Is BA still the Holy Grail of airlines?!
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Never will they miss Little Jonny's school play
Unless one gets into BA in their early twenties this won't happen will it? If they are in their late twenties/early thirties when they join and have kids they won't have the seniority to get to Little Jonny's school play?
Seniority comes with seniority, so Little Jonny won't be so little when it comes round.
Unless one gets into BA in their early twenties this won't happen will it? If they are in their late twenties/early thirties when they join and have kids they won't have the seniority to get to Little Jonny's school play?
Seniority comes with seniority, so Little Jonny won't be so little when it comes round.
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Ballpark time to command? In my case, joined in 1998, LHR command in 2008 (Shorthaul).
For future Nigels, as with current ones, time to command is up there with "how long is a piece of string". Everything is done on seniority (DoJ) so when you have the seniority and you bid for the seat, you will get it subject to passing a command course. Traditionally, rough ballpark seniority numbers based upon 3000 or so pilots are as follows: for the avoidance of doubt and for the DEAF, ROUGH BALLPARK FIGURES:
Shorthaul co-pilot: direct entry
Longhaul co-pilot: 2500 ish or direct entry
Shorthaul command (LGW): 2100 ish
Shorthaul command (LHR): 1900 ish
Longhaul command: 1000 ish
These numbers vary signficantly from year to year depending on retirements, vacancies, movements between fleets, etc. This bid year, the most junior shorthaul command was 1200 ish!!
How long it takes for anyone to get to a particular seniority level depends entirely and only upon the rate of retirements. Currently, very few are leaving as the retirement age has increased recently.
I write, not to put anyone off but to give everyone a sense of perspective. BA is a good place to work on the whole. There is a lot of politics and you either learn to deal with it or learn to ignore it (both techniques work well). Rosters are stable, the company is likely to stay in business for the long term and there is plenty of variety in terms of types, trips, longhaul and shorthaul and the pay is competitive. Seniority governs most of your life so if you're at the back of a recruitment bulge, life isn't fantastic but it will improve the day the next person joins behind you. Whatever your view of "seniority", that's the way it is and it has worked well since before most of the people on the list were born.
We're likely to be recruiting either late 2010 or early 2011 by the way. Not sure whether it's for longhaul or shorthaul though, which will dictate previous experience requirements.
For future Nigels, as with current ones, time to command is up there with "how long is a piece of string". Everything is done on seniority (DoJ) so when you have the seniority and you bid for the seat, you will get it subject to passing a command course. Traditionally, rough ballpark seniority numbers based upon 3000 or so pilots are as follows: for the avoidance of doubt and for the DEAF, ROUGH BALLPARK FIGURES:
Shorthaul co-pilot: direct entry
Longhaul co-pilot: 2500 ish or direct entry
Shorthaul command (LGW): 2100 ish
Shorthaul command (LHR): 1900 ish
Longhaul command: 1000 ish
These numbers vary signficantly from year to year depending on retirements, vacancies, movements between fleets, etc. This bid year, the most junior shorthaul command was 1200 ish!!
How long it takes for anyone to get to a particular seniority level depends entirely and only upon the rate of retirements. Currently, very few are leaving as the retirement age has increased recently.
I write, not to put anyone off but to give everyone a sense of perspective. BA is a good place to work on the whole. There is a lot of politics and you either learn to deal with it or learn to ignore it (both techniques work well). Rosters are stable, the company is likely to stay in business for the long term and there is plenty of variety in terms of types, trips, longhaul and shorthaul and the pay is competitive. Seniority governs most of your life so if you're at the back of a recruitment bulge, life isn't fantastic but it will improve the day the next person joins behind you. Whatever your view of "seniority", that's the way it is and it has worked well since before most of the people on the list were born.
We're likely to be recruiting either late 2010 or early 2011 by the way. Not sure whether it's for longhaul or shorthaul though, which will dictate previous experience requirements.
Last edited by Human Factor; 30th Jul 2010 at 08:50.
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The Airbus Family guys do they operate out of BOTH LGW&LHR or just LHR or LGW exclusively?
LHR - but there have been 3 at LGW, no one really knows the plan, but they are meant to return to LHR
Can anyone fly the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY flight, or is there only a certain 'pool' of pilots that do this route
Only pilots who have bid to do it and are specially trained (all based on seniority)
Could you upgrade into a captain position on Short Haul, then onto Long Haul as captain? Or are you offered a choice of Captain Position Short Haul or SFO Long Haul?
you will be offered SFO LH first, but you can wait for Captain SH (but pay is better SFO LH than SFO SH)
With regards to bases, 747 is at LHR, is 772 at LGW&LHR, or just LHR or LGW exclusively?
only 737's are LGW - pilots for every other fleet are now LHR based and commute to LGW if needed
The Airbus Family guys do they operate out of BOTH LGW&LHR or just LHR or LGW exclusively?
LHR - but there have been 3 at LGW, no one really knows the plan, but they are meant to return to LHR
Can anyone fly the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY flight, or is there only a certain 'pool' of pilots that do this route
Only pilots who have bid to do it and are specially trained (all based on seniority)
Could you upgrade into a captain position on Short Haul, then onto Long Haul as captain? Or are you offered a choice of Captain Position Short Haul or SFO Long Haul?
you will be offered SFO LH first, but you can wait for Captain SH (but pay is better SFO LH than SFO SH)
With regards to bases, 747 is at LHR, is 772 at LGW&LHR, or just LHR or LGW exclusively?
only 737's are LGW - pilots for every other fleet are now LHR based and commute to LGW if needed
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Phensock
As a junior LH FO just thought i would add to your comment. Last year I had possibly 10+ commitments, weddings , birthdays etc etc. I managed to attend all of them via bidding (Very low seniority) swops etc. So even though I don't have any plays to attend you could be the very bottom of the list and still have a say in your roster / life.
Fully agree that seniority comes with time but this is the first airline I have worked with that gives me a say in what I do every month.
BA has its faults but tell me of another airline that gives you this flexibility. ?
As a junior LH FO just thought i would add to your comment. Last year I had possibly 10+ commitments, weddings , birthdays etc etc. I managed to attend all of them via bidding (Very low seniority) swops etc. So even though I don't have any plays to attend you could be the very bottom of the list and still have a say in your roster / life.
Fully agree that seniority comes with time but this is the first airline I have worked with that gives me a say in what I do every month.
BA has its faults but tell me of another airline that gives you this flexibility. ?
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Yep the time to command question is not an easy one to answer. The seniority numbers mentioned earlier are a very good indicator - think of them as triggers if you will. A number which once at or below your bid for command has a good chance. So the question becomes: How long to reach those sort of seniority numbers?
If someone was to ask me in the pub my answer would probably be: between 10 and 15 years from date of joining.
There’s just soooooo many variables.
Do you want your first command to be LH or SH?
Now that the retirement age is 65 (watch this space), how many folk will really stay that long?
What implications will the recent tax changes have - will there be a steady stream of people going part-time freeing up some space below?
Would you consider a Gatwick command - Gatters is afterall considered by some at BA to be the poor relation in the family.
----
Also, the original question was whether BA was still the holy of holys (or words to that effect).
My answer is no. Or more precisely this: BA sits among a group of about 20 airlines (IMHO) - any one of which offer their pilots the same thing - a pleasant lifestyle, a secure working environment and a sensible wage - with a chance to tick all the boxes over the course of their career with them.
----
Little things I like about BA (in no particular order)
1) Whilst no crew food will ever make the Michelin guide its nice that we have some control over what we shovel in. For example I opt for a fruit platter breakfast (in addition to cereal, yoghurt and Danish if the pursers in a nice mood!), a lucky dip lunch (meaning just normal non specific) and a low calorie supper - thinking back to my previous life, hoola hoops, Dairy Lee Dunkers and a chicken mayo salad with more calories than an easter egg come to mind.
2) Like many other airlines we can purchase as many ID90 tickets as we want to - for BA or numerous others in the staff travel scheme. But the bit I like is that from the date you join you are eligible for two club seats anywhere on the network once a year (just pay the taxes) - this becomes first class when you become a skipper.
3) When you take your holiday, if travelling from Heathrow you can use the staff car park free for two weeks.
4) If a qualified volunteer sim panel operator you can take friends and family into the sim when they're not being used for training - 60 quid an hour for a go in a 747 or 777.
5) FSRC or Flying Staff Recreation Club. Basically pay 2 quid a month and when you pitch up at a hotel down route there is gym membership, golf clubs, bikes, tennis rackets, surf boards etc etc there for you to use at no extra cost.
6) NUBRIEF - the pilot briefing pack used by BA. When I worked for my previous employer so much time was wasted downloading and printing met, aircraft and route info most of which was non important anyway. With NUBRIEF you swipe your ID, out comes all the relevant data for you trip, you use the electronic stapler to pop it all together and then go and brief whilst enjoying your discounted cup of designer coffee. Magic.
7) Letters of thanks - ok I am going to be shot to pieces for this with others saying this never happens to them, nevertheless I’ll proceed. Every now and then all of us are asked to step up to the plate and go beyond the call of duty (to borrow the American vernacular) - That said each time I have within a month there has been a letter on my doorstep saying thank you, it didnt go un-noticed and its been added to my file - recognition of a job well done. Did this ever happen at my previous west country based employer - I'll let you guess the answer.
----
Would I ever leave BA? Yes.
But only for a sizeable improvement in my lifestyle. And by this I mean one which warranted the inevitable disturbance on my family life. Is BA the be all and end all, na - but it's pretty darn good.
If someone was to ask me in the pub my answer would probably be: between 10 and 15 years from date of joining.
There’s just soooooo many variables.
Do you want your first command to be LH or SH?
Now that the retirement age is 65 (watch this space), how many folk will really stay that long?
What implications will the recent tax changes have - will there be a steady stream of people going part-time freeing up some space below?
Would you consider a Gatwick command - Gatters is afterall considered by some at BA to be the poor relation in the family.
----
Also, the original question was whether BA was still the holy of holys (or words to that effect).
My answer is no. Or more precisely this: BA sits among a group of about 20 airlines (IMHO) - any one of which offer their pilots the same thing - a pleasant lifestyle, a secure working environment and a sensible wage - with a chance to tick all the boxes over the course of their career with them.
----
Little things I like about BA (in no particular order)
1) Whilst no crew food will ever make the Michelin guide its nice that we have some control over what we shovel in. For example I opt for a fruit platter breakfast (in addition to cereal, yoghurt and Danish if the pursers in a nice mood!), a lucky dip lunch (meaning just normal non specific) and a low calorie supper - thinking back to my previous life, hoola hoops, Dairy Lee Dunkers and a chicken mayo salad with more calories than an easter egg come to mind.
2) Like many other airlines we can purchase as many ID90 tickets as we want to - for BA or numerous others in the staff travel scheme. But the bit I like is that from the date you join you are eligible for two club seats anywhere on the network once a year (just pay the taxes) - this becomes first class when you become a skipper.
3) When you take your holiday, if travelling from Heathrow you can use the staff car park free for two weeks.
4) If a qualified volunteer sim panel operator you can take friends and family into the sim when they're not being used for training - 60 quid an hour for a go in a 747 or 777.
5) FSRC or Flying Staff Recreation Club. Basically pay 2 quid a month and when you pitch up at a hotel down route there is gym membership, golf clubs, bikes, tennis rackets, surf boards etc etc there for you to use at no extra cost.
6) NUBRIEF - the pilot briefing pack used by BA. When I worked for my previous employer so much time was wasted downloading and printing met, aircraft and route info most of which was non important anyway. With NUBRIEF you swipe your ID, out comes all the relevant data for you trip, you use the electronic stapler to pop it all together and then go and brief whilst enjoying your discounted cup of designer coffee. Magic.
7) Letters of thanks - ok I am going to be shot to pieces for this with others saying this never happens to them, nevertheless I’ll proceed. Every now and then all of us are asked to step up to the plate and go beyond the call of duty (to borrow the American vernacular) - That said each time I have within a month there has been a letter on my doorstep saying thank you, it didnt go un-noticed and its been added to my file - recognition of a job well done. Did this ever happen at my previous west country based employer - I'll let you guess the answer.
----
Would I ever leave BA? Yes.
But only for a sizeable improvement in my lifestyle. And by this I mean one which warranted the inevitable disturbance on my family life. Is BA the be all and end all, na - but it's pretty darn good.
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I think Earl and Brody have done you all a service with 2 excellent posts .
I miss BA for all the reasons they have outlined - excellent control over your family and social life being BIG . A happy pilot is a productive one . No job is perfect , but BA have got morale pretty good ( I am not talking about the other lot at the moment ! ).
The DOJ gives you the knowledge that no-one will ever be a DEC and take your rightful command , when you have ticked all the boxes of course.
I was a lucky joiner in 96 ( RHS 747 ) who got a command at LGW after 1 year . This happened because of the ridiculous pay structure at the time , and because of my extensive 737 command experience. I was very lucky in that the pay almost immediately improved for LGW crew and by the time I reached 55 the current all-encompassing pay structure was being introduced . This has of course levelled both playing fields ( LHr and LGW ) so I guess I would agree that current time to command would be 12-15 years ( CURRENTLY ) but this always changes with adjustments to fleet strength and other factors ie more changes to retirement age etc . However , I reckon that any increase in retirement age above 65 , if it were ever to happen , would mean the wrinklies being restricted to RHS . But , I think the rule about 2 60+ year-olds not being allowed to fly together may well scupper any ideas about this ever happening. Rostering / Bidline may well be excellent , but Standbys ( or Reserve in Nigel-speak ) would become fraught .
Its all a bit like cricket when it comes to joining BA or not , win the toss , think about bowling , but bat anyway.
I miss BA for all the reasons they have outlined - excellent control over your family and social life being BIG . A happy pilot is a productive one . No job is perfect , but BA have got morale pretty good ( I am not talking about the other lot at the moment ! ).
The DOJ gives you the knowledge that no-one will ever be a DEC and take your rightful command , when you have ticked all the boxes of course.
I was a lucky joiner in 96 ( RHS 747 ) who got a command at LGW after 1 year . This happened because of the ridiculous pay structure at the time , and because of my extensive 737 command experience. I was very lucky in that the pay almost immediately improved for LGW crew and by the time I reached 55 the current all-encompassing pay structure was being introduced . This has of course levelled both playing fields ( LHr and LGW ) so I guess I would agree that current time to command would be 12-15 years ( CURRENTLY ) but this always changes with adjustments to fleet strength and other factors ie more changes to retirement age etc . However , I reckon that any increase in retirement age above 65 , if it were ever to happen , would mean the wrinklies being restricted to RHS . But , I think the rule about 2 60+ year-olds not being allowed to fly together may well scupper any ideas about this ever happening. Rostering / Bidline may well be excellent , but Standbys ( or Reserve in Nigel-speak ) would become fraught .
Its all a bit like cricket when it comes to joining BA or not , win the toss , think about bowling , but bat anyway.
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Has anyone got any info with regards to pay?
I know it works by rank of how many years you have been with the company but i am interested in approx.fig of one that has been there for 5 years or so.And is your salary capped.Its been a while since PPJN has been updated with BA pay figures.
FO shorthaul? lomghaul? captain short haul? longhaul? etc.Or is it all down to ones senority?
I know it works by rank of how many years you have been with the company but i am interested in approx.fig of one that has been there for 5 years or so.And is your salary capped.Its been a while since PPJN has been updated with BA pay figures.
FO shorthaul? lomghaul? captain short haul? longhaul? etc.Or is it all down to ones senority?
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s it true that BA would only recruit pilots who have completed their flying training on an integrated course
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Is it true that BA would only recruit pilots who have completed their flying training on an integrated course, forgetting about us poor modulars.
Interestingly, after potentially just a year working for another company, you can join BA on a noticeably higher payscale than a SSP and you will be better off than you would have been having joined straight out of Oxford - albeit, you will be a year further down the seniority list.
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I don't believe there are any "holy grail" companies left out there any more. I have a few buddies in BA, and they are very happy. The one thing to consider about joining any European flag carrier (and I'm not talking about Virgin here. :-), is that they are under a lot of strain to uphold the old traditional competitive packages. No doubt, working for a flag carrier will give you the best overall package. But there's been a lot of pressure from the LCC's in recent years, but they've always had their fairly large long haul segment to generate income. Now the pressure is also arriving on that segment. Carriers from the Middle East is dead set on gnawing away on the European carriers' traditional routes (the kangaroo route amongst others).
What has this got to do with the OP, you ask? LOTS. I missed the boat (ie I felt I was too old to wait 10-15 years for command), but I would've loved to join. However, if you join now, you are probably looking at a 25-35 year career prospect. I don't, for one minute, believe that the stories you hear about BA (and other flag carriers) today, will hold true throughout a career.
Holy grail? No! As close as you'll get to the holy grail? Absolutely yes!
If I was in the start of my career, I would join in a split second. If what I've written above is wrong, you'll enjoy a fantastic career in one of the greatest carriers in the world (IMHO). If I'm right, you can ALWAYS go down the contract/expat path. In fact, the latter is almost always a one way street.
What has this got to do with the OP, you ask? LOTS. I missed the boat (ie I felt I was too old to wait 10-15 years for command), but I would've loved to join. However, if you join now, you are probably looking at a 25-35 year career prospect. I don't, for one minute, believe that the stories you hear about BA (and other flag carriers) today, will hold true throughout a career.
Holy grail? No! As close as you'll get to the holy grail? Absolutely yes!
If I was in the start of my career, I would join in a split second. If what I've written above is wrong, you'll enjoy a fantastic career in one of the greatest carriers in the world (IMHO). If I'm right, you can ALWAYS go down the contract/expat path. In fact, the latter is almost always a one way street.
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I can understand BA recruiting from integrated courses due to the continuity in training and the ability to track a candidate's progress all the way through and it makes perfect sense. Would someone be excluded from the recruitment process if they conducted all their training modularly at one school, that also runs integrated courses, due to time constraints/ current work commitments?
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I think the Fedex package is far superior to BA. SWA might even be better. Captains at SWA can make 350k+/USD per year with quite a few days off. Fedex captains are able to make that kind of money without working very hard and they have a superb retirement. I think calling BA the "holy grail" of flying jobs is a bit off the mark.