Anybody who has left this career and done something different?
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Zerotohero, yessss, I fully understand your point. The stuff you mention is taken right out of my mouth. Although,.....when we were younger (I'm 55 now) the live we led was less demanding in that respect that one could cope with the lack of sleep and time differences. There were (probably) no wife, kids and a very daring mortgage to start with. I have flown for a total of 33 yrs of which 23 in jets up to captain 767. I realized that at a certain point you start to evaluate your professional career against your private and social life and then you come to a certain conclusion. Mine was, let's take a daring step and go for something else. Luckily financially I can wait it out for a bit. The 'something else' has not materialized yet in my mind but I am absolutely sure it will in the end. What I have experienced up to now is that I don't miss anything except sometimes the pure control of an airplane, my colleagues and the dynamics of our trade. Getting up at 3 or sitting there for over 10 hrs, long night flights, time differences and coming home feeling like a zombie saying "please, please, NOT now, tomorrow" I DON'T MISS.
What the future will bring? I will see, luckily I am in a rather luxurious position.
May be I will go back to smaller equipment, always enjoyed that, but.....then I was young and eager. Decisions, decisions. Or as the Indians always say "What to do" and then they nod there heads in that very Indian way.
What the future will bring? I will see, luckily I am in a rather luxurious position.
May be I will go back to smaller equipment, always enjoyed that, but.....then I was young and eager. Decisions, decisions. Or as the Indians always say "What to do" and then they nod there heads in that very Indian way.
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I'd love too see some positive's here but yet again I cant. sorry now this is just someone who's at the start of my career( pre cpl's ). I'm sure people will be shouting at there pc telling me too look elsewhere. Quite disheartening
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Jason, surely you're aware of what the positives are for you? After all you have ended up at the stage where you're on your way to a pilot career.
But given that you may or may not invest €87,500 - which you'll have to pay back out of net earnings (so if we're generous and call tax about 30ish%) then you'll have to find a job that'll somehow produce wages of €120,000 over whatever timescale you're going for - and that's before accounting for your living costs and the ever-compunding interest on your loan.
Then of course you've got to take a look at the jobs market - and given that the likes of me and others in airline employment (which is the canary of an already sick economy as well as a reliable destroyer of value) have sold you and the rest to come down the river so you can essentially temp for maybe a grand take home a month, you'd probably be wise to bear in mind the reflections of those who don't have your problems yet still don't see aviation as a viable career for them. It would be a good investment to understand why they feel the way they do.
Best of luck to you.
But given that you may or may not invest €87,500 - which you'll have to pay back out of net earnings (so if we're generous and call tax about 30ish%) then you'll have to find a job that'll somehow produce wages of €120,000 over whatever timescale you're going for - and that's before accounting for your living costs and the ever-compunding interest on your loan.
Then of course you've got to take a look at the jobs market - and given that the likes of me and others in airline employment (which is the canary of an already sick economy as well as a reliable destroyer of value) have sold you and the rest to come down the river so you can essentially temp for maybe a grand take home a month, you'd probably be wise to bear in mind the reflections of those who don't have your problems yet still don't see aviation as a viable career for them. It would be a good investment to understand why they feel the way they do.
Best of luck to you.
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Thanks for the input Caudillo. Its been a tough decision alright and thank god I've had some very good input from both this site and from out of work pilots. Dont get me wrong I have talking too in work pilots too and they been honest have been very good with there input too. The general seems too be keep it as a hobby and stay clear of it as a job. I know what your saying about the money side alright especially if a TR is added too the price. Its just a shame really
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There is one ubiquotous problem with 'flying' as a career.
It is nearly impossible to earn a living performing a function others are willing to pay to do.
Hence 'Pay to Fly' et al. I can't imagine the engineers as a creed engaging in such stupidity.
We even have scams like the 'Baby Branson' farce with 'Varsity'; folks are so desperate to get a 'white shirt' and gold bars on.
It is becoming hard to consider 'Flying' as a viable career. It's more a short term egotistic indulgence.
Sorry for any spelling; blame the blackberry / bus ride.
It is nearly impossible to earn a living performing a function others are willing to pay to do.
Hence 'Pay to Fly' et al. I can't imagine the engineers as a creed engaging in such stupidity.
We even have scams like the 'Baby Branson' farce with 'Varsity'; folks are so desperate to get a 'white shirt' and gold bars on.
It is becoming hard to consider 'Flying' as a viable career. It's more a short term egotistic indulgence.
Sorry for any spelling; blame the blackberry / bus ride.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Fortunately I have a good job and enjoy it. For once I was in the right place at the right time.
One of our captains was with BA. He left it and headed to the US to do some thing different. Ended up with his own business but after a couple of years, came back to the UK and took up bizjet flying.
Whilst not quite leaving the industry, he did leave a well paid BA command position.
One of our captains was with BA. He left it and headed to the US to do some thing different. Ended up with his own business but after a couple of years, came back to the UK and took up bizjet flying.
Whilst not quite leaving the industry, he did leave a well paid BA command position.
My background is military Jet flying for 21 years, having flown 3.300 hrs in F4 Phantom II, over 1.000 of them as instructor. I left the military in 1994 with a valid ATPL +longrange qualification and was unable to get a flying job. It was the wrong time and i started another job to feed my family and pay my house. Today i´m glad about it, it saved me probably a lot of trouble.
We have a squadron reunion every second year, talk a lot about our former military flying, and also about the after life. There is not a single pilot, who is really happy with his civil flying job, regardless of company and position (most being captains anyway). Most are looking forward to the point, when they will retire. Divorce rate during military career was high, but those guys now flying comercial are topping it.
30 years ago it was a dream come true to become a pilot with an "airline", today its just a job in the "industry".
franzl
We have a squadron reunion every second year, talk a lot about our former military flying, and also about the after life. There is not a single pilot, who is really happy with his civil flying job, regardless of company and position (most being captains anyway). Most are looking forward to the point, when they will retire. Divorce rate during military career was high, but those guys now flying comercial are topping it.
30 years ago it was a dream come true to become a pilot with an "airline", today its just a job in the "industry".
franzl
RetiredF4
There is not a single pilot, who is really happy with his civil flying job, regardless of company and position
...whatever floats your boast I guess.
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[QUOTE] that the pay would be under $100,000 for Captains and under $50,000 for the FO by the time all was said and done [/QUOTE
At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!!
HW
At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!!
HW
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[quote]
If that's index linked, i'll fire up the quattro !
that the pay would be under $100,000 for Captains and under $50,000 for the FO by the time all was said and done [/QUOTE
At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!!
At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!!
6 years in industry - late starter - started on the twotter, 12m Dash 8, 12m (almost) 732, and two years or so 733.
Got booted out last year. Miss a few things, the flying is not actually one of them. I don't also miss the backstabbing infighting sh*t stirring colleagues (well most of them
) nor the soul destroying hours, nor the mediocre pay, nor the ever-distant command prospects.
Now back to being a nomadic wanderer through obscure countries. People I meet are incredulous I could give up what they perceive as a glamtastic lifestyle. Suckers.
The Grass is not always greener on the other side. I for one am not going back to flying.
Got booted out last year. Miss a few things, the flying is not actually one of them. I don't also miss the backstabbing infighting sh*t stirring colleagues (well most of them
) nor the soul destroying hours, nor the mediocre pay, nor the ever-distant command prospects.Now back to being a nomadic wanderer through obscure countries. People I meet are incredulous I could give up what they perceive as a glamtastic lifestyle. Suckers.
The Grass is not always greener on the other side. I for one am not going back to flying.
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Interesting thread
Interesting thread.
I have been committing aviation in one form or another for 30 years now. The industry is most certainly not what it once was and, in all probability, never will be again.
I think it is very easy to get blinkered into only looking at the issues within one's own airline rather than looking at the situation from an industry perspective.
I still thoroughly enjoy 'the job' once the wheels are up but the 'buggeration factors' on the ground (can I say that?) combined with HR trying to get blood out of a stone at every opportunity mean that I feel that I am viewed as a necessary but unwelcome expense that is to be squeezed at every opportunity. That corporate attitude does not promote pride in one's job or one's company and could even be presented as a flight safety issue. However, I'm sure that the industry HR bods have already 'done the numbers' on that particular scenario and are quite happy with the status quo so, what to do?
My current gig will probably be my last airline job for a variety of personal, professional and health reasons. When the time comes, I will take early retirement (from aviation) and look back fondly at most of my flying career - but will I miss it? Not on your Nelly! Plans are already in hand for the next phase of my working life and, as it involves being self employed and working mostly from home, there is flexibility in the timing.
If you are 18-21 years of age, reading this and contemplating a career in commercial aviation, my advice would be quite simple:
Don't do it.
It's so easy to be suckered in by the so called glamorous life style etc, but before you know where you are, you are in your late 20's or early 30's, seriously in debt, bonded, can't afford to resign, still in the right seat, at the bottom of a long and distinguished seniority list, watching your T's & C's degrade in real terms year on year, have no social life, and are already too old to start at the bottom of most other careers - even if you could extricate yourself from aviation.
I am most certainly not bitter and twisted (I have been lucky and my career has been both varied and rewarding) but if you are young and contemplating a career in aviation, be warned; it's no longer what it was!
If you want money, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc. If you want to fly airplanes, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc and fly one in your spare time.
I have been committing aviation in one form or another for 30 years now. The industry is most certainly not what it once was and, in all probability, never will be again.
I think it is very easy to get blinkered into only looking at the issues within one's own airline rather than looking at the situation from an industry perspective.
I still thoroughly enjoy 'the job' once the wheels are up but the 'buggeration factors' on the ground (can I say that?) combined with HR trying to get blood out of a stone at every opportunity mean that I feel that I am viewed as a necessary but unwelcome expense that is to be squeezed at every opportunity. That corporate attitude does not promote pride in one's job or one's company and could even be presented as a flight safety issue. However, I'm sure that the industry HR bods have already 'done the numbers' on that particular scenario and are quite happy with the status quo so, what to do?
My current gig will probably be my last airline job for a variety of personal, professional and health reasons. When the time comes, I will take early retirement (from aviation) and look back fondly at most of my flying career - but will I miss it? Not on your Nelly! Plans are already in hand for the next phase of my working life and, as it involves being self employed and working mostly from home, there is flexibility in the timing.
If you are 18-21 years of age, reading this and contemplating a career in commercial aviation, my advice would be quite simple:
Don't do it.
It's so easy to be suckered in by the so called glamorous life style etc, but before you know where you are, you are in your late 20's or early 30's, seriously in debt, bonded, can't afford to resign, still in the right seat, at the bottom of a long and distinguished seniority list, watching your T's & C's degrade in real terms year on year, have no social life, and are already too old to start at the bottom of most other careers - even if you could extricate yourself from aviation.
I am most certainly not bitter and twisted (I have been lucky and my career has been both varied and rewarding) but if you are young and contemplating a career in aviation, be warned; it's no longer what it was!
If you want money, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc. If you want to fly airplanes, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc and fly one in your spare time.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 29th May 2010 at 01:35.
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What a load of negative stuff here.
I am 26 years old. Last year I made 130k dollars gross as a first officer on the A320. And this is just the airline income, have some other jobs as well. I am loving every minute of it. Although it is very boring........
It really is what you make of it.....
I am 26 years old. Last year I made 130k dollars gross as a first officer on the A320. And this is just the airline income, have some other jobs as well. I am loving every minute of it. Although it is very boring........
It really is what you make of it.....
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OPEN DES,You are a very lucky guy, an exception to the rule!
Well, I am currently employed for a South America company, reasonable well paid but the worst roster in the planet that means no social and familiar life... Terrible hotel layovers, morale at ground level and besides that the company has a quite complicated safety records.
I am looking forward to moving away.
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OD - Dude, it's a negative topic. Happy people, such as yourself, don't tend to leave to do something else.
Having said that, I haven't really seen a truly negative post in this little thread. Just people recounting stories of colleagues that have left or, indeed, telling their own tales of why they have left or are going to leave.
Although slightly dubious about your quoted earnings (not trying to provoke an argument, btw) most FO's at my company make that or more depending on the exchange rate.
As I said in my earlier post, my hat is off (not that I would actually wear the damn thing) to anyone doing the job who is enjoying it. People still need to get from A to B, planes still need to fly and someone needs to be there to actually fly them, or at least push the right buttons.
If you think the job is boring at 26, how do you think you'll view the job at 36? How will you feel when one of your other jobs starts earning you more than the airline flying? What will you do when you enjoy doing another job more than the flying? That's all this thread seems to be about, my friend.
'The job is what you make it' Never a truer word has been said and I would like to think that all of us do that. I certainly make the best of what I now consider a crap job. I usually fly with friends, I usually get to decide, within reason, where I fly and on what days I'll go to work (alright, who's jealous?). I also tend to only work between 8 and 10 days a month. I'm still leaving.
With the exception of the 'committing aviation' comment, the above post from Bannannas x 2 sums up what a lot of us feel. Best of luck with the new endeavors, mate.
Posting twice in one year, yikes! If it weren't for the hilarious cabin crew thread, I wouldn't even look at this site - I've got a reputation to protect.
Cheers
Buter
Having said that, I haven't really seen a truly negative post in this little thread. Just people recounting stories of colleagues that have left or, indeed, telling their own tales of why they have left or are going to leave.
Although slightly dubious about your quoted earnings (not trying to provoke an argument, btw) most FO's at my company make that or more depending on the exchange rate.
As I said in my earlier post, my hat is off (not that I would actually wear the damn thing) to anyone doing the job who is enjoying it. People still need to get from A to B, planes still need to fly and someone needs to be there to actually fly them, or at least push the right buttons.
If you think the job is boring at 26, how do you think you'll view the job at 36? How will you feel when one of your other jobs starts earning you more than the airline flying? What will you do when you enjoy doing another job more than the flying? That's all this thread seems to be about, my friend.
'The job is what you make it' Never a truer word has been said and I would like to think that all of us do that. I certainly make the best of what I now consider a crap job. I usually fly with friends, I usually get to decide, within reason, where I fly and on what days I'll go to work (alright, who's jealous?). I also tend to only work between 8 and 10 days a month. I'm still leaving.
With the exception of the 'committing aviation' comment, the above post from Bannannas x 2 sums up what a lot of us feel. Best of luck with the new endeavors, mate.
Posting twice in one year, yikes! If it weren't for the hilarious cabin crew thread, I wouldn't even look at this site - I've got a reputation to protect.
Cheers
Buter
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I used to caddy at Wentworth as a 17 yr old in the school holidays. A 10 shilling note as a tip was a fortune to me, considering it would buy 100 ciggies. How much does 20 fags cost these days? I've no idea as I fortunately stopped about 25 years ago. I could make £2-£3 a day, 7 days a week, tax free and managed to buy a fairly decent car after just one summer working there. So I believe Jaydubya when he says he is happy as a caddy there today.
I flew in the RAF from age 20 to 29 and in civil aviation until I left last year, age 58. After 38 years flying I had had enough. As mentioned, the 0400 wake up calls, getting back to base after dark for 4 months every winter were just becoming too much. I loved the job for the first 10 years or so when times were definitely different but lately it just got too much of a struggle to whip up the enthusiasm I once took for granted. The rewards seemed to be ever diminishing and the demands ever increasing. Life should take on more mellow dimension when you pass 55 or so and for me, aviation was causing my outlook to be getting ever darker by the day.
If I had the option again, bearing in mind the newly qualified ATPLs route to the right hand seat of an airline in the 'stepping-stone' airlines, I would not join the industry today. The investemnt/reward ratio is just too unbalanced nowadays.
I would buy a yacht and do what I did for 10 years when I worked part-time, chartering in the Med in the summer and travelling in Asia in the winters. Now I have the chance to resume that way of life very soon and I wish I had done it 30 years ago!
Someone told me the story of the young boy on the jetty with his fishing rod looking up at the big jet in the sky and telling his friend that he wished he was up there. The captain looked down and said to his co-pilot, I wish I was down there fishing. There is a lot of truth in that little scenario.
I flew in the RAF from age 20 to 29 and in civil aviation until I left last year, age 58. After 38 years flying I had had enough. As mentioned, the 0400 wake up calls, getting back to base after dark for 4 months every winter were just becoming too much. I loved the job for the first 10 years or so when times were definitely different but lately it just got too much of a struggle to whip up the enthusiasm I once took for granted. The rewards seemed to be ever diminishing and the demands ever increasing. Life should take on more mellow dimension when you pass 55 or so and for me, aviation was causing my outlook to be getting ever darker by the day.
If I had the option again, bearing in mind the newly qualified ATPLs route to the right hand seat of an airline in the 'stepping-stone' airlines, I would not join the industry today. The investemnt/reward ratio is just too unbalanced nowadays.
I would buy a yacht and do what I did for 10 years when I worked part-time, chartering in the Med in the summer and travelling in Asia in the winters. Now I have the chance to resume that way of life very soon and I wish I had done it 30 years ago!
Someone told me the story of the young boy on the jetty with his fishing rod looking up at the big jet in the sky and telling his friend that he wished he was up there. The captain looked down and said to his co-pilot, I wish I was down there fishing. There is a lot of truth in that little scenario.
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Good question
Good question, I recently took a part time gig on the A340 and I have the young girls in the back hooking customers and going to my new apartment in Montreal to turn tricks... I manage them, deal with the cash and I have started to double my income.... and besides, the girls can scope out who they want or think needs a good bang'in from the business class.... works great!
You should try it sometimes! The girls are real happy with the extra cash!
Easy money!
Ciao,
6to8
You should try it sometimes! The girls are real happy with the extra cash!
Easy money!Ciao,
6to8
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Considering to throw it in...
Interesting thread.
I've been in the industry for about 4-5 years and I'm thinking about chucking in the towel. I was raised into the industry by my dad, working for SAS at the time. He taught me everything about flying starting out with model airplanes moving into gliders when I was 15. I managed to secure a sponsorship ending up with a government sponsored CPL fATPL in 2006. At that time i felt really lucky. Throughout this period, my dad, my teachers and many here on PPrune gave me an insight into the job and more importantly, the underlying factors of flight safety.
Up to the point where my first employer took over the educational responsibility, I'd had first class training. My type-rating though on the Saab was more or less a joke. This was in 2006 and I was told by friends and colleagues that this was unusual. Training is normally a highly prioritized part of the airlines budget. From then on, my type-rating training became par for the course. I've never in 4 years since, seen a properly conducted company training course of any kind. It's all been a waste of time and I feel that my knowledge base is norrower today than it was when I started out. I have more experience from the line and this helps me out in my current company, but my standards have dropped and I'm unable to find motivation to pick them up.
Comparing my experience of the industry with the picture I had when beginning, I just can't understand where things went wrong. I have a very hard time accepting that management is dismantling every aspect of the job that I like. I feel that no part of what I do on the line is appreciated by anyone, least of all my colleagues who are all very complacent and bored to death by flying the same 35 minute route 6 times a day.
I've been moved from my base to an outstation once and been made redundant twice during the course of 4 years. This last time will result in unemployment in august and looking at my options, I have only one possible employer to apply to if I want to stay in Sweden. If I'm lucky and they accept my application, I'll receive a salary of half of what I'm making today and I'll also have to commute again.
I love flying, when I'm flying with colleagues who also enjoy it and when I feel that the company I'm working for is a decent outfit. I have 37 years to go until my flying life is at it's end and if this is what it's going to be like, well then I might just do something else.
I really enjoy teaching and would love to find a career in which I could use those skills and perhaps also use my experience from the line.
I've been thinking about becoming a regular school teacher.
There are so many things I would like to do, but I'm scared of taking the step towards actually doing them because I'm afraid I'll miss flying.
/LnS
I've been in the industry for about 4-5 years and I'm thinking about chucking in the towel. I was raised into the industry by my dad, working for SAS at the time. He taught me everything about flying starting out with model airplanes moving into gliders when I was 15. I managed to secure a sponsorship ending up with a government sponsored CPL fATPL in 2006. At that time i felt really lucky. Throughout this period, my dad, my teachers and many here on PPrune gave me an insight into the job and more importantly, the underlying factors of flight safety.
Up to the point where my first employer took over the educational responsibility, I'd had first class training. My type-rating though on the Saab was more or less a joke. This was in 2006 and I was told by friends and colleagues that this was unusual. Training is normally a highly prioritized part of the airlines budget. From then on, my type-rating training became par for the course. I've never in 4 years since, seen a properly conducted company training course of any kind. It's all been a waste of time and I feel that my knowledge base is norrower today than it was when I started out. I have more experience from the line and this helps me out in my current company, but my standards have dropped and I'm unable to find motivation to pick them up.
Comparing my experience of the industry with the picture I had when beginning, I just can't understand where things went wrong. I have a very hard time accepting that management is dismantling every aspect of the job that I like. I feel that no part of what I do on the line is appreciated by anyone, least of all my colleagues who are all very complacent and bored to death by flying the same 35 minute route 6 times a day.
I've been moved from my base to an outstation once and been made redundant twice during the course of 4 years. This last time will result in unemployment in august and looking at my options, I have only one possible employer to apply to if I want to stay in Sweden. If I'm lucky and they accept my application, I'll receive a salary of half of what I'm making today and I'll also have to commute again.
I love flying, when I'm flying with colleagues who also enjoy it and when I feel that the company I'm working for is a decent outfit. I have 37 years to go until my flying life is at it's end and if this is what it's going to be like, well then I might just do something else.
I really enjoy teaching and would love to find a career in which I could use those skills and perhaps also use my experience from the line.
I've been thinking about becoming a regular school teacher.
There are so many things I would like to do, but I'm scared of taking the step towards actually doing them because I'm afraid I'll miss flying.
/LnS