salary pension scheme - probably partly financed by membership fees - at a time when only two UK airlines still provided such schemes for employees.
Sorry about drifting off the thread, by the way.
I believe, looking from the outside, that Balpa in BA has huge advantages. These are 1) High percentage of the work force are members and 2) The management are prepared to talk to the union.
At a lot of other airlines where recognition has been forced through ACAS with 51% membership the management don't want to talk to them and the members don't understand what I was saying in my previous post. Balpa head office provides the reps and company councils with tools to be used, including each company being allocated it's own negotiator. But after that the Balpa that Flybe pilots have is not the same Balpa that BA pilots have and that is not the same Balpa that BMI pilots have etc. The union at each airline is dependent on the company council members being prepared to go up against the management and not being there to serve their own ends. Anyone who moans about "their" union should be asking "could I do better?", and if the answer is yes they should be standing for election at the next opportunity.
The membership fees doesn't go to the company council members or the reps, who often give up a lot of their own time and also may well earn less in flight pay as a result of union duties. They just get their out of pocket expenses reimbursed. It supports Balpas head office, which in my humble opinion could just as easily be in a set of portacabins in Swindon as in a smart office at Heathrow. Whilst most of the head office staff have the needs of the pilots at heart it should not be forgotten that the more members the more secure Balpa staffs jobs are. It should also, in my opinion, be remembered that about three years ago Balpas full time staff came within days of strike action to preserve their own final salary pension scheme - probably partly financed by membership fees - at a time when only two UK airlines still provided such schemes for employees.
Sorry about drifting off the thread, by the way.
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Chief Brody - your assessment of the 3 types of pilot at flybe would have been broardly correct if you'd written it about 3 or 4 years ago, but since then the recession has brought about a huge demographic shift in the pilot workforce at flybe - Desk Pilot alludes to it when he mentions the 30's and 40's Captains, but lets also include the 20's and 30's first officers as well.
This group, 3 or 4 years ago, didn't give a damn what happened at flybe because they believed that in a year, 18 months, or 2 years, they wouldn't still be here. The recession and the growth of the Pay to Fly phenomenon (which is making people wonder if, when recruitment gets going again, there will be opportunities unless you're prepared stump up multi thousand quid) has brought about a huge attitude change - flybe might be it, at least for the forseeable future, so we'd all better start taking an interest.
The change may not be too noticable at the small island and Celtic fringe bases, where people are happy to live where they live and have an easy life, but is very noticable at the large mainland bases such as BHX, MAN and SOU, where there is a growing feeling of anger and resentment in the crewrooms.
BALPA is far from perfect, but it is what we the membership within the company make it, and for the doubters there are 2 compelling reasons to join now:
Firstly; it is the only path to legal industrial action.
Secondly; we have been assured that when the agreement is announced we, the BALPA members, will be balloted on it - no membership: no vote - so if you're not happy with what's on offer (and I suspect that will be a lot of us), and you're not a BALPA member so you can't vote against it - don't whinge!
This group, 3 or 4 years ago, didn't give a damn what happened at flybe because they believed that in a year, 18 months, or 2 years, they wouldn't still be here. The recession and the growth of the Pay to Fly phenomenon (which is making people wonder if, when recruitment gets going again, there will be opportunities unless you're prepared stump up multi thousand quid) has brought about a huge attitude change - flybe might be it, at least for the forseeable future, so we'd all better start taking an interest.
The change may not be too noticable at the small island and Celtic fringe bases, where people are happy to live where they live and have an easy life, but is very noticable at the large mainland bases such as BHX, MAN and SOU, where there is a growing feeling of anger and resentment in the crewrooms.
BALPA is far from perfect, but it is what we the membership within the company make it, and for the doubters there are 2 compelling reasons to join now:
Firstly; it is the only path to legal industrial action.
Secondly; we have been assured that when the agreement is announced we, the BALPA members, will be balloted on it - no membership: no vote - so if you're not happy with what's on offer (and I suspect that will be a lot of us), and you're not a BALPA member so you can't vote against it - don't whinge!
Anodyne,
Do you know exactly what your cc is asking for? Is it the right thing.
Much as people don't like to hear it - flybe captains are better paid than others - for turbo props compare to Eastern, Air Southwest, Logan air, and for jets compare to cityflier and bmi regional. If there is a limited amount of money available and what you say is true then perhaps it should be channeled towards a pay rise for F/Os on year 3 and upwards.
Do you know exactly what your cc is asking for? Is it the right thing.
Much as people don't like to hear it - flybe captains are better paid than others - for turbo props compare to Eastern, Air Southwest, Logan air, and for jets compare to cityflier and bmi regional. If there is a limited amount of money available and what you say is true then perhaps it should be channeled towards a pay rise for F/Os on year 3 and upwards.
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All this business about how lucky we are because we earn more than Eastern etc will become moot in a few years anyway when we're all on E-jets. The Jet scales are there for all to see. JF is on record as saying the Q400s are all being replaced. The company would have to be extremely sure it could stand a long outright war with its workforce should they try to weasel out of it by saying those scales don't apply any more.
I agree I think this deal on offer is likely to be very light on cash and weighted towards giving us a more humane scheduling agreement. This would be very welcome but something which should have been ours years ago anyway not a bone to throw us so they can carry on paying us bottom £.
The elephant in the room though... the new EASA FTLs if they come in as proposed. If those b***ard Eurocrats legislate for 30% more productivity from us, reduced rest etc etc, then (and this applies to all airlines) arguing about 5% here or there goes out the window... I definitely did not sign up for routine 14hr 4 sector early days. I'm nackered enough in the Summer anyway thanks to our lovely rostering. Everything is to be renegotiated as far as I'm concerned.
I agree I think this deal on offer is likely to be very light on cash and weighted towards giving us a more humane scheduling agreement. This would be very welcome but something which should have been ours years ago anyway not a bone to throw us so they can carry on paying us bottom £.
The elephant in the room though... the new EASA FTLs if they come in as proposed. If those b***ard Eurocrats legislate for 30% more productivity from us, reduced rest etc etc, then (and this applies to all airlines) arguing about 5% here or there goes out the window... I definitely did not sign up for routine 14hr 4 sector early days. I'm nackered enough in the Summer anyway thanks to our lovely rostering. Everything is to be renegotiated as far as I'm concerned.
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The scheduling 'improvements' that it seems are going to form part of our pay deal are most likely going to be things that we have been promised for years. They shouldn't be used in conjunction with the pay offer to soften the blow of the likely poor payrise they want to give us.
The scheduling agreement has fundamental flaws that the company know about and keep saying they will change, but only at the cost of something else.
I for one will be turning down any offer where the payrise is below 6%. And i would only accept a payrise that low with significant improvements in the scheduling.
I'm sure JM is loving his salary, bet he doesn't work 11 hour shifts on weekends or bank holidays and have to sit on freezing aircraft because the APU has 120 day ADD and its -10 outside. Things that we 'lived' with before, are now all coming to light for what they are and the company are digging their hole deeper and deeper the longer it takes to resolve.
Now wheres that picket line.....
The scheduling agreement has fundamental flaws that the company know about and keep saying they will change, but only at the cost of something else.
I for one will be turning down any offer where the payrise is below 6%. And i would only accept a payrise that low with significant improvements in the scheduling.
I'm sure JM is loving his salary, bet he doesn't work 11 hour shifts on weekends or bank holidays and have to sit on freezing aircraft because the APU has 120 day ADD and its -10 outside. Things that we 'lived' with before, are now all coming to light for what they are and the company are digging their hole deeper and deeper the longer it takes to resolve.
Now wheres that picket line.....
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I'm voting no to anything below 6% for this last year. I'm also none too happy to the idea of a multi year deal unless it is so spectacular it gives the word spectacular a new meaning! 
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DrumMachine:
Good on you. You've made your career at an outfit that wasn't Flybe. It's good to hear you enjoy your base and the airline. However, your position regarding 2% undervalues the whole pilot workforce at Flybe. I would respectfully ask that you might consider supporting a salary increase that might close the gap between Flybe and other major UK operators.
Please consider the majority of us who haven't made a pile of cash offshore flying longhaul. Unity is the way forward on this one.
Good on you. You've made your career at an outfit that wasn't Flybe. It's good to hear you enjoy your base and the airline. However, your position regarding 2% undervalues the whole pilot workforce at Flybe. I would respectfully ask that you might consider supporting a salary increase that might close the gap between Flybe and other major UK operators.
Please consider the majority of us who haven't made a pile of cash offshore flying longhaul. Unity is the way forward on this one.
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To add my 2pence
Personally the pay deal doesn't effect me as I'm ring fenced (on either RPI or 2% whichever is lower - not asking for shed tears) but I fully agree that anything less than 6% would be an insult. Also having the 2 issues of Pay and Lifestyle clubbed together is a non-starter AFAIAC
Personally the pay deal doesn't effect me as I'm ring fenced (on either RPI or 2% whichever is lower - not asking for shed tears) but I fully agree that anything less than 6% would be an insult. Also having the 2 issues of Pay and Lifestyle clubbed together is a non-starter AFAIAC