BBC NEWS: 'exploited by employers'
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BBC NEWS: 'exploited by employers'
BBC News - Interns 'exploited by employers', says TUC
Sound Familiar?!
Sound Familiar?!
Yup, but I wish there were more credible organisations talking about the issue.
The BBC are a bunch of Trots and Pinkoes, and the TUC has a massive vested interest.
To gain influence beyond the world of Aviation/pilots, we need more crdible folk telling the story.
The BBC are a bunch of Trots and Pinkoes, and the TUC has a massive vested interest.
To gain influence beyond the world of Aviation/pilots, we need more crdible folk telling the story.
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So the shi* is not happening in aviation only.
How interesting!
OK, so the target is clear: to ban volunteer working in companys other than charity and the like.
Unions should fight for that. No more exploited internship.
Same as workers must have days off and vacations (even if they didn't want to have them), nobody should be allowed to work for nothing, except in charity organisations.
"Hello, I want to pay for a job, and I am even ready to have sex for the job, if that helps"
What should be the answer?
a) "Sorry, Your money is as attractive as you, but the law doesn't allow us to do that"
b) "Sorry, but one of those things is not allowed by law. Now... How much are we talking about?"
c) "It won't help. We just want the money"
d) "Come in darling, and get confortable. Whisky, Vodka? Later on we can discuss the money issue..."
How interesting!
OK, so the target is clear: to ban volunteer working in companys other than charity and the like.
Unions should fight for that. No more exploited internship.
Same as workers must have days off and vacations (even if they didn't want to have them), nobody should be allowed to work for nothing, except in charity organisations.
"Hello, I want to pay for a job, and I am even ready to have sex for the job, if that helps"
What should be the answer?
a) "Sorry, Your money is as attractive as you, but the law doesn't allow us to do that"
b) "Sorry, but one of those things is not allowed by law. Now... How much are we talking about?"
c) "It won't help. We just want the money"
d) "Come in darling, and get confortable. Whisky, Vodka? Later on we can discuss the money issue..."
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
The solution is simple. If people refuse to take these "internships" the employers will have to start paying a going rate. The hard part is persuading people to do this. I recall, back in the early days of paying for a rating, one of our FOs was going for a job where he had to pay for a 1-11 type rating (yes, it's that long ago). When I suggested that it was really prostituting the profession his reply was "I know, but I want to fly a jet, and if I don't do it, someone else will". We all know where that has led us.
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Blaming inexperienced people for this mess is ludicrous. The people who should have stood up and been counted are the experienced and more valuable employees.
If chief pilots, captains, BALPA CC's etc. had stood up to management when this sort of thing started, then we might not have the problems we do now.
People with no experience have no power to change what they are offered, because to put it simply, there are other people out there who will undercut them.
That's the way of the world and to blame inexperienced pilots for it, is absolutely wrong.
We all look out for ourselves first. That's human nature, someone with 200hrs and a frozen ATPL isn't thinking about the good of the pilot community, they have the pressure of enormous debt or simple expectation and want to continue their dream, so haven't got the luxury of getting all holier than thou and turning down jobs because they find paying for a rating etc. distasteful. They have no choice but to accept it.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself what you did as a senior pilot to stop the practise of paying for a job. I'll guess that all that really happened was a bit of whinging and gossip in the crew room.
Apathy is what lead us down the path of SSTR and pay to fly schemes and pilots have no-one to blame but themselves.
If chief pilots, captains, BALPA CC's etc. had stood up to management when this sort of thing started, then we might not have the problems we do now.
People with no experience have no power to change what they are offered, because to put it simply, there are other people out there who will undercut them.
That's the way of the world and to blame inexperienced pilots for it, is absolutely wrong.
We all look out for ourselves first. That's human nature, someone with 200hrs and a frozen ATPL isn't thinking about the good of the pilot community, they have the pressure of enormous debt or simple expectation and want to continue their dream, so haven't got the luxury of getting all holier than thou and turning down jobs because they find paying for a rating etc. distasteful. They have no choice but to accept it.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself what you did as a senior pilot to stop the practise of paying for a job. I'll guess that all that really happened was a bit of whinging and gossip in the crew room.
Apathy is what lead us down the path of SSTR and pay to fly schemes and pilots have no-one to blame but themselves.
Indeed SAS.
There should be more people saying this. Everyone is more than happy kicking the people at the bottom of the ladder.
When it was those at the top who look away...But what do they care...their pensions are secure and not long to go now.
Its now up to us, the middle of the career pilots to start to turn things around. To set an example, as our leaders are just marking time.
There should be more people saying this. Everyone is more than happy kicking the people at the bottom of the ladder.
When it was those at the top who look away...But what do they care...their pensions are secure and not long to go now.
Its now up to us, the middle of the career pilots to start to turn things around. To set an example, as our leaders are just marking time.
al446
The trots and pinkoes phrase is a straight lift from the Dear Bill letters in Private Eye, and the Dear Bill play.
The BBC and the Grauniad are left wing leaning. e.g. The stories in the media last year that some one who has either a Centrist or a Right wing view are just not hired by the BBC. If they are, they are made to feel very uncomfortable very quickly.
Whilst Iam not a fan of Murdoch's media world, if the Times were saying that what is going on, then it might gain more of an audience.
I'm not disagreeing with what the TUC are saying -- my two daughters are impacted, but to get a broader hearing, we need to get more media publicising the issues.
The trots and pinkoes phrase is a straight lift from the Dear Bill letters in Private Eye, and the Dear Bill play.
The BBC and the Grauniad are left wing leaning. e.g. The stories in the media last year that some one who has either a Centrist or a Right wing view are just not hired by the BBC. If they are, they are made to feel very uncomfortable very quickly.
Whilst Iam not a fan of Murdoch's media world, if the Times were saying that what is going on, then it might gain more of an audience.
I'm not disagreeing with what the TUC are saying -- my two daughters are impacted, but to get a broader hearing, we need to get more media publicising the issues.
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Whatever the media outlet is, one thing is constant between them all is they are a very powerful vehicle, and they love a good old aviation scare story.
BALPA and the current pilot community cant seem to put an end to PTF schemes, maybe its time for BALPA to put it in the public domain and let the Media and therefore travelling pubic to decide if these schemes are to continue.
While the airlines may be content to just having us pilots a little disgruntled (to be fair we will always find something to moan about), they will soon take notice if the two things that mean most to a buisness, reputation and profit, start taking a hit.
BALPA and the current pilot community cant seem to put an end to PTF schemes, maybe its time for BALPA to put it in the public domain and let the Media and therefore travelling pubic to decide if these schemes are to continue.
While the airlines may be content to just having us pilots a little disgruntled (to be fair we will always find something to moan about), they will soon take notice if the two things that mean most to a buisness, reputation and profit, start taking a hit.
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Well said SAS, however....
It must have started somewhere that with a CPL IR, you are *entitled* for a jet job with 200 hours TT.
I agree the low hour guys may have no choice...or do they?
Well, simply put, and not frustrated a bit, I started towing gliders in a flying club, then crop-spraying banana plantations in Africa, later fly a C402 and BN2 Islander, and so on... today on the 320, and when I look back, there is not one step of my aviation career I regret. I just felt I needed to wait for my turn to fly the big jets, and whatever experience I was gaining in the meantime was valuable, even if that wasn't the fancy jet people talked and dreamed about.
I know it's a bit off subject, but maybe the industry has a part to play in making the newbies believe that they should be flying a Boeing or Airbus right out of flying school.
It's also about greed for the title, position, and ego, that many have paid for flying the big birds. I don't think anyone can blame them for it, rather the companies offering that scheme that leads to such debacle.
My CPL Multi IR cost me less than 10000 USD, that was 15 years ago...in a charter company in Florida. I guess today it looks kinda indecent to pay so little... maybe the other myth building is that the more you pay for your training, the better you knowledge and skills...not mentioning the vultures in flying schools "promising" an interview with an airline...it all seems so easy, just swipe daddy's credit card here, and you career is on the way!
Reminder: not directed at those who pay for their training, rating, etc, but the pirates who make a living off people living their passion.
Flex
It must have started somewhere that with a CPL IR, you are *entitled* for a jet job with 200 hours TT.
I agree the low hour guys may have no choice...or do they?
Well, simply put, and not frustrated a bit, I started towing gliders in a flying club, then crop-spraying banana plantations in Africa, later fly a C402 and BN2 Islander, and so on... today on the 320, and when I look back, there is not one step of my aviation career I regret. I just felt I needed to wait for my turn to fly the big jets, and whatever experience I was gaining in the meantime was valuable, even if that wasn't the fancy jet people talked and dreamed about.
I know it's a bit off subject, but maybe the industry has a part to play in making the newbies believe that they should be flying a Boeing or Airbus right out of flying school.
It's also about greed for the title, position, and ego, that many have paid for flying the big birds. I don't think anyone can blame them for it, rather the companies offering that scheme that leads to such debacle.
My CPL Multi IR cost me less than 10000 USD, that was 15 years ago...in a charter company in Florida. I guess today it looks kinda indecent to pay so little... maybe the other myth building is that the more you pay for your training, the better you knowledge and skills...not mentioning the vultures in flying schools "promising" an interview with an airline...it all seems so easy, just swipe daddy's credit card here, and you career is on the way!
Reminder: not directed at those who pay for their training, rating, etc, but the pirates who make a living off people living their passion.
Flex
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When 99.9% of people get into flying, it is with the express purpose of flying a jet and earning good money.
No-one is going to turn down the opportunity to fly something sexy.
I agree completely that it isn't a sensible idea, but again where were the senior people when this started to happen. If we won't fight for our livelihoods, then surely as professionals we'll fight for safety, but again, no. It became the norm for people with 200hrs to be sitting in the right hand seat of a jet.
Again this isn't the fault of the low hour pilot. They were given the opportunity and took it. The problem is that we allowed the opportunity to exist.
The attitude of "I'm a management pilot on the A grade with my gold plated pension, why should I bother to help the newbies...." is what has caused the problem, not that some 19 year old who's family has remortgaged their house for them has taken a job to earn as much money as they can as quickly as they can.
All that these "vultures" are doing is filling a niche. They didn't create it. The airlines created the need, their pilots allowed them to do it and the circle of blame was complete.
No-one is going to turn down the opportunity to fly something sexy.
I agree completely that it isn't a sensible idea, but again where were the senior people when this started to happen. If we won't fight for our livelihoods, then surely as professionals we'll fight for safety, but again, no. It became the norm for people with 200hrs to be sitting in the right hand seat of a jet.
Again this isn't the fault of the low hour pilot. They were given the opportunity and took it. The problem is that we allowed the opportunity to exist.
The attitude of "I'm a management pilot on the A grade with my gold plated pension, why should I bother to help the newbies...." is what has caused the problem, not that some 19 year old who's family has remortgaged their house for them has taken a job to earn as much money as they can as quickly as they can.
All that these "vultures" are doing is filling a niche. They didn't create it. The airlines created the need, their pilots allowed them to do it and the circle of blame was complete.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 16th Mar 2010 at 22:23.
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pay to fly
Lets not forget that the various authorities have also allowed 200 hour pilots into the right seat. When they took away the commercial licence and replaced it with a "frozen ATPL " they sealed the deal for the masters of RyanAir and the likes....My frozen ATPL was gained in the sub Arctic flying to remote areas..
In Europe they never and still don't have the pleasure of flying around in smaller aircraft and learning the trade from the ground up. I have no problem training low time pilots on a jet aircraft as they have all passed the required exams and so forth. They do a job and should be compensated for it and have the self respect of their own worth. I knew when I started flying that I didn't have all the knowledge as that gained by an experienced Captain but I also knew that I had to work hard to get in the seat and therefore had a self worth to be paid.
Paying to fly is the same as nepotism and bribery and should be dealt with as such. People need to be hired on merit and dedication. Imagine a sloppy intern paying to operate on people or, to set it down a knotch, an alcoholic paying to get their drivers licence.
In Europe they never and still don't have the pleasure of flying around in smaller aircraft and learning the trade from the ground up. I have no problem training low time pilots on a jet aircraft as they have all passed the required exams and so forth. They do a job and should be compensated for it and have the self respect of their own worth. I knew when I started flying that I didn't have all the knowledge as that gained by an experienced Captain but I also knew that I had to work hard to get in the seat and therefore had a self worth to be paid.
Paying to fly is the same as nepotism and bribery and should be dealt with as such. People need to be hired on merit and dedication. Imagine a sloppy intern paying to operate on people or, to set it down a knotch, an alcoholic paying to get their drivers licence.
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S-a-S spot on
Perhaps we can follow the lead from the FAA/Congress ..they are now seriously talking about a minimum of 800 hours under 'rigorous conditions' for co pilots to be able to fly pax operations ..as a direct result from the Continental crash.
Or do we need a similar/even BIGGER accident in Europe to jolt the Caa/Balpa etc into action?
Or do we need a similar/even BIGGER accident in Europe to jolt the Caa/Balpa etc into action?
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The blight!
It's never gonna change people. The sooner everybody realises this the better. These threads go on and on, but at the end of the day of course an airline is going to take on somebody who is at almost zero cost to them. The value of a pilot these days is just about nil and will continue that way, so waiting for the 'good old days' to return is wasting time.
As long as there are people willing to pay whatever it costs, rather than go out into the world and fly your way into the airlines as most of us have done, then nothing will change.
Personally, i think these pay to fly people are
mad parting with good money to join this industry, use it for something else. There is nothing "sexy" about this business (bar a few dolly's) and an airplane is just that.....an airplane.
Give me my time again......please!
As long as there are people willing to pay whatever it costs, rather than go out into the world and fly your way into the airlines as most of us have done, then nothing will change.
Personally, i think these pay to fly people are
mad parting with good money to join this industry, use it for something else. There is nothing "sexy" about this business (bar a few dolly's) and an airplane is just that.....an airplane.Give me my time again......please!
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I am sure that 95% of the pilots wouldn't mind to spend over 5 years flying as sprayers, instructors, or whatever in small airplanes and then move to bigger ones before sitting on a Boeing or Airbus deck.
But such jobs are scarce. Available to, say, 15% of there?
Today, a new pilot knows that is Heaven or Hell. Top of the ladder, or on the ground, All or Nothing.
Laws have to be changed so that in the future no one pays for working and no one can be trained in airliners with pax unless he is a pilot on the roll of that airline, with the same rights and contract as any other.
Today's veteran pilots are more to blame than the wannabees. They let this happen. They didn't care. Many don't give a damn, still.
We have all fallen into the trap. Let's get out
But such jobs are scarce. Available to, say, 15% of there?
Today, a new pilot knows that is Heaven or Hell. Top of the ladder, or on the ground, All or Nothing.
Laws have to be changed so that in the future no one pays for working and no one can be trained in airliners with pax unless he is a pilot on the roll of that airline, with the same rights and contract as any other.
Today's veteran pilots are more to blame than the wannabees. They let this happen. They didn't care. Many don't give a damn, still.
We have all fallen into the trap. Let's get out
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Well said to both dustyprops and Microburst!! When I tell people about the ptf pilots that are flooding this industry they look totally horrified - so perhaps an intense media campaign would be the answer. It needs to be stopped for the sake of those who wish to remain in the industry and have the ability to earn a decent living - I suspect most are gut less and will do sweet fa though!!