BALPA - Finally had enough
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Paul stop whining and get yourself onto the CC you despise and show them how it’s done.
Paul pays for a dog. So should he have to bark himself?
See SC's post above ^
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What 1% is that? Since the BALPA subscription is tax deductable I can’t work out where the 1% is you talk about.
As for “useless” take a look at the various T&C’s on offer and see which company is currently offering the best. Then look at what percentage of BALPA membership is in that company? It could be coincidence but I doubt it.
If all you want is legal representation then there are cheaper ways to get it…but the cover offered is very limited and the lawyers won’t just take up your case because you say so. They will look at the case merits and decide if they stand a good chance of winning and go from there…just like BALPA. They also won’t help you keep your job when you suffer that brain fart as we all sometimes do. They won’t be lobbying parliament etc etc. I’ve sat as condemned prisoner’s friend on more than one occasion. We got results that no lawyer would achieve.
As I found out when I got involved, BALPA do a better job than most people believe. There is a staggering amount of work going on behind the scenes that is not apparent unless you look or suddenly find yourself doing it. It’s not perfect by any stretch of imagination but there is nothing currently on offer that is better.
Having seen first hand some of the wheezes tabled by our management (and they are an enlightened lot when compared to some) I have realised that the Victorian mill owner mindset is alive and well in 2010.
Paul is not paying for a dog, he is joining an association. That association helps him achieve his aims through collective action and effort. If it fails him as he claims, then he needs to ensure that that is corrected. If the majority of his colleagues agree with him, then he and his colleagues have to get off their backsides and stand together and resolve the issue.
BALPA is Paul and his colleagues, not some super hero army that will ride in and fight their battles for them.
As for “useless” take a look at the various T&C’s on offer and see which company is currently offering the best. Then look at what percentage of BALPA membership is in that company? It could be coincidence but I doubt it.
If all you want is legal representation then there are cheaper ways to get it…but the cover offered is very limited and the lawyers won’t just take up your case because you say so. They will look at the case merits and decide if they stand a good chance of winning and go from there…just like BALPA. They also won’t help you keep your job when you suffer that brain fart as we all sometimes do. They won’t be lobbying parliament etc etc. I’ve sat as condemned prisoner’s friend on more than one occasion. We got results that no lawyer would achieve.
As I found out when I got involved, BALPA do a better job than most people believe. There is a staggering amount of work going on behind the scenes that is not apparent unless you look or suddenly find yourself doing it. It’s not perfect by any stretch of imagination but there is nothing currently on offer that is better.
Having seen first hand some of the wheezes tabled by our management (and they are an enlightened lot when compared to some) I have realised that the Victorian mill owner mindset is alive and well in 2010.
Paul is not paying for a dog, he is joining an association. That association helps him achieve his aims through collective action and effort. If it fails him as he claims, then he needs to ensure that that is corrected. If the majority of his colleagues agree with him, then he and his colleagues have to get off their backsides and stand together and resolve the issue.
BALPA is Paul and his colleagues, not some super hero army that will ride in and fight their battles for them.
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As per DiagonalLeg earlier, I have no real strong feelings in this fight.
I'm not working as a pilot, not looking like I ever will due to advancing years, necessity for return on my training investment and economic outlook, so I gave up my student membership.
The only real gripe I have with Balpa (as opposed to impressions of) is that they do absolutely nothing at all whatsoever (and I'm labouring this point deliberately) to help or protect anyone that doesn't actually have a CC - the student members, the qualified but unemployed or the single pilot Ops guys.
However, the main point I wanted to bring up is that time and time again we see comments like:
So, if Balpa are recognised - by those that actually support them!!! - as being of limited or zero power, then what the chuff is the point of them; of paying ANYTHING at all to them?
There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?
To mix a metaphore nicely, if Balpa are powerless, then isn't it kind of like buying a dog with no teeth AND having to bark yourself?
I'm not working as a pilot, not looking like I ever will due to advancing years, necessity for return on my training investment and economic outlook, so I gave up my student membership.
The only real gripe I have with Balpa (as opposed to impressions of) is that they do absolutely nothing at all whatsoever (and I'm labouring this point deliberately) to help or protect anyone that doesn't actually have a CC - the student members, the qualified but unemployed or the single pilot Ops guys.
However, the main point I wanted to bring up is that time and time again we see comments like:
Quote:
In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power...
Have to agree 100% with this comment from al446...wake up guys to the 'games' at play in this industry...BALPA are nothing...
In short, neither BALPA nor IPA have any power...
Have to agree 100% with this comment from al446...wake up guys to the 'games' at play in this industry...BALPA are nothing...
There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?
To mix a metaphore nicely, if Balpa are powerless, then isn't it kind of like buying a dog with no teeth AND having to bark yourself?
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BALPA are not powerless, just not omnipotent as some would like.
For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that.
Trust me, BALPA find it hard enough to keep the workforce onside when things go pear shaped. Good luck to you all if you honestly believe your colleagues will stand by you with cash in hand, ready to help you out when the time comes.
For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that.
There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?
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For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that
As such, by reasonable deduction of that logic, BALPA should represent tax payers and not pilots.
BALPA find it hard enough to keep the workforce onside when things go pear shaped. Good luck to you all if you honestly believe your colleagues will stand by you
Both your points For BALPA are, in fact, Against BALPA.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 14th May 2010 at 13:41.
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in today's Daily Maul...
Pilots' leaders urged the new Government today to intervene in the British Airways cabin crew dispute, warning that a wave of strikes from next week threatened jobs.
Meanwhile, BA said a customer survey revealed that passengers preferred volunteer staff who stood in for striking cabin crew during seven days of action in March.
The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) wrote to Transport Secretary Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Vince Cable asking them to help convene fresh talks between the airline and Unite.
British Airways pilots have called on the Government to step in and try to break the deadlock between the Unite union and BA bosses, in a bid to avert 20 days of crippling strikes.
Thousands of Unite members will walk out for five days from next Tuesday, the first of a series of five-day stoppages in a bitter row over jobs, pay and staffing levels.
Meanwhile, BA said a customer survey revealed that passengers preferred volunteer staff who stood in for striking cabin crew during seven days of action in March.
The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) wrote to Transport Secretary Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Vince Cable asking them to help convene fresh talks between the airline and Unite.
British Airways pilots have called on the Government to step in and try to break the deadlock between the Unite union and BA bosses, in a bid to avert 20 days of crippling strikes.
Thousands of Unite members will walk out for five days from next Tuesday, the first of a series of five-day stoppages in a bitter row over jobs, pay and staffing levels.
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Sorry Bruce that is not correct. The complaint is that they pay 1%...they do not. The taxman will refund most of the fee. The fee belongs to the individual not the taxman or any other collection of individuals.
I understood the poster was referring to legal action being taken by an individual and running out of money for the lawyers fees. You are suggesting something else…perhaps an association or something. 
support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?
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Max Cont,
good usage of words, but not quite...
I do indeed mean that if an individual faced legal action, the cost of which exceeded that individuals own legal fund, then other colleagues may contribute some of their own fund, on the basis that they could expect to receive the same backing if they faced the same situation. Admittedly this is, apparently, about as likely as Henry the VIII being suddenly unveiled as a CIA hitman who actually shot JFK from the grassy knoll, but still - the complaint is that BALPA isn't EVEN trying to take the cases on...hence I was speculating that a co-operative (NOT an association...) may be a viable alternative.
Second point, is that I am very agnostic as to BALPA. However, no-one, ever answers the point that BALPA (if it is a true statement to say "BALPA = You, you = Balpa" as is often trotted out) is NOT actually the BRITISH airline pilots association...it's the pilots association of whatever airline it is representing, because it sure as hell doesn't appear to represent the whole and it absolutely, certainly, withou question does nothing at all for those that MOST need it's protection - those that HAVE no CC and have to represent themselves - the newbies, the out of work. Yet Balpa still happily take the money for this...
good usage of words, but not quite...
I do indeed mean that if an individual faced legal action, the cost of which exceeded that individuals own legal fund, then other colleagues may contribute some of their own fund, on the basis that they could expect to receive the same backing if they faced the same situation. Admittedly this is, apparently, about as likely as Henry the VIII being suddenly unveiled as a CIA hitman who actually shot JFK from the grassy knoll, but still - the complaint is that BALPA isn't EVEN trying to take the cases on...hence I was speculating that a co-operative (NOT an association...
) may be a viable alternative.Second point, is that I am very agnostic as to BALPA. However, no-one, ever answers the point that BALPA (if it is a true statement to say "BALPA = You, you = Balpa" as is often trotted out) is NOT actually the BRITISH airline pilots association...it's the pilots association of whatever airline it is representing, because it sure as hell doesn't appear to represent the whole and it absolutely, certainly, withou question does nothing at all for those that MOST need it's protection - those that HAVE no CC and have to represent themselves - the newbies, the out of work. Yet Balpa still happily take the money for this...
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Dear Max,
Now you have completely lost credibility in my eyes: if you think that "tax-deductible" means "free" then we are really missing some very basic knowledge here.
Just before anybody gets an idea that BALPA membership is free, let me explain what tax-deductible is.
First, you have to pay 1% of your income to BALPA (or anybody else) with *real money*.
Then, *depending on your personal tax situation* your taxable income will be reduced by the amount that you have paid in tax-deductibles.
In other words, you don't pay tax over your entire income, but over your income minus the tax deductibles.
Depending on your personal situation, especially if you have a debt or other tax deductibles, this will not help you much. You would not pay that much tax anyway.
If you happen to make loads of money, then depending on the country you are in and in which tax-rate scale you are, you will pay less tax.
Example:
Lets say you earn 1000 EUR a month and pay 50% tax.
Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 50% 500 EUR
Net 500 EUR
With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 50% 495.00 EUR
Net 495.00 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 5 EUR
Now if you happen to pay less tax, lets say 25%:
Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 25% 250 EUR
Net 750 EUR
With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 25% 247.50 EUR
Net 742.50 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 7.50 EUR
Your membership therefore is ABSOLUTELY NOT FREE.
Now you have completely lost credibility in my eyes: if you think that "tax-deductible" means "free" then we are really missing some very basic knowledge here.
Just before anybody gets an idea that BALPA membership is free, let me explain what tax-deductible is.
First, you have to pay 1% of your income to BALPA (or anybody else) with *real money*.
Then, *depending on your personal tax situation* your taxable income will be reduced by the amount that you have paid in tax-deductibles.
In other words, you don't pay tax over your entire income, but over your income minus the tax deductibles.
Depending on your personal situation, especially if you have a debt or other tax deductibles, this will not help you much. You would not pay that much tax anyway.
If you happen to make loads of money, then depending on the country you are in and in which tax-rate scale you are, you will pay less tax.
Example:
Lets say you earn 1000 EUR a month and pay 50% tax.
Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 50% 500 EUR
Net 500 EUR
With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 50% 495.00 EUR
Net 495.00 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 5 EUR
Now if you happen to pay less tax, lets say 25%:
Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 25% 250 EUR
Net 750 EUR
With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 25% 247.50 EUR
Net 742.50 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 7.50 EUR
Your membership therefore is ABSOLUTELY NOT FREE.
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Skipping...I said it was tax deductable not free. I can see from the way I phrased the answer why you were confused.
Until we got the right to claw some of the fee back it was costing us all a genuine 1%. However, we at that time thought it was worth it so we all paid up. Now I get two thirds of my subscription fee back. It’s more than we used to get and a lot better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.
The reason for the large subscription fee is because the association is comparatively small. The cost of doing business is not reduced just because you only have a few thousand members. Try to take on the likes of BA legally and the costs will neuter or bankrupt an under funded association in a few days. The bill for the last spat with BA cost considerably more than most individuals can afford, even with a legal cover policy.
Incidentally, what attracted some people to this job was probably some of the remuneration and working conditions that some of the larger companies enjoyed. That was not bestowed upon us by a magnanimous management in some fairytale; it was fought for, tooth and nail by those BALPA members that went before.
If you as an individual don’t feel you have a long-term future in aviation the fee is probably not worth it. But speaking personally and having been in this game for longer than some pilots have been alive, the younger generation need to stand with us and take up the fight to protect careers and future earnings. (Not to mention a decent quality of life) If you don’t then we’re all stuffed and it saddens me…but then I can retire in 10 years and watch in morbid fascination.
Until we got the right to claw some of the fee back it was costing us all a genuine 1%. However, we at that time thought it was worth it so we all paid up. Now I get two thirds of my subscription fee back. It’s more than we used to get and a lot better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.
The reason for the large subscription fee is because the association is comparatively small. The cost of doing business is not reduced just because you only have a few thousand members. Try to take on the likes of BA legally and the costs will neuter or bankrupt an under funded association in a few days. The bill for the last spat with BA cost considerably more than most individuals can afford, even with a legal cover policy.
Incidentally, what attracted some people to this job was probably some of the remuneration and working conditions that some of the larger companies enjoyed. That was not bestowed upon us by a magnanimous management in some fairytale; it was fought for, tooth and nail by those BALPA members that went before.
If you as an individual don’t feel you have a long-term future in aviation the fee is probably not worth it. But speaking personally and having been in this game for longer than some pilots have been alive, the younger generation need to stand with us and take up the fight to protect careers and future earnings. (Not to mention a decent quality of life) If you don’t then we’re all stuffed and it saddens me…but then I can retire in 10 years and watch in morbid fascination.
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Max,
I actually genuinely agree with a lot of what you have said in your previous post. I completely agree with your comments that all need to stand up (although "snowball" and "hell" are coming to mind for some reason....)
However, whilst you clearly think that defending of the conditions for those at the top end has been worthwhile, do you not feel that those AT the top end have utterly shirked the responsibility to look after those at the bottom end? Conditions have got worse and worse for new joiners, from first "pay for your own type rating with guaranteed job" to "pay for your type rating and we might give you a job" to contracts as opposed to perm, to pay to fly.
I think an AWFUL lot of the malaise that Balpa seems to inspire is driven by the fact that it ISN'T looking after the whole. It IS (from an external point of view at least) looking after the top.
I'm 35, qualified and highly unlikely to ever fly for a living now, but I watch aghast as the only hopes of entering the profession get ever more costly (last two years has seen any kind of scale recruitment costing the cadet in the region of £30k) and for what? a salary that's likely to be £25k?
I'm NOT slating Balpa, honestly I'm not....but from my perspective, they took my money as a student member and gave me NOTHING at all...No representation. The entry level has got ever worse and all the while senior (presumably in your case) Captains seem to be intent on holding on to the Ts&Cs that new entrants will never ever see. THAT is why you have malaise...
Do you feel in the face of that, Balpa have anything to offer to the new entrant, or indeed that the old faces have discharged their responsibilities adequately?
I actually genuinely agree with a lot of what you have said in your previous post. I completely agree with your comments that all need to stand up (although "snowball" and "hell" are coming to mind for some reason....)
However, whilst you clearly think that defending of the conditions for those at the top end has been worthwhile, do you not feel that those AT the top end have utterly shirked the responsibility to look after those at the bottom end? Conditions have got worse and worse for new joiners, from first "pay for your own type rating with guaranteed job" to "pay for your type rating and we might give you a job" to contracts as opposed to perm, to pay to fly.
I think an AWFUL lot of the malaise that Balpa seems to inspire is driven by the fact that it ISN'T looking after the whole. It IS (from an external point of view at least) looking after the top.
I'm 35, qualified and highly unlikely to ever fly for a living now, but I watch aghast as the only hopes of entering the profession get ever more costly (last two years has seen any kind of scale recruitment costing the cadet in the region of £30k) and for what? a salary that's likely to be £25k?
I'm NOT slating Balpa, honestly I'm not....but from my perspective, they took my money as a student member and gave me NOTHING at all...No representation. The entry level has got ever worse and all the while senior (presumably in your case) Captains seem to be intent on holding on to the Ts&Cs that new entrants will never ever see. THAT is why you have malaise...
Do you feel in the face of that, Balpa have anything to offer to the new entrant, or indeed that the old faces have discharged their responsibilities adequately?
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Clanger, you will get no argument from me regarding the lamentable lack of action on P2F and the other cancerous practices that are now endemic throughout our profession.
Are the senior guys at the top in any way responsible for some of what has happened? IMO they are. It was far too easy to let the company (and I mean any company) screw those that had not joined the ranks for some temporary reprieve to their T&C’s. That avoided the need to stand up and be counted. In their defence they had the most to lose and the abyss of industrial action takes on a new reality when you stare over the precipice for real. Especially when it’s for those you don’t know.
We do need to address this problem with some urgency now. The longer we leave it, the harder it will become.
I won’t pretend to even begin to have the solution…but I am certain that this will only be resolved by co-ordinated industry wide action. IMHO leaving won’t solve anything. To influence the outcome you have to be sat at the table…and for right now that means BALPA.
I do know the NEC is aware of the growing discontent over this. Perhaps when the e-mails become a flood from all the membership they will get serious.
Good luck with the job hunt Clanger, don’t give up…you have invested too much blood sweat and tears to walk away now.
Are the senior guys at the top in any way responsible for some of what has happened? IMO they are. It was far too easy to let the company (and I mean any company) screw those that had not joined the ranks for some temporary reprieve to their T&C’s. That avoided the need to stand up and be counted. In their defence they had the most to lose and the abyss of industrial action takes on a new reality when you stare over the precipice for real. Especially when it’s for those you don’t know.
We do need to address this problem with some urgency now. The longer we leave it, the harder it will become.
I won’t pretend to even begin to have the solution…but I am certain that this will only be resolved by co-ordinated industry wide action. IMHO leaving won’t solve anything. To influence the outcome you have to be sat at the table…and for right now that means BALPA.
I do know the NEC is aware of the growing discontent over this. Perhaps when the e-mails become a flood from all the membership they will get serious.
Good luck with the job hunt Clanger, don’t give up…you have invested too much blood sweat and tears to walk away now.
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As there has been some response to my post please let me reply -
To Paul Rice - I did not attempt to "front" BALPA, it was a generalisation about unions, no specific one in mind. Indeed it was a sustained campaign by TUC affiliated unions, of which BALPA is NOT one, which kind of blows your point 4 out of the water and decreases your credibility in my mind, that brought the full recognition to this equal pay legislation. Main unions were T&G (now Unite), Unison and USDAW, sorry if I've missed any. As an aside, the Act was passed in 1970 (under a Labour government) and came into force in 1975.
2. "Protection against Erosion of Terms and Conditions this is a BALPA failure not an achievement.". If you would like to give specific examples I am sure someone may come along and argue it. I was talking in general union terms, not specifics. I am personally quite happy with my union's defence of my conditions, perhaps that is because we have many stood in the wings ready to take over if need be therby keeping our elected officers sharp. There may be a lesson there.
3. P2F is quite legal and sod all any union can do about it. Sorry, that is reality, something that frequently eludes those with a bee in their bonnet. I wish it wasn't so too.
4. From the Guardian 24/01/10 "The joint general secretaries of Unite, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, have asked Barber to discuss the issue with Balpa, which is not affiliated to the TUC." Sorry for reality to intrude again.
5. There is another post on this thread which puts the legal mind succinctly along the lines of "I don't give a toss how much you have paid but your case is a crock of sh1t and any judge not beyond a coma would throw it out"
So far we are not doing well here are we?
To Bruce Wayne asking why have a dog and bark yourself. If you consider the dog to be such as the AA or RAC etc you would be right but it is the wrong analogy, you are not the dog but you ARE BALPA if a member, you don't join a football team to sit on the sidelines while they score goals, unions are no different.
If I have put the last part badly I apologise but hope you get my drift.
To Paul Rice - I did not attempt to "front" BALPA, it was a generalisation about unions, no specific one in mind. Indeed it was a sustained campaign by TUC affiliated unions, of which BALPA is NOT one, which kind of blows your point 4 out of the water and decreases your credibility in my mind, that brought the full recognition to this equal pay legislation. Main unions were T&G (now Unite), Unison and USDAW, sorry if I've missed any. As an aside, the Act was passed in 1970 (under a Labour government) and came into force in 1975.
2. "Protection against Erosion of Terms and Conditions this is a BALPA failure not an achievement.". If you would like to give specific examples I am sure someone may come along and argue it. I was talking in general union terms, not specifics. I am personally quite happy with my union's defence of my conditions, perhaps that is because we have many stood in the wings ready to take over if need be therby keeping our elected officers sharp. There may be a lesson there.
3. P2F is quite legal and sod all any union can do about it. Sorry, that is reality, something that frequently eludes those with a bee in their bonnet. I wish it wasn't so too.
4. From the Guardian 24/01/10 "The joint general secretaries of Unite, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, have asked Barber to discuss the issue with Balpa, which is not affiliated to the TUC." Sorry for reality to intrude again.
5. There is another post on this thread which puts the legal mind succinctly along the lines of "I don't give a toss how much you have paid but your case is a crock of sh1t and any judge not beyond a coma would throw it out"
So far we are not doing well here are we?
To Bruce Wayne asking why have a dog and bark yourself. If you consider the dog to be such as the AA or RAC etc you would be right but it is the wrong analogy, you are not the dog but you ARE BALPA if a member, you don't join a football team to sit on the sidelines while they score goals, unions are no different.
If I have put the last part badly I apologise but hope you get my drift.
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BALPA Consistently failing to Achieve
A few days ago I asked if anyone could suggest anything which could be listed as a key achievement of BALPA over the last 10 years.
So far we have had many responses but no one todate has highlighted anything at all which could be considered to be a BALPA achievment.
Summarising the response I note that
Whyeyeman commented that we pay a lot of money to BALPA and get nothing in return. Whyeyeman stated that
"BALPA are a backward looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutley no culture of getting anything done at the fundemental level"
Council Van continued this theme
"It appears that BALPA are happy to take your cash but if you require any help from them...I would personally put them right up there with our greedy friends in the banking industry"
Bluelearjetdriver stated that
"BALPA are systematically degrading conditions for future generations"
Max Con got it absolutely spot on when he stated that
"The BALPA stick is small and firly limp"
Captain ronweb asserts
"What I am certain of is that Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches with the trail blazers of P2F than he has written letters telling them he is unhappy about this trend"
and Clanger 32 notes that
"My gripe with BALPA is that they do absolutley nothing at all. BALPA is like having a dog with no teeth and having to bark yourself"
Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU but was told that TGWU could not accept applications for membership from pilots because BALPA through the TUC had banned TGWU from admitting pilot members.
Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.
So far we have had many responses but no one todate has highlighted anything at all which could be considered to be a BALPA achievment.
Summarising the response I note that
Whyeyeman commented that we pay a lot of money to BALPA and get nothing in return. Whyeyeman stated that
"BALPA are a backward looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutley no culture of getting anything done at the fundemental level"
Council Van continued this theme
"It appears that BALPA are happy to take your cash but if you require any help from them...I would personally put them right up there with our greedy friends in the banking industry"
Bluelearjetdriver stated that
"BALPA are systematically degrading conditions for future generations"
Max Con got it absolutely spot on when he stated that
"The BALPA stick is small and firly limp"
Captain ronweb asserts
"What I am certain of is that Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches with the trail blazers of P2F than he has written letters telling them he is unhappy about this trend"
and Clanger 32 notes that
"My gripe with BALPA is that they do absolutley nothing at all. BALPA is like having a dog with no teeth and having to bark yourself"
Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU but was told that TGWU could not accept applications for membership from pilots because BALPA through the TUC had banned TGWU from admitting pilot members.
Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.
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So Paul Rice states
Yet in earlier post states
I do wish he would make up his mind. TGWU, now Unite, is one of the largest affiliates to the TUC.
Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU
BALPA is part of the TUC which is embeded in the Labour Party which come to think of it is another failing organisation.
Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.
Excellent joke.
I'd suggest that, if dissatisfied with BALPA either form a new union (oh, isn't there one already?) or, together with a like minded consortium, put yourself up for election and change BALPA from within.
Unite? FFS!
Bas - ex AEU, MNAOA, TGWU - and that's the ones I can remember. Still a BALPA member. Don't know why. Must resign.
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A spokesperson, of BALPA, recently said of the cabin air quality issue
"we are not a union, we are an association to further our members needs and salary", he went on to say that passengers are not anything to do with us.
Sorry that l can`t post the report, but l do believe that l`ve been accurate.
"we are not a union, we are an association to further our members needs and salary", he went on to say that passengers are not anything to do with us.
Sorry that l can`t post the report, but l do believe that l`ve been accurate.
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Well guys, this is a rather pointless discussion, because:
BALPA is run by rather clever guys who have more experience in politics/diplomacy than all the airline pilots in the world together.
Therefore they will never give you a direct answer when confronted with issues and will always keep a nice diplomatic tone and move the focus of the discussion elsewhere, just like max does. Those people are trained for that!
You can never win this.
Just make your conclusions and either shut up or cancel your membership.
When enough of us do that, they'll understand.
BALPA is run by rather clever guys who have more experience in politics/diplomacy than all the airline pilots in the world together.
Therefore they will never give you a direct answer when confronted with issues and will always keep a nice diplomatic tone and move the focus of the discussion elsewhere, just like max does. Those people are trained for that!
You can never win this.
Just make your conclusions and either shut up or cancel your membership.
When enough of us do that, they'll understand.
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Paul Rice, Skipping Classes, Dreamshiner, etc
Max Cont and I (and many others...) work for an airline where were the active involvement of BALPA through our CC more than pays for itself. We know this because it manifests itself daily through our Ts&Cs, and monthly through our pay packets. That's a fact - but no doubt you are about to tell me that I am wrong.....
I read your embittered diatribes with some bemusement. You clearly have passion and energy, but you chose not to make a difference through the most effective vehicle you have at your disposal - BALPA. Tell me, which bit of BALPA-is-only-as-strong-as-its-members didn't you get? Or are you of that generation which trashes anything that doesn't provide them with instant gratification? If you think that ANY union/association is going to be effective without the need for perseverance, sacrifice, and hard graft, you are dwelling in La-La land.
Your calls for the "dissatisfied" to resign membership reminds me of Monty Python's Crack Suicide Squad - spectacularly pointless, and a cringing own-goal.
Max Cont and I (and many others...) work for an airline where were the active involvement of BALPA through our CC more than pays for itself. We know this because it manifests itself daily through our Ts&Cs, and monthly through our pay packets. That's a fact - but no doubt you are about to tell me that I am wrong.....
I read your embittered diatribes with some bemusement. You clearly have passion and energy, but you chose not to make a difference through the most effective vehicle you have at your disposal - BALPA. Tell me, which bit of BALPA-is-only-as-strong-as-its-members didn't you get? Or are you of that generation which trashes anything that doesn't provide them with instant gratification? If you think that ANY union/association is going to be effective without the need for perseverance, sacrifice, and hard graft, you are dwelling in La-La land.
Your calls for the "dissatisfied" to resign membership reminds me of Monty Python's Crack Suicide Squad - spectacularly pointless, and a cringing own-goal.
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BALPA Failure
For the likes of Weary and Max Con im really genuinely pleased that your are getting benefit from Balpa membership. Really pleased that for you Balpa is working.
But your experiance in your company or your sector of the industry is the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps you working for British Airways whose pilots have always been the most protected darlings of Balpa.
Most people will be pleased to hear that Balpa has done something to improve your terms and conditions and monthly pay cheque but your amusement with others very strong disatisfaction with Balpa smacks of an "im all right jack" sort of attitude and sod the rest of you approach which is part of the division which Balpa has allowed to develop within the industry.
Your unfounded charge (Weary) that critism of Balpa implies that someone belongs to a generation that rejects something that does not give instant gratification is offensive nonsense ?
Which generation are you referring to and seek to insult ?
What evidence do you have that Balpa has been rejected because it did not give instant gratification ?
Do you have any evidence for this crass charge or is your sharp toungue displaying the lack of a sound mind ? Are you the sort of guy that does not need a steak knife but cuts your food with your tongue ? As a BALPA fan your position might be invulnerable afterall what you dont know cant hurt you and to that extent you seem invulnerable.
But your experiance in your company or your sector of the industry is the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps you working for British Airways whose pilots have always been the most protected darlings of Balpa.
Most people will be pleased to hear that Balpa has done something to improve your terms and conditions and monthly pay cheque but your amusement with others very strong disatisfaction with Balpa smacks of an "im all right jack" sort of attitude and sod the rest of you approach which is part of the division which Balpa has allowed to develop within the industry.
Your unfounded charge (Weary) that critism of Balpa implies that someone belongs to a generation that rejects something that does not give instant gratification is offensive nonsense ?
Which generation are you referring to and seek to insult ?
What evidence do you have that Balpa has been rejected because it did not give instant gratification ?
Do you have any evidence for this crass charge or is your sharp toungue displaying the lack of a sound mind ? Are you the sort of guy that does not need a steak knife but cuts your food with your tongue ? As a BALPA fan your position might be invulnerable afterall what you dont know cant hurt you and to that extent you seem invulnerable.