easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract
Join Date: Oct 2005
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If CTC really cared about their cadets and their integrity/reputation they would at least subsidise the cost of the TR, if not pay for it completely. I always thought this was the case, I didn't realise eJ use to pay them for each cadet at the end of their 6 months.
If i read this correctly, a cadet now pays £70k + for basic and intermediate training, even though CTC always implied the TR was included as well. £70k for 100 hours SE and 50 odd ME seems slightly ridiculous to me.
Someone has already stated, this is a safety issue, malnourished and worried pilots do not make for good CRM. Perhaps the CAA should be getting involved, suspend CTC from training until this is resolved, maybe that would make them sit up.
If i read this correctly, a cadet now pays £70k + for basic and intermediate training, even though CTC always implied the TR was included as well. £70k for 100 hours SE and 50 odd ME seems slightly ridiculous to me.
Someone has already stated, this is a safety issue, malnourished and worried pilots do not make for good CRM. Perhaps the CAA should be getting involved, suspend CTC from training until this is resolved, maybe that would make them sit up.
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apologies in advance for what is probably a lengthy pose, but just some observations from my experience, having come through a cadet type scheme some years ago.
what a sad state of affairs!!! but i hear people saying "well its the only sniff of a job we will get this coming year" .... true, but you have to take a long term view of this industry - the golden years are gone!!
until people wanting to get into the industry (wannabes) realise that there is no glamour, very little job security, early career pay is appalling whereas if you get a proper degree you can get into most other industries which have far more attractive T&C's, and most importantly, the burden of debt which you will have when you start your flying career will be crippling financially to you for atleast the next 5 - 10 years....until they realise this there will be an endless queue of people outside the door of CTC thinking they have found the backdoor into the promised land. but unfortunately the industry is on its knees, and thanks to the low cost operators who have made flying accessible to all, it is us, at the front of the aircraft who are having to give up T&C's to keep ticket prices low.
people might think, lets use EZY as a career step, get a TR and some hours and move onto a proper airline, the problem is by EZY starting this sort of a scheme others will follow, so there wont be many proper airlines left! what is stopping EZY from starting the same scheme again in 2011? why pay guys/gals an hourly rate in their 3rd year, when they can take on a bunch of new people who they wont have to pay much to for their first 2 years....what happens to the people who joined this year ?!?!?!? what extra burden to the trainers ?
unfortunately BALPA should have outlawed paying for your own TR years ago when the schemes first started and they should have a minimum salary table for each type of aircraft. look at train drivers, tube drivers, GP's etc they have very strong unions who effectively have their employers by the short and curlies...whats the result ... every year train fares increase ... unlike the fares in our industry !!! the result being the commuter pays for the drivers salary increase, whereas us at the front of the aircraft take a paycut to subsidise the punters down the back to go on even cheaper holidays ...what a bizarre world we live in !!!
my advice, become a lawyer, GP or even a train driver, more favourable student loan arrangements (theres a surprise) better T&Cs better job security!
what a sad state of affairs!!! but i hear people saying "well its the only sniff of a job we will get this coming year" .... true, but you have to take a long term view of this industry - the golden years are gone!!
until people wanting to get into the industry (wannabes) realise that there is no glamour, very little job security, early career pay is appalling whereas if you get a proper degree you can get into most other industries which have far more attractive T&C's, and most importantly, the burden of debt which you will have when you start your flying career will be crippling financially to you for atleast the next 5 - 10 years....until they realise this there will be an endless queue of people outside the door of CTC thinking they have found the backdoor into the promised land. but unfortunately the industry is on its knees, and thanks to the low cost operators who have made flying accessible to all, it is us, at the front of the aircraft who are having to give up T&C's to keep ticket prices low.
people might think, lets use EZY as a career step, get a TR and some hours and move onto a proper airline, the problem is by EZY starting this sort of a scheme others will follow, so there wont be many proper airlines left! what is stopping EZY from starting the same scheme again in 2011? why pay guys/gals an hourly rate in their 3rd year, when they can take on a bunch of new people who they wont have to pay much to for their first 2 years....what happens to the people who joined this year ?!?!?!? what extra burden to the trainers ?
unfortunately BALPA should have outlawed paying for your own TR years ago when the schemes first started and they should have a minimum salary table for each type of aircraft. look at train drivers, tube drivers, GP's etc they have very strong unions who effectively have their employers by the short and curlies...whats the result ... every year train fares increase ... unlike the fares in our industry !!! the result being the commuter pays for the drivers salary increase, whereas us at the front of the aircraft take a paycut to subsidise the punters down the back to go on even cheaper holidays ...what a bizarre world we live in !!!
my advice, become a lawyer, GP or even a train driver, more favourable student loan arrangements (theres a surprise) better T&Cs better job security!
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Norman
This pay for your training and maybe get a job has been around a long, long time.
Midland, another BALPA airline, were doing this on the quiet way back in the mid 90s when things were slack and they excess sim and training capacity: they sold lots of 737 TRs to youngsters with the vague and very loose carrot of "there is a job for you with a 737 TR".
Lots of youngsters shelled out for a 737 course only to find he 737 job wasn't with Midland!
Did keep the Midland sim busy though!
This pay for your training and maybe get a job has been around a long, long time.
Midland, another BALPA airline, were doing this on the quiet way back in the mid 90s when things were slack and they excess sim and training capacity: they sold lots of 737 TRs to youngsters with the vague and very loose carrot of "there is a job for you with a 737 TR".
Lots of youngsters shelled out for a 737 course only to find he 737 job wasn't with Midland!
Did keep the Midland sim busy though!
Join Date: Jul 2001
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All very interesting as discussions are as to whether or not you should have become a train driver or lawyer or indeed about what BALPA could have, should have or did not do in the past, they are completely irrelevant to the current situation. What matters is what we are going to do now. I understand that there is a lot going on behind the scenes between BALPA and the company as we speak. I wait with interest to see what appears.
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Remember going to CTC in the early days to do some stuff for my Easy command course and talking to guys with about 100hrs tt who were telling me about their s.a. etc!Sad part is not BALPA but the fact this was set up by pilots(ex Brittania) who ,having had a full career ,never having paid a bean for their flying and with big index linked pensions decided to screw the next generation....nice.We are as a profession our own worst enemies ,just hope they dont teach their wonderful fuel policy.
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All very interesting as discussions are as to whether or not you should have become a train driver or lawyer or indeed about what BALPA could have, should have or did not do in the past, they are completely irrelevant to the current situation. What matters is what we are going to do now.
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I have reticent up to now to go for strike action -
In the last few days, I have significantly hardened my position
There are many legalities to be resolved here and this will not be easy
Why can you not demand that easy suspend the relationship with CTC immediately, along with any pay-to-fly schemes, sub-contracts, etc, or strike action will follow? They will not cave in to a barrage of hot air NSF.
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Someone has to pay for offering a return at 5 incl tax...
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...mps-happy.html
That s all crap... You are right saying that pay to fly is the cancer of aviation. It s unfortunately too late now.
Worst Wishes for the low cost.
That s all crap... You are right saying that pay to fly is the cancer of aviation. It s unfortunately too late now.
Worst Wishes for the low cost.
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Norman,
Glad you heeded my advice of last week, unfortunately this "scheme" is all part and parcel of a wider economic plan on a far grander scale.
Credit/ buy your own job/buy your own house/ sell your granny . . . it is the easiest way for govts to control the masses.
Keep everyone in debt, on a short term contract, paid only when/if they work, a governmental dream. Everyone so sh1t scared they won't say Booh!
This fantastic "scheme" is just a reflection of the cancer that is eating every industry in every country.
We are all slowly but surely becoming psuedo-chinese, no rights no opinions, shut up and work or die on the streets.
That is where the wonderful state of Europe is headed, and it ain't accidental.
We can fight our own little battle here, but the big picture is the same all around us.
Vive le revolution ! it's about time.
Glad you heeded my advice of last week, unfortunately this "scheme" is all part and parcel of a wider economic plan on a far grander scale.
Credit/ buy your own job/buy your own house/ sell your granny . . . it is the easiest way for govts to control the masses.
Keep everyone in debt, on a short term contract, paid only when/if they work, a governmental dream. Everyone so sh1t scared they won't say Booh!
This fantastic "scheme" is just a reflection of the cancer that is eating every industry in every country.
We are all slowly but surely becoming psuedo-chinese, no rights no opinions, shut up and work or die on the streets.
That is where the wonderful state of Europe is headed, and it ain't accidental.
We can fight our own little battle here, but the big picture is the same all around us.
Vive le revolution ! it's about time.
There are a lot of very, very brave words being thrown around here but I can predict from my past experience that words are all that will be thrown around.
I will be astonished if anything material is actually done and I can also just about bet a year's salary that BALPA will achieve anything more than the square root of FA. Why should they? There is nothing in it for them.
I will be astonished if anything material is actually done and I can also just about bet a year's salary that BALPA will achieve anything more than the square root of FA. Why should they? There is nothing in it for them.
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Just so easy isn“t it? to come in here and spout the cynical view. Nothing will ever happen, bla bla bla look at me I am so clever, so cynical.... Guess what? the conditions that we all enjoy where fought hard by those before us, 30 years ago we also had people that stood to the side making wisecracks, excuses for themselves. They where ignored.
I am now willing to fight all the way not to have our pilots sleeping in their cars at the airport, turning up to work exausted and worried only to fly 65tons of metal fuel and people into a hill. You are too busy admiring your navel? just get out of the way so others can get on with doing the dirty work for you.
I am now willing to fight all the way not to have our pilots sleeping in their cars at the airport, turning up to work exausted and worried only to fly 65tons of metal fuel and people into a hill. You are too busy admiring your navel? just get out of the way so others can get on with doing the dirty work for you.
trss and leo/mol are using these forums bashing balpa so as to discourage the pilots in ruinair from joining a union.
This is leo's biggest fear and he does whatever he can, like threaten with base closures,bashing balpa on these forums, etc to prevent a union from materializing in his company.
The other one is just his servant echoing his master at every opportunity, hoping for a crum to be thrown at him.
This is leo's biggest fear and he does whatever he can, like threaten with base closures,bashing balpa on these forums, etc to prevent a union from materializing in his company.
The other one is just his servant echoing his master at every opportunity, hoping for a crum to be thrown at him.
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I think Double the Drift has hit the nail on the head. From the perspective of a CTC hold pool swimmer, of course.
And assuming that it's all correct, too. I haven't heard anything from CTC about it - no surprise there.
Who was it that said those we criticise are only what we would be under similar circumstances? So the question is how to change the circumstances... not sure I know the answer to that one either.
And assuming that it's all correct, too. I haven't heard anything from CTC about it - no surprise there.
Who was it that said those we criticise are only what we would be under similar circumstances? So the question is how to change the circumstances... not sure I know the answer to that one either.
"cadets, sorry you got suckered into the whole debt thing but now if you don't mind please turn down that lifeline job offer that will suck you dry but will, after a few years, leave you qualified and able to get on with your career."
As a cadet in the hold pool I agree with that statement. To us it seems its either take what you can get with the possibility of it leading onto more, or turn down the opportunity and have it given to the next one in line. A rock and a hard place I believe is the phrase!
As a cadet in the hold pool I agree with that statement. To us it seems its either take what you can get with the possibility of it leading onto more, or turn down the opportunity and have it given to the next one in line. A rock and a hard place I believe is the phrase!
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If you don't like the conditions then quit....quit flying. Conditions are only going to get worse. Balpa isn't going to do crap. You are preaching to the choir when you say conditions are terrible. OK, what's new?
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If you don't like the conditions then quit....quit flying.
And the whole you deserve what you get I did my time in a 152 attitude helps nobody. There are plenty of cadets at CTC who would have gone the long route (me included) but at the time of joining CTC the opportunity was there to get it all done quicker and easier so we took it - saying we deserve what we get will help nobody and is completely undeserved.
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That seems to be the underlining idea lpokijuhyt.
CTC will get a reduced Holding pool through accelerated "natural wastage" which is desirable going forward.
The Cost & productivity savings at EZJ LN are obvious.
CTC will get a reduced Holding pool through accelerated "natural wastage" which is desirable going forward.
The Cost & productivity savings at EZJ LN are obvious.
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All this while they have a TRSS pool full of experienced TP skippers. A mate of mine has been swimming for 18 months, and knows full well he won't end up in an orange airbus anytime soon, unless he bends over and thinks of England. And at wages like these no experienced person would go near them. Flight Safety case anyone?
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I agree something needs to be done! Maybe a ban on short term contracts would help? I back NSF and wish him luck I hope something is achieved! But its interesting that the BA cabin crew are been slated with vitrol on this forum for doing exactly the same thing and standing up for there T&Cs! Its a strange industry and unless things change soon I think a career change driving a coach for National Express will be the more attractive option!
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At the beginning of 2008 I was on a TR course for an airline along side of a number of CTC cadets. On asking them how big their loans were at this stage (so this will be real costs of the course including there own spending money) they all had £100K+. This excludes any type rating. So under this new contract, this will be an obscene investment.
I really would like to know if cadets are being forced into it.
If they all stood up united and said no then surely CTC and EJ should try and offer an improvement to the current proposed contract.
But I would suspect that some cadets will accept it while others rejected it to try and get ahead of the game, not realising in that selfish mindset that they are guilty in ruining it for everybody.
mint
I really would like to know if cadets are being forced into it.
If they all stood up united and said no then surely CTC and EJ should try and offer an improvement to the current proposed contract.
But I would suspect that some cadets will accept it while others rejected it to try and get ahead of the game, not realising in that selfish mindset that they are guilty in ruining it for everybody.
mint