easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now
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It's these desperado's who sign up for next to nothing who are undermining the industry. Not the happily (?) employed ones.
. In doing so they are only fuelling their own demise as the whole thing is self perpetuating
Only the happily
employed ones can change all that.
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C'mon EGSS4284,
You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?
You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?
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Orange Peel
You are perfectly correct and I am sick of posting that, within UK employment law, there are no powers for CC or BALPA to directly influence anything. It would be perfectly legal for EZY to offer a contract on min wage and any court in the country would recognise it as legal. The fool who takes it would have willingly enjoined in that contract. If EZY offered them direct then CC or BALPA may have some grounds to challenge but if offered through CTC they are not employed directly by EZY and the grief is with CTC, that is the stark reality.
The only way things can be influenced indirectly is behind the scenes therefore not much publicised, EZY recently made improvements, albeit small and long overdue ones, after discussions with BALPA, at least that is what I read on here.
The only way things can be influenced indirectly is behind the scenes therefore not much publicised, EZY recently made improvements, albeit small and long overdue ones, after discussions with BALPA, at least that is what I read on here.
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HSBC are losing patience of course with people constantly deferring and are putting pressure on some to declare bankruptcy so that the debt can be written off. At least a dozen or so have done just that and are only now finding out the true cost of having zero credit rating.
Non Provable debts can still be pursued by the creditor despite a bankruptcy order having been made and as for those whose parents have used property equity as assurance then those contemplating bankruptcy should consider that impact.
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Allot of pilots spent years gaining valuable experience before believing themselves ready for the flight deck of an airliner. During this time in the GA sector you generally always had terrible T&C's and a tiny wage packet to boot and most of the time no contract!
If these guys and girls who generally have no experience want to get straight to the RH seat then this is the price they pay. If a company went against a contract then by all means moan and get annoyed but if you agreed legally to have crappy conditions then get on with it and stop moaning.
You are a product of your own naivety.
If these guys and girls who generally have no experience want to get straight to the RH seat then this is the price they pay. If a company went against a contract then by all means moan and get annoyed but if you agreed legally to have crappy conditions then get on with it and stop moaning.
You are a product of your own naivety.
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Wildpilot has made a very valid point, yes I feel sorry for the new cadets, and it's a bad situation for the whole industry to be in, unfortunatelly they're a victim of their own product, a never ending supply of newly qualified pilots for the likes of easyjet to take advantage of!
I did nearly three years instructing so know what it's like to be skint, £1000 was a cracking month, £500 in the winter. Then 3 years on a Turboprop before joining easy.
And I'm sorry but if these guys cant pay their loans then they shouldn't have overstretched themselves in the first place, £100,000 loan is just f*****g ridiculous, a job at the end was never a complete guarantee.
Unfortunatelly the only way I can see the current situation change is if the banks stop lending for pilot training, a huge reduction of newcomers would push up the conditions for the remaining, Supply and Demand!!
I did nearly three years instructing so know what it's like to be skint, £1000 was a cracking month, £500 in the winter. Then 3 years on a Turboprop before joining easy.
And I'm sorry but if these guys cant pay their loans then they shouldn't have overstretched themselves in the first place, £100,000 loan is just f*****g ridiculous, a job at the end was never a complete guarantee.
Unfortunatelly the only way I can see the current situation change is if the banks stop lending for pilot training, a huge reduction of newcomers would push up the conditions for the remaining, Supply and Demand!!
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It beggars belief that that CTC was started by former Captains!!!
I was offered a place on the B737-400 with one of the first CTC schemes but after much advice from 'Old Sweats & Airline Vet's' I rejected the offer & opted for a permanent, fully paid job as an F/O on a turboprop for 2 years, then got a job on a B757 with a major charter airline without it costing me£16k.
A 'Sin'dick-ate of wealthy, well paid off 'retired' training Captains started a company to train the airline pilots of the future & place them on the 1st rung of the ladder leading to a bright future in the Airline world. 15 years later, they are shamelessly peddling the same bile & crap & many of their ex-Cadets are now saddled with even more debt & are hovering around the breadline & financial ruin.
CTC means 'Con! Total Con!'.
Don't fall for it!
BALPA SHOULD DO SOMETHING NOW!!!
I was offered a place on the B737-400 with one of the first CTC schemes but after much advice from 'Old Sweats & Airline Vet's' I rejected the offer & opted for a permanent, fully paid job as an F/O on a turboprop for 2 years, then got a job on a B757 with a major charter airline without it costing me£16k.
A 'Sin'dick-ate of wealthy, well paid off 'retired' training Captains started a company to train the airline pilots of the future & place them on the 1st rung of the ladder leading to a bright future in the Airline world. 15 years later, they are shamelessly peddling the same bile & crap & many of their ex-Cadets are now saddled with even more debt & are hovering around the breadline & financial ruin.
CTC means 'Con! Total Con!'.
Don't fall for it!
BALPA SHOULD DO SOMETHING NOW!!!
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favete linguis - please don't use emotive language to try to shock people when it's clear you know very little about how financing and debt works. Nobody has said, and as far as I'm aware, nobody believes that bankruptcy entirely rids them of their financial obligations. HSBC will not, forever, be entitled to the monies. However, most know, having taken appropriate financial advice, that the majority of the debt will be erased given that their future earnings without an airline job are going to be significantly less than what is required for some time.
The point people make is that this should have been considered before jumping in at the deep end but that is entirely a different point.
The problem is now that people are accepting these deals it is becoming increasingly harder to reject them as it is clear there will be no meaningful changes for some time. Indeed the contracts could get worse but I'm not at liberty to discuss that in any detail.
The underlying fear for CTC guys is/was twofold. 1) There is nothing else out there which will pay anywhere near to a decent salary so acceptance in the hope of doing enough hours to get by outweighs the option of rejection and the financial implications that brings with it. 2) It is abundantly clear that easyJet knew that any rejections could easily be made up by offering the other worse quoted deals to OAA graduates. I'm not going to criticise them although it's very clear their quoted line training hours will get them nowhere. easy management knew exactly how to play the situation and hit it for six, so to speak.
A couple of mute points
Half_Cuban the loans are, in the majority £60-65k not the £100k you quote unless of course you speak of the total repayable in which case accept my apologies.
Vexed you're preaching to an audience which, from the sounds of things, sit happily in their ivory tower. Talk is cheap unfortunately although I applaud you for thinking long term.
Wildpilot if CTC was still, pretty much, the guaranteed route into the RHS (you could argue it still is but at what cost) and you had been looking to begin training would you have ignored them and for what reasons? I am talking of brighter times with the then intact 100% full-time placement record.
Man flex it is true there are 2 choices. Most don't have the option of rejection as they have limited, if anything, to go back to. Easy to criticise but bear in mind again the proven track record that was intact.
Before anyone has a pop at me, and you're quite entitled to, I'm a CTC 'product'. I have other options available to me and I am all in favour of rejecting these. I also think that the 1 or 2 rejections that may crop up won't make any difference. I don't like talking about other options as it immediately sounds arrogant or perhaps critical of my colleagues. I am certainly no better than anyone else and I'll make that point strongly if I may.
I've gone through several periods of unrest with some involving industrial action. My opinion is that we all need to be stronger for BALPA to be effective. Previous unions I have been represented by have always covered trainees and I am amazed that BALPA haven't got a specific training category for some representation. On the other hand they don't charge for membership whilst training and have far fewer members so I can see why they don't.
My previous employment has been in a skilled industry that requires stability and longevity. Management, usually, encouraged this as they knew they needed to keep core skills. Perhaps the problem is that anyone occupying a front seat is ultimately replaceable? If you have the hours and the license nobody views you differently from one another. As such the core skills are never noticed and it may indeed take a, dare I say it, further few 'incidents' such as the Colgan crash to wake people up.
The public do not care. The majority want cheap flights to the med and can be spotted by their football shirts and projectile vomiting. Maybe that's a bit cynical.....
The point people make is that this should have been considered before jumping in at the deep end but that is entirely a different point.
The problem is now that people are accepting these deals it is becoming increasingly harder to reject them as it is clear there will be no meaningful changes for some time. Indeed the contracts could get worse but I'm not at liberty to discuss that in any detail.
The underlying fear for CTC guys is/was twofold. 1) There is nothing else out there which will pay anywhere near to a decent salary so acceptance in the hope of doing enough hours to get by outweighs the option of rejection and the financial implications that brings with it. 2) It is abundantly clear that easyJet knew that any rejections could easily be made up by offering the other worse quoted deals to OAA graduates. I'm not going to criticise them although it's very clear their quoted line training hours will get them nowhere. easy management knew exactly how to play the situation and hit it for six, so to speak.
A couple of mute points
Half_Cuban the loans are, in the majority £60-65k not the £100k you quote unless of course you speak of the total repayable in which case accept my apologies.
Vexed you're preaching to an audience which, from the sounds of things, sit happily in their ivory tower. Talk is cheap unfortunately although I applaud you for thinking long term.
Wildpilot if CTC was still, pretty much, the guaranteed route into the RHS (you could argue it still is but at what cost) and you had been looking to begin training would you have ignored them and for what reasons? I am talking of brighter times with the then intact 100% full-time placement record.
Man flex it is true there are 2 choices. Most don't have the option of rejection as they have limited, if anything, to go back to. Easy to criticise but bear in mind again the proven track record that was intact.
Before anyone has a pop at me, and you're quite entitled to, I'm a CTC 'product'. I have other options available to me and I am all in favour of rejecting these. I also think that the 1 or 2 rejections that may crop up won't make any difference. I don't like talking about other options as it immediately sounds arrogant or perhaps critical of my colleagues. I am certainly no better than anyone else and I'll make that point strongly if I may.
I've gone through several periods of unrest with some involving industrial action. My opinion is that we all need to be stronger for BALPA to be effective. Previous unions I have been represented by have always covered trainees and I am amazed that BALPA haven't got a specific training category for some representation. On the other hand they don't charge for membership whilst training and have far fewer members so I can see why they don't.
My previous employment has been in a skilled industry that requires stability and longevity. Management, usually, encouraged this as they knew they needed to keep core skills. Perhaps the problem is that anyone occupying a front seat is ultimately replaceable? If you have the hours and the license nobody views you differently from one another. As such the core skills are never noticed and it may indeed take a, dare I say it, further few 'incidents' such as the Colgan crash to wake people up.
The public do not care. The majority want cheap flights to the med and can be spotted by their football shirts and projectile vomiting. Maybe that's a bit cynical.....
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djfingerscrossed
To answer your question to me, I would have ignored them mainly due to the fact that I can see through the imagined glamour of the airlines and wanted to fly for a living. I left the UK and have travelled with my flying but not as an airline pilot but as a bush pilot and now a float pilot.
One day if the airlines become attractive to me and me to them I may have a go but to be honest right now I earn as much as the average first officer and enjoy what I do.
I feel little sympathy for these guys and girls who have over committed themselves as no one made them join a sausage factory flying school and sign a ridiculous contract that they must have been aware could go very wrong for them. Someone said earlier that they affect all people that wear gold bars in terms of pay and you are right but an can do little to change peoples minds and to make them see what they are getting into. So day to day I try to ignore the dulling down of the pilots profession from all sectors of aviation and enjoy my my own life.
Hope this makes sense, cheers
To answer your question to me, I would have ignored them mainly due to the fact that I can see through the imagined glamour of the airlines and wanted to fly for a living. I left the UK and have travelled with my flying but not as an airline pilot but as a bush pilot and now a float pilot.
One day if the airlines become attractive to me and me to them I may have a go but to be honest right now I earn as much as the average first officer and enjoy what I do.
I feel little sympathy for these guys and girls who have over committed themselves as no one made them join a sausage factory flying school and sign a ridiculous contract that they must have been aware could go very wrong for them. Someone said earlier that they affect all people that wear gold bars in terms of pay and you are right but an can do little to change peoples minds and to make them see what they are getting into. So day to day I try to ignore the dulling down of the pilots profession from all sectors of aviation and enjoy my my own life.
Hope this makes sense, cheers
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Its quite simple how the easy CC deals with this. As a recognised union within easyjet BALPA should be consulted regarding terms and conditions of all pilots employed by the company. These terms should be written down on agreed schedules, If Easyjet employ pilots on worse terms agreed by BALPA then this poses a threat to ALL pilot employees within easyjet. (this includes temp contracts , contractors etc). The CC should start by pointing out that agreements have been broken and ask the company to work within agreements, if they do not then the CC ramps up the pressure! This needs to be sorted quickly and attitudes within the company like "nobody is forcing them to sign" will greatly hurt your own terms in the future. Next time there is a meeting for increase in pay the CTC scheme will have become a benchmark and nothing will be forthcoming from the company. You make your bed ...you have to lay in it!
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Wildpilot - entirely fair enough. You certainly don't need to justify yourself to me I was just interested in what you would have done then.
favete - good for you. HSBC will say and do lots of things. Exactly how much is possible is easy to determine if you seek appropriate advice and are informed. To that end my earlier post is correct. They will give up and they can't pursue things indefinitely. (circumstances dependent obviously).
I'd never advocate bankruptcy anyway but most won't have an option if they refuse the easyJet contract.
favete - good for you. HSBC will say and do lots of things. Exactly how much is possible is easy to determine if you seek appropriate advice and are informed. To that end my earlier post is correct. They will give up and they can't pursue things indefinitely. (circumstances dependent obviously).
I'd never advocate bankruptcy anyway but most won't have an option if they refuse the easyJet contract.
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In these Nu Labour saturated days of over extended finances why is HSBC lending such large sums of money to these CTC cadets?
Haven't the banks learnt anything out of the credit crunch? or is the local HSBC loans manager making too much of a kickback (read Bonus) to care?
Seems very dodgy in this environment that lines of credit are extended so easily, even when Mum & Dad sign over the house as security. Some questions need to be asked of the CTC/bank relationship.
Haven't the banks learnt anything out of the credit crunch? or is the local HSBC loans manager making too much of a kickback (read Bonus) to care?
Seems very dodgy in this environment that lines of credit are extended so easily, even when Mum & Dad sign over the house as security. Some questions need to be asked of the CTC/bank relationship.
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You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?
If I was a BBC journalist in Helmand reporting on Op Mushtarak I would hope the watching public wouldn't expect me to provide alternative military attack, nation building masterplan and an exist strategy for UK forces after I delivered my report. Why should it be the case on here? Maybe its question would be better asked to the EZY CC than a PPRuNe thread starter.
I suppose the crux of this is dreams and reality. A fair majority of pilots would have pursued this career to fulfil a childhood dream. Sometimes romance and perception overrule reality, kudos and logic. As a result too many have been willing to sign on the dotted line but sacrifice long term T&C's. However how many people think of that on day one? I would argue it more like ....... "I got a job ...... yessssssss"
In the economic climate of the past 2 years, the slightest wiff of any flying job for a newly qualified pilot has generally had a caveat attached.
Apportion blame to the student, but how much exactly? The P2F umbrella has a number of contributors. The schools sell their tie-ins with airlines as a marketing tool to increase student numbers and some airlines will exploit the desire to fly. I would argue that the collusion between schools and airline followed by putting contracts such as this on the table is more to blame than a 13 month warrior who has been fed a fairytale in the current economic and recruitment climate.
However when recruitment dried up, redundancies happened and the pool of CPL/IR holders swelled there has been no change in strategy, marketing or responsibility of care offered.
If you were to go to the owners/founders/CP's of CTC, Oxford, Cabair, etc. and ask how and when they got into aviation 20-40 years ago. I'd then ask them to walk a mile in the shoes of their most recent applicant.
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bluepilot summed it up nicely.
That's how it should be dealt with. Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.
Pilots paid for by easyJet plc, either directly employed, via agencies, cadet schemes etc etc should enjoy the same rights to sick pay, pension contributions, be able to bid for bases when available, HAVE a fixed base to start with (!!!), be paid through a pay scale agreed to between Balpa and the company, that eventually lead to the same pay as "everyone else in the company. If its agreed to use seasonal/temporary pilots they should be used for a maximum of x months and make up a maximum of x % of the entire workforce (3-5% ?). If more crew is needed for longer time then agreed as "temporary" then the temporary crew has to be offered a full time contract on the standard T&Cs.
This has to be the goal and with the right leadership and clear communication I think is could be achieved.
That's how it should be dealt with. Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.
Pilots paid for by easyJet plc, either directly employed, via agencies, cadet schemes etc etc should enjoy the same rights to sick pay, pension contributions, be able to bid for bases when available, HAVE a fixed base to start with (!!!), be paid through a pay scale agreed to between Balpa and the company, that eventually lead to the same pay as "everyone else in the company. If its agreed to use seasonal/temporary pilots they should be used for a maximum of x months and make up a maximum of x % of the entire workforce (3-5% ?). If more crew is needed for longer time then agreed as "temporary" then the temporary crew has to be offered a full time contract on the standard T&Cs.
This has to be the goal and with the right leadership and clear communication I think is could be achieved.
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Further to my last post; the experience levels withn easyJet are now suffering and it is something the CAA are concerned about. Hence the invitation to "experienced" pilots made redundant from Thomas Cook, Thomson and BMI. Apparently easyJet require about eighty pilots to redraw the balance offering them the same pay-by-the hour contract but there hasn't been too many takers so far.
It's going to be an interesting summer at easyJet but in the meantime could the tide be turning?
It's going to be an interesting summer at easyJet but in the meantime could the tide be turning?
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Favete Linguis,
I saw your comments regarding "Bankruptcy", I think your friends at HSBC may be influenced by company policy rather than what the actual law is.
A creditor through the official reciever has 12 months from the date of Bankruptcy to make a claim on the debtors assets or future income. After the 12 months its finished and then its written off. In fact the Babk write it off against their TAX (Enterprise Act 2001 ?, if I'm right). What a lot of creditors do is wait and then send a menacing letter out through a debt collectors agency (usually owned by them). This is illegal !
There is another rule where if a debtor has "disappeared" they have 6 years to find them and then get their money. After the 6 year rule, they will try to get their money by using debt collectors but they have no legal right to collect the money.
All in all, after 12 months, its written off ( no matter what the bank/debt collectors letter may say). It just messes your credit rating for 6 years.
If anybody is reading this and getting such letters, inform your Official Receiver!
Hope thats cleared everything up
I saw your comments regarding "Bankruptcy", I think your friends at HSBC may be influenced by company policy rather than what the actual law is.
A creditor through the official reciever has 12 months from the date of Bankruptcy to make a claim on the debtors assets or future income. After the 12 months its finished and then its written off. In fact the Babk write it off against their TAX (Enterprise Act 2001 ?, if I'm right). What a lot of creditors do is wait and then send a menacing letter out through a debt collectors agency (usually owned by them). This is illegal !
There is another rule where if a debtor has "disappeared" they have 6 years to find them and then get their money. After the 6 year rule, they will try to get their money by using debt collectors but they have no legal right to collect the money.
All in all, after 12 months, its written off ( no matter what the bank/debt collectors letter may say). It just messes your credit rating for 6 years.
If anybody is reading this and getting such letters, inform your Official Receiver!
Hope thats cleared everything up
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When i was initially given my at risk letter from bmi I was scratching around applying for any flying job. Amongst other things I applied to CTC and PARC for this easyjet thing.
I was shocked by the t & c's but it was the only thing for a 'bus rated pilot in the UK. Parc were offering £67 per block hour, then it all went quiet from them and I was contacted by CTC who then offered £52 per block hour !!!!!
I decided I would rather walk over hot coals and eat from a camels arsehole - which is what I have decided to do - so I'm heading out to one of the middle east carriers. Something which I never wanted to do, but would rather do that than work for easyjet under these t and c's.
Funny old thing, I was recently re-contacted by PARC and CTC just to see if I was still interested in this - I graciously said thanks but no thanks ! looks like a lot of my colleagues from bmi would rather leave the UK than take this contract !!! I suspect the same is true of Thomson guys !!!!!
Thanks for the offer but I'm not sitting at home waiting for a call for the odd flight because somebody has phoned in sick and Stelios needs to get joe public down to Malaga for their holiday...........
I'D RATHER LEAVE THE UK THAN DO THIS
I was shocked by the t & c's but it was the only thing for a 'bus rated pilot in the UK. Parc were offering £67 per block hour, then it all went quiet from them and I was contacted by CTC who then offered £52 per block hour !!!!!
I decided I would rather walk over hot coals and eat from a camels arsehole - which is what I have decided to do - so I'm heading out to one of the middle east carriers. Something which I never wanted to do, but would rather do that than work for easyjet under these t and c's.
Funny old thing, I was recently re-contacted by PARC and CTC just to see if I was still interested in this - I graciously said thanks but no thanks ! looks like a lot of my colleagues from bmi would rather leave the UK than take this contract !!! I suspect the same is true of Thomson guys !!!!!
Thanks for the offer but I'm not sitting at home waiting for a call for the odd flight because somebody has phoned in sick and Stelios needs to get joe public down to Malaga for their holiday...........
I'D RATHER LEAVE THE UK THAN DO THIS