Ryanair SSTR
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Guys,
I hate to thread creep. But it may be wise to have a read of the easyjet/ctc slavery thread and consider the implications for yourselves further down the line.
Please, please do thoroughly research every aspect of the deal on offer from Ryanair. And bear in mind that three years ago the TR was £20000 with CAE or SAS.
How much is it now? And why such a heavy increase?
Ryaniar, easyjet etc have huge growth plans and firm aircraft orders. They NEED pilots to fill those seats, otherwise their plans are in tatters. If everyone refused to pay for the TR, those seats will still need to be filled.
It's worth thinking about.
I hate to thread creep. But it may be wise to have a read of the easyjet/ctc slavery thread and consider the implications for yourselves further down the line.
Please, please do thoroughly research every aspect of the deal on offer from Ryanair. And bear in mind that three years ago the TR was £20000 with CAE or SAS.
How much is it now? And why such a heavy increase?
Ryaniar, easyjet etc have huge growth plans and firm aircraft orders. They NEED pilots to fill those seats, otherwise their plans are in tatters. If everyone refused to pay for the TR, those seats will still need to be filled.
It's worth thinking about.
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I think the wishes of the person who posted this thread should be kept here. He/she asked a simple question, are Ryanair recruiting FO's at the moment? Simple answer: yes.
All this type rating talk etc is discuss elsewhere.
All this type rating talk etc is discuss elsewhere.
Educated Hillbilly
Afinehelmet,
Was the price of the rating always 30,000 Euros; hence when the Euro was 1.5/1.6 to then pound then the rating was then 20,000 pounds sterling. Now the pound is weak (nearly 1:1 pound to the Euro) then this makes the rating now 30,000 pounds. You can't blame a training provider for changes in exchange rate.
Was the price of the rating always 30,000 Euros; hence when the Euro was 1.5/1.6 to then pound then the rating was then 20,000 pounds sterling. Now the pound is weak (nearly 1:1 pound to the Euro) then this makes the rating now 30,000 pounds. You can't blame a training provider for changes in exchange rate.
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hey guys they are hiring i can say there was 8 captains assessed last week and 7 cadets.. i was there, be very careful captains.. the 2 captains i spoke to (who were from some very respectable airlines) in their sim check had take off birdstrike engine failure flight director failure auto pilot failure so what they got basically was single engine raw data approach with single engine go around.. neither of them were expecting it..
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Maverick
The reason there is little or no cadets in line training at the moment is that they only started up courses again before Christmas.
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Actually they are not recruiting First Officers. They are recruiting CADETS and Direct Entry Captains. What makes the company more money: a 0 hour cadet who needs to go through an integrated ATPL or a pilot who may have tons of hours of experience and doesn't need to go through the whole deal. If you have experience and some hours, there is no need to apply, because you are NOT A CADET, therefore you are not attractive to the accountant's balance sheet. Simple!
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Recruitment, Fast Track and Time to Command
The Line Training of cadets is ongoing, but in relatively small numbers; to the point where it may not be noticed. Course intake has been smaller, however TR courses continue at EMA/EMT and CAE AMS. I am told the volume is nothing compared to previous years (2007/2008 especially). OAA Stockholm is to be wound up as an FR TRTO.
There is still a shortage in Captains. DEC guys seem to be taking a frontline due to ongoing expansion and the internal command failure rate. I personally know guys scheduled for OCCs in March and April. Several guys from FlyGlobespan have also been in line training at the Prestwick base. I seem to fly with my fair share of skippers who have came from Futura, Sky Europe and Sterling. All who have joined in the last 6 to 12 months. All good guys with vast levels of experience. I'm unsure of the criteria for DEC however 737 (EFIS) PIC time is necessary.
As for FOs who may be looking to join the company with a view to an accelerated command, unfortunately that ship seems to have sailed. I put it down to 4 things.
1). More revenue earned through taking on a non-rated cadet.
2). It hasn't had the desired result previously (due to failure rates)
3). There is a steady supply of 737 rated skippers in the global market now
4). Internal command courses are still ongoing
When I joined I came onboard with two 'command ready' FOs from a UK and European Lo-Co. They are both skippers now. That route has seemingly dried up. Also remember that Command in Ryanair isn't an entitlement. If your training/checking record doesn't meet the grade or you have been brought to the attention of the 'wrong person' during your travels, then in the RHS you'll stay.
There is still a shortage in Captains. DEC guys seem to be taking a frontline due to ongoing expansion and the internal command failure rate. I personally know guys scheduled for OCCs in March and April. Several guys from FlyGlobespan have also been in line training at the Prestwick base. I seem to fly with my fair share of skippers who have came from Futura, Sky Europe and Sterling. All who have joined in the last 6 to 12 months. All good guys with vast levels of experience. I'm unsure of the criteria for DEC however 737 (EFIS) PIC time is necessary.
As for FOs who may be looking to join the company with a view to an accelerated command, unfortunately that ship seems to have sailed. I put it down to 4 things.
1). More revenue earned through taking on a non-rated cadet.
2). It hasn't had the desired result previously (due to failure rates)
3). There is a steady supply of 737 rated skippers in the global market now
4). Internal command courses are still ongoing
When I joined I came onboard with two 'command ready' FOs from a UK and European Lo-Co. They are both skippers now. That route has seemingly dried up. Also remember that Command in Ryanair isn't an entitlement. If your training/checking record doesn't meet the grade or you have been brought to the attention of the 'wrong person' during your travels, then in the RHS you'll stay.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 27th Jan 2010 at 13:45.
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I hear RYR are due for 54 a/c this year @ 5 crews per a/c = 270pilots. That's 270 captains required. Allowing for leavers, retirements and failures I'd guess about 330 command courses. Same next year. That means 600 F/O's will be needed for the new a/c and to replace the upgrades. You say they are closing OAA and the training is at a dribble. If this maths is correct it will require 50 pilots each month; not a dribble. If RYR are doing the upgrades and OCC's themselves, and they are closing OAA, then someone, CAE, is in for a bonanza, surely? Is it posisble these numbers can be produced? A full TQ to end of line training is 5 months, and OCC for an F/O to end line training could be as short as 1.5 months. Can RYR have the luxury of employing only cadets?
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Ryanair have had a luxury with their FOs for the past number of years - the luxury being it has too many of them! Crewing on that front presents no problems and has probably resulted in a 'slow down' of recruitment. I still expect that FR will always remain 'top heavy' with FOs because it remains a high source of revenue and by in large costs them little or nothing to have them on their books. The only issue may be that there is a gulf in experience being created across FOs. Plenty of those between 500 - 1000hrs, fewer betweeen 1000 and 2000hrs and even fewer between 2000 and 3000hrs plus. I was recently informed (not gospal) that the upgrade success rate lies around the 50% mark. If that's the case then there will be a number of FOs staying in the RHS until they can enter the upgrade process again. I believe the time from failure to re-entry has been extended as well.
The training department has decided that the majority of training will be internal. TRs are being conducted at East Mids and OCCs at Stansted (largely due to cost and standardisation). A few TRs, but nothing compared to previous years, are still conducted at CAE with Ryanair's own TRIs/SFIs. I would imagine Ryanair have had CAE 'over a barrel' on cost as they have had a number of issues with CAE over the past few years. OAA probably went out the window because they are no longer cost effective. I think the only training provider claiming 'bonanza status' at the moment is FR!!
Time can only tell whether the 'cadet only' recruitment policy will have its consequences. Its a cash generator first and foremost, and thats the underlying strategy. If the training department felt it was proving detremental to expansion plans then this would have been voiced to management. However it seems that the airline aren't having any real problems in picking up OCC candidates that will fill the holes created by its own upgrade process and retention rates (obviously at a very low net loss).
My guess is that they will continue with OCCs (because they can) and continue to recruit cadets (because they can). Time to command internally will take longer (due to FOs flying less hours per annum) and may eventually dry up. After all no deal has been done with Boeing and MOL has already spoken about running the airline for cash. The expansion bubble has to burst at some stage and shareholders will be looking to be paid dividends eventually.
The training department has decided that the majority of training will be internal. TRs are being conducted at East Mids and OCCs at Stansted (largely due to cost and standardisation). A few TRs, but nothing compared to previous years, are still conducted at CAE with Ryanair's own TRIs/SFIs. I would imagine Ryanair have had CAE 'over a barrel' on cost as they have had a number of issues with CAE over the past few years. OAA probably went out the window because they are no longer cost effective. I think the only training provider claiming 'bonanza status' at the moment is FR!!
Time can only tell whether the 'cadet only' recruitment policy will have its consequences. Its a cash generator first and foremost, and thats the underlying strategy. If the training department felt it was proving detremental to expansion plans then this would have been voiced to management. However it seems that the airline aren't having any real problems in picking up OCC candidates that will fill the holes created by its own upgrade process and retention rates (obviously at a very low net loss).
My guess is that they will continue with OCCs (because they can) and continue to recruit cadets (because they can). Time to command internally will take longer (due to FOs flying less hours per annum) and may eventually dry up. After all no deal has been done with Boeing and MOL has already spoken about running the airline for cash. The expansion bubble has to burst at some stage and shareholders will be looking to be paid dividends eventually.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 27th Jan 2010 at 14:47.
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DEC guys seem to be taking a frontline due to ongoing expansion and the internal command failure rate.
Does this tell us something about the quality of FO's who bought their RHS job?
If it is now true the crews per plane are closer to 5, it indicates a move away from making our pilots more productive, which means longer time to command, less annual pay and longer to build those hours to get that gold-plated legacy carrier career.
I hear RYR are due for 54 a/c this year @ 5 crews per a/c = 270pilots
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Ahh, smith. Haven't heard from you in ages! Glad to see you are still alive and acting as the 'voice of reason' when it comes to Ryanair. Good man.
Just to give you a little 'food for thought' on your 'those who bought a job therefore they must be crap' assumption/generalisation/belief. Firstly the 50% success rate isn't an accurate figure and it hasn't been published. What has been published is that first and foremost, the main reason why people fail their upgrade is because they don't prepare for it. Like any command course, the Ryanair course is both tough and intensive (sorry, this fact may not fit with what you may like to believe). I have several TRE and LTC colleagues who have commented that the most able FOs that they have come across have failed an upgrade. Not because of an inability to operate, largely because they were unprepared for what hit them. However in order to give a little consolation, I'm sure with over 2000 pilots the odd one fails the course due to ability levels.
Who do you know smithy? The guy down the flying club who says that if he were in the industry he wouldn't touch us? Your employer - who is that exactly anyway? Our guys and girls have regularly pissed off to the likes of BA, bmi, Virgin, Emirates, Etihad, Singapore and Cathay. I don't know many who won't hire Ryanair pilots? I'll give you KLM/Air France - however they don't do much external hiring anyway because thats their policy. Small potatoes though!
There will be a net gain in fleet because there is growth. You are right though, they can't sell aircraft at the moment.
Just to give you a little 'food for thought' on your 'those who bought a job therefore they must be crap' assumption/generalisation/belief. Firstly the 50% success rate isn't an accurate figure and it hasn't been published. What has been published is that first and foremost, the main reason why people fail their upgrade is because they don't prepare for it. Like any command course, the Ryanair course is both tough and intensive (sorry, this fact may not fit with what you may like to believe). I have several TRE and LTC colleagues who have commented that the most able FOs that they have come across have failed an upgrade. Not because of an inability to operate, largely because they were unprepared for what hit them. However in order to give a little consolation, I'm sure with over 2000 pilots the odd one fails the course due to ability levels.
I don't think many euro-carriers would touch an ex FR guy. I know a lot of pilots who hate FR pilots for what they have done to this industry.
54 aircraft will not be added to the total fleet number, the fleet number stays relatively constant, the new airframes replace "ageing" ones which used to be sold on to South American airlines as they approached their C checks, however that market seems to have dried up too.
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smith, The total fleet size has more than doubled in the last four years. in Jan 2006 there were less than 100, now there is 210. all this has taken place while older airframes have been disposed of.
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CallSign Kilo
Excellent accurate posts - you are up to date and spot on with the info:
F/O only sourced from cadet Type Rating Scheme, other OCC/Type Rated ended 2 years ago
F/O s now flying less hours than previous years, currently about 600 pa, down from the usual 880 pa, time to command is 5 years and increasing(hours required 2900)
Upgrade failure rate high, but don't know if this is better/worse than previous years, lots of disgruntled SFOs who tripped up doing the Upgade and waiting for another chance.
Rumours of changes to requirements for getting on an Upgrade course if you've failed one before or haven't got the grades in the sim.
Steady but small flow of DECs into the Company with more courses lined up for more DECs this year
Bases now up to 37 and rumours of a steady flow to follow
Rumours of new routes to non eurozone countries, a move away from the preferred shorter routes with 8 sectors a day, but where the demand currently is with the £/euro exchange rate.
Possibly an end to the growth plan and some sort of consolidation ahead, with a new boss maybe to lead us into a new era.
Shareholder payout of the cash pile as MOL says goodbye?
Excellent accurate posts - you are up to date and spot on with the info:
F/O only sourced from cadet Type Rating Scheme, other OCC/Type Rated ended 2 years ago
F/O s now flying less hours than previous years, currently about 600 pa, down from the usual 880 pa, time to command is 5 years and increasing(hours required 2900)
Upgrade failure rate high, but don't know if this is better/worse than previous years, lots of disgruntled SFOs who tripped up doing the Upgade and waiting for another chance.
Rumours of changes to requirements for getting on an Upgrade course if you've failed one before or haven't got the grades in the sim.
Steady but small flow of DECs into the Company with more courses lined up for more DECs this year
Bases now up to 37 and rumours of a steady flow to follow
Rumours of new routes to non eurozone countries, a move away from the preferred shorter routes with 8 sectors a day, but where the demand currently is with the £/euro exchange rate.
Possibly an end to the growth plan and some sort of consolidation ahead, with a new boss maybe to lead us into a new era.
Shareholder payout of the cash pile as MOL says goodbye?
currently about 600 pa, down from the usual 880 pa, time to command is 5 years and increasing(hours required 2900)
not true, been here 3 years plus now, always been 700-750 per year as an FO and this seems about the same across the board for an FO. I am one of the few on a RYR FO contract but doesent seem to make much difference hours wise.
not true, been here 3 years plus now, always been 700-750 per year as an FO and this seems about the same across the board for an FO. I am one of the few on a RYR FO contract but doesent seem to make much difference hours wise.
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Thanks EL Sidney, I think we are both reading from the same page.
I would however tend to concur with 'thebeast.' I believe the 600hrs pa for FOs is a bit low. 700-750pa seems to be the average at my base. Not to say that it isn't at others. I believe BRK is still touting 850hrs to new joiners. Surprise surprise
I would however tend to concur with 'thebeast.' I believe the 600hrs pa for FOs is a bit low. 700-750pa seems to be the average at my base. Not to say that it isn't at others. I believe BRK is still touting 850hrs to new joiners. Surprise surprise
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Smith
Not many euro carriers would touch ex FR guys?
You are in a dreamworld arn't you? What you think and what is actually true are often two completely different things. Your previous sentiment shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge in quite a spectacular light.
I know someone that joined BA from FR.
Imagine smith. BA
You are in a dreamworld arn't you? What you think and what is actually true are often two completely different things. Your previous sentiment shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge in quite a spectacular light.
I know someone that joined BA from FR.
Imagine smith. BA
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Pleased to hear that other bases are faring better than ours.
Brookfield F/Os avaraging 50 a month and RYR less than this.
Don't know of one F/O who will achieve anywhere near 750 this year.
Hours seem to be declining about 10% a year.
Captains doing better with 40 - 55 sectors a month according to Fuel League published.
Still getting floaters at the Base when lots of guys are at home doing 3 standys a week. I suppose they've got to eat too!
Brookfield F/Os avaraging 50 a month and RYR less than this.
Don't know of one F/O who will achieve anywhere near 750 this year.
Hours seem to be declining about 10% a year.
Captains doing better with 40 - 55 sectors a month according to Fuel League published.
Still getting floaters at the Base when lots of guys are at home doing 3 standys a week. I suppose they've got to eat too!