Pilot layoffs
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Pilot Layoffs
Hi everyone,
I need some help and hope You could have some ideas.
I work as a Captain for the national carrier and the group of 6 Captains on A319/320 were announced as technological surplus on that type and forced to sign a contract for Dash Q 400 for new bonding as the only alternative. The company decided to give them a sack if they do not sign a new contract even though they are pretty high on the seniority and should not even be taken as surplus. The criteria for the surplus were labour law as 50% and seniority as 50% taken from company. I just wanted to see if there were similar cases.
Taking the labour law and company making points for each criteria it seems if You were 45 years of age and came yesterday You are saved and being 11 years in the company with age 34 you are a looser.
If any of us got the first training as a PIC on Dash we would not say a word.
We still have a contract for PIC on A319/320 going on and the company has F/Os ready for the upgrade for Dash. We have offered to get the right hand seat qualification because we are getting new Airbuses in 2012 but they force us and this is unbearable. We have all been flying the Abus for 10 years.
We have seniority which says who came last goes first. The company hired new pilots but says we have to go if we do not sign.We are going to court but I guess I will end up on a street before.
My question is do You know how other company solved the problem if they had too many captains on one type, did they fire the F/Os and gave Right Seat qualification, or some other solution?
Also I need some good and bad practice examples naming Airlines following seniority during pilot layoffs?
Thanks to all of You helping
I need some help and hope You could have some ideas.
I work as a Captain for the national carrier and the group of 6 Captains on A319/320 were announced as technological surplus on that type and forced to sign a contract for Dash Q 400 for new bonding as the only alternative. The company decided to give them a sack if they do not sign a new contract even though they are pretty high on the seniority and should not even be taken as surplus. The criteria for the surplus were labour law as 50% and seniority as 50% taken from company. I just wanted to see if there were similar cases.
Taking the labour law and company making points for each criteria it seems if You were 45 years of age and came yesterday You are saved and being 11 years in the company with age 34 you are a looser.
If any of us got the first training as a PIC on Dash we would not say a word.
We still have a contract for PIC on A319/320 going on and the company has F/Os ready for the upgrade for Dash. We have offered to get the right hand seat qualification because we are getting new Airbuses in 2012 but they force us and this is unbearable. We have all been flying the Abus for 10 years.
We have seniority which says who came last goes first. The company hired new pilots but says we have to go if we do not sign.We are going to court but I guess I will end up on a street before.
My question is do You know how other company solved the problem if they had too many captains on one type, did they fire the F/Os and gave Right Seat qualification, or some other solution?
Also I need some good and bad practice examples naming Airlines following seniority during pilot layoffs?
Thanks to all of You helping
Last edited by flygirl319320; 8th Jan 2010 at 09:18.
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I take it that you are not a union. Perhaps you should consult with a qualified labour attorney, who is a citizen of the country where your airline is based. He/she should be knowledgeable of the labour laws as they apply to your situation. Good luck.
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Get organized. Consult your fellow airbus pilots; explain that the same thing could happen to them; ask them to support you by all calling in sick until the company corrects this outrageous employment policy. One interim solution might be for you to fly the equipment without a pay cut.
You all have to support each other, otherwise the company will walk all over you.
You all have to support each other, otherwise the company will walk all over you.
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One interim solution might be for you to fly the equipment without a pay cut.
Keep in mind however that it is normal company policy for junior Captains on one type to downgrade to the next lower type when reduction of flights is anticipated....and likewise move up again when normal flying resumes.
Croatia Airlines has a pilots' union and Flygirl319320 is a member of it. It also has a seniority list but it was cheerfully disregarded by both the company and the union, ever since first pilots from disintegrating JAT arrived in 1992. and started displacing ZagAl pilots. The arrangement worked fine while company was expanding, with those bypassed for promotion consuming their rights belatedly but taking the stance "Better late then never" and moving on. I have repeatedly warned that such an arrangement will end up in tears when the good times are over and culling of the pilot populations occurs, but I was always brushed away as a prophet of doom. It gives me no pleasure to say "I told you so".
The lawyer that pilots' union has retained is at least incompetent and possibly corrupt. That's subject to change, though. Even if he were legal eagle it would make no difference as judicial system in Croatia is in shambles. The judge that dismissed the charge of unfair dismissal, brought on against CTN by group of four CAs is already four months late with her explanation of the verdict and no one gets much excited about it as it is perfectly acceptable in Croatia to wait years for the verdict. Our colleague that was unfairly dismissed was returned to A320 RHS eight years after being fired and was awarded the damages. Both company and CEO paid fines for the contempt of court and no one cares. Makes interesting comparison with former Thai CEO, Wallop Bhukkanasut, who resigned over not paying for extra baggage on Tokyo-Bangkok flight.
As a member of the union's executive board, I did participate in giving advice to affected pilots that would be considered extremely scandalous in any country compliant with the second world standards or higher: "Accept the offer, move to Q400, you might win the damages in the court, but you'll spend ages jobless." I reasoned that standing up for the rule of the law in today's Croatia would be as efficient as protesting for Jews' rights in WW2 Nazi-puppet Independent state of Croatia.
Not the whole story. Eight captains were considered surplus. Two of them fled at first sign of trouble, one to Kazakhstan, the other to Albania. That left six captains that were lowest ranked on the seniority list with offer to join the regional fleet. They refused and four of them got the lawyers to write them an opinion that seniority is incompatible with Croatia's labour law and that additional rules apply. As it was IAW the company's policy to disregard the seniority, the MGT happily organized the makeshift committee that came up with four new names for downgrade to Dash, and Flygirl319320 was one of them. Again, lawyers were busy, writing that seniority is contract and disrespecting it would be breach of contract. However, average Croat's view on the contract breaching would make even Machiavelli blush so here we are.
There is a possible silver lining, though; the uncle-in-law of one of the affected 320 captains is running for the country's president on Sunday. If he succeeds, that might turn his nephew-in-law fortunes for better and therefore the whole group might be able to benefit. Having jefe politico in family never hurts in our beautiful homeland.
Whichever ugly way it turns, on Jan 12 my group of freshly minted Q400 capts & F/Os is giving a party at Fly bar. During it, yours truly, temporarily elevated to the status of whiskey priest, will serve the requiem for our company, as we know it. I promise I'll get drunk and spin a yarn about our beloved company that will be very colorful, illegal for anyone underage to hear and radically different from the official version. It will be as close to truth, as my alcohol soaked brain cells allow. We'll follow the words of the wise Dave Gahan: "Let's have a black celebration, to celebrate the fact that we've seen the back of another black day". PPRuNers passing through Zagreb are welcome, PM me to arrange the entry.
Clandestino
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The lawyer that pilots' union has retained is at least incompetent and possibly corrupt. That's subject to change, though. Even if he were legal eagle it would make no difference as judicial system in Croatia is in shambles. The judge that dismissed the charge of unfair dismissal, brought on against CTN by group of four CAs is already four months late with her explanation of the verdict and no one gets much excited about it as it is perfectly acceptable in Croatia to wait years for the verdict. Our colleague that was unfairly dismissed was returned to A320 RHS eight years after being fired and was awarded the damages. Both company and CEO paid fines for the contempt of court and no one cares. Makes interesting comparison with former Thai CEO, Wallop Bhukkanasut, who resigned over not paying for extra baggage on Tokyo-Bangkok flight.
As a member of the union's executive board, I did participate in giving advice to affected pilots that would be considered extremely scandalous in any country compliant with the second world standards or higher: "Accept the offer, move to Q400, you might win the damages in the court, but you'll spend ages jobless." I reasoned that standing up for the rule of the law in today's Croatia would be as efficient as protesting for Jews' rights in WW2 Nazi-puppet Independent state of Croatia.
Originally Posted by Flygirl319320
the group of 6 Captains on A319/320 were announced as technological surplus on that type and forced to sign a contract for Dash Q 400 for new bonding and less pay.
There is a possible silver lining, though; the uncle-in-law of one of the affected 320 captains is running for the country's president on Sunday. If he succeeds, that might turn his nephew-in-law fortunes for better and therefore the whole group might be able to benefit. Having jefe politico in family never hurts in our beautiful homeland.
Whichever ugly way it turns, on Jan 12 my group of freshly minted Q400 capts & F/Os is giving a party at Fly bar. During it, yours truly, temporarily elevated to the status of whiskey priest, will serve the requiem for our company, as we know it. I promise I'll get drunk and spin a yarn about our beloved company that will be very colorful, illegal for anyone underage to hear and radically different from the official version. It will be as close to truth, as my alcohol soaked brain cells allow. We'll follow the words of the wise Dave Gahan: "Let's have a black celebration, to celebrate the fact that we've seen the back of another black day". PPRuNers passing through Zagreb are welcome, PM me to arrange the entry.
Clandestino
The loud & foul mouthed one.
Last edited by Clandestino; 11th Jan 2010 at 13:24. Reason: Change of PPRuNe screenname
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You see the way this works is that your senority is on the aicraft you are flying. All they do is make your post redunded offer you another position and if you refuse you have in effect fired yourself. Just been through a similar situation
Excuse my level 4 English, I'll try to explain once again:
Flygirl319320 refused moving to Q400 because there were A320 captains below her on the seniority list that were allowed to stay on the bus. And no, it is not base issue either. CTN has only one base, ZAG.
Flygirl319320 refused moving to Q400 because there were A320 captains below her on the seniority list that were allowed to stay on the bus. And no, it is not base issue either. CTN has only one base, ZAG.
Last edited by Clandestino; 11th Jan 2010 at 09:11. Reason: Change of user name
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If there is a seniority list, is she not correct then when "refusing" to move to another fleet if there are pilots with lower seniority who are not moved to other fleet? I have no interest as such in this airline or issue, just asking.....
CP
CP
We have two different opinions on the matter from two different groups of lawyers:
a) seniority is incompatible with the current labour law, therefore seniority list is null and void.
b) seniority is contract and has to be honoured as such.
No point for guessing which one is preferred by the management.
What we have is the situation confirming the capt Keim's warning: "Pilots who defy the numbers might as well become hyenas!". Sadly, mr. Gann's masterpiece is not widely read around here.
a) seniority is incompatible with the current labour law, therefore seniority list is null and void.
b) seniority is contract and has to be honoured as such.
No point for guessing which one is preferred by the management.
What we have is the situation confirming the capt Keim's warning: "Pilots who defy the numbers might as well become hyenas!". Sadly, mr. Gann's masterpiece is not widely read around here.
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seniority in this case is stronger as a criteria for someone being protected with it and labour law is stronger for someone not being covered by the seniority. Said by the lawyers and checked in labour law.
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I just wanted to know what happens if some captain refuses such a thing in other companies? For F/Os we have a punishment being stopped from the upgrade till the whole group having criteria at the time, rotates for the left seat.
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My whole group refused because the presented criteria for choosing us by the company was not legal and we had F/Os ready for the upgrade and we could fly as a right hand seat. minimum loss for the company.
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QUOTE:
Keep in mind however that it is normal company policy for junior Captains on one type to downgrade to the next lower type when reduction of flights is anticipated....and likewise move up again when normal flying resumes.
We said we would, but the firm said they could not promise us to move back
Keep in mind however that it is normal company policy for junior Captains on one type to downgrade to the next lower type when reduction of flights is anticipated....and likewise move up again when normal flying resumes.
We said we would, but the firm said they could not promise us to move back
As I have written, we have two conflicting opinions on the matter. It is your lawyers vs. Fantastic Four's ones. Meanwhile company is preparing to make you and four of your fellow captains redundant. They know that they can do it with impunity, as it will take ages for your court case to reach the verdict - which might not necessarily be in your favour.
Ab33t has pretty much answered your question about practice in the most of the companies; if one fleet is downsizing, there are not enough volunteers for type switching, for lowest ranking on the seniority list it is either moving to other type or to other company.
The company cannot make promises on whether they'll ever return you to coveted A320 RH seat as the MGT is absolutely clueless about the company's short term future, let alone what we'll do next year. Airbus deliveries have been deferred by two years. No matter how the MGT is trying to present it, Julka will be parked for next season and I'm only hoping that the rest of the fleet doesn't get parked alongside her. Who knows, if it really gets bad, maybe your severance package will exceed my remuneration I'll get from the company till the day we go under.
A concept that is very difficult for people living in the normal world to understand. At CTN, when the upgrade is offered, one can't realistically deffer it as it might set one back for a couple of years, with all the financial consequences.
Good luck to you... and to all of us... we'll need it badly.
Ab33t has pretty much answered your question about practice in the most of the companies; if one fleet is downsizing, there are not enough volunteers for type switching, for lowest ranking on the seniority list it is either moving to other type or to other company.
The company cannot make promises on whether they'll ever return you to coveted A320 RH seat as the MGT is absolutely clueless about the company's short term future, let alone what we'll do next year. Airbus deliveries have been deferred by two years. No matter how the MGT is trying to present it, Julka will be parked for next season and I'm only hoping that the rest of the fleet doesn't get parked alongside her. Who knows, if it really gets bad, maybe your severance package will exceed my remuneration I'll get from the company till the day we go under.
For F/Os we have a punishment being stopped from the upgrade till the whole group having criteria at the time, rotates for the left seat.
Good luck to you... and to all of us... we'll need it badly.
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I just need how other companies solved the issue of too many captains on one type....Who was fired, who moved to the right seat, unpaid leave, any solution...bad or good???
