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Last example Avantair......are companies in US out of their freaking minds?!

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Last example Avantair......are companies in US out of their freaking minds?!

Old 8th Nov 2009, 00:30
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@le
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Last example Avantair......are companies in US out of their freaking minds?!

I would just like to have a feedback from the community.
It is outrageous that companies now, mostly in the US, are asking for unseen minimums paying peanuts. Examples: according to Avantair a competitive F.O. will have 5000hrs TT, 1500Multi,500 Turbine...........and they would pay him 35K a year!!!!...........Amerijet at the Miami Pilot Job Fair was asking for 6000-8000hrs TT, 2000 on mid/heavy jets!!!........
I know the aviation job market is not at its best, but slavery was abolished decades ago. We deserve better...
I needed to write this down to get it out of my system….ARGH!!!
I wish the best to all of us………@le
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Old 10th Nov 2009, 15:36
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not really unusual; competitive mins always go through the roof during the down cycles.

Avantair is a fairly decent company, from what my friends there tell me. They used to start righties @ 25K, so that's a +10/year. And it is still higher than any regional.
Don't forget to factor in the schedule, either.
Usually, in the US, first year pay sux, then goes up quite a bit in the second year, and so on.
I wouldn't necessarily include Amerijet in the above! But I think they just (finally) got a new contract, so maybe things will improve there as well, other than the honey bucket situation.
Not sure about regionals, they're a different ballgame, although they're trying to change those game rules as well.
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Old 11th Nov 2009, 11:51
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With over 9,000 professional and qualified pilots in the U.S currently furloughed, are you the least bit surprised?

Still pays better then any regional first year, even though 35k a year is still garbage! (so what does that make regional pay?)

You can make more working Home Depot on a forklift..
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Old 11th Nov 2009, 12:26
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Angry We Are Prostitutes

You see @le, here lies the problem: you quite correctly point out the slave labor conditions being offered in the pilot job market right now; a situation that is devastating our industry on a world wide scale, that has been noted by the FAA as causing flight safety issues, & what do you get? Justification of slavery by fellow pilots! After the last 'down turn' did our salaries pick up to the levels where they were previous to the 'down turn?' Did they hell.

In England in 1996 the pay of an airline captain was equivalent to that of a doctor (GP) it is now approximately 30% less & forecast to fall still further. The reason being that our beloved employers are riding right through us & far too many of our colleagues continue to justify this erosion. It's a dog eat dog profession & until we stand together (which I don't believe that pilots ever will) we'll continue to suffer ever deteriorating Ts & Cs
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Old 13th Nov 2009, 10:19
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well said, X-Centric!

WE are the ones that have raped and pillaged this industry.
Why? Because there's always someone (of us) that'll do it for less!!

That new Michael Moore movie, where he "tackles" regional pilot pay, and how outrageously low it is......has he really researched all of the reasons, as to why it is as low as it is?
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Old 14th Nov 2009, 23:08
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X-C

In England I could get an appointment to see a GP in 1996 and Pilot jobs were fewer then.

13 years later, with a massive expansion in the airline industry, I can fly to almost anywhere in Europe, at so called low cost, while waiting two weeks to see the GP....

Crazy World, I guess, it is where youngters chose to invest time and borrowed / Parents money against where the want to be in 15 years time.

Too many Pilots coming through the ranks, not enough Doctors.
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Old 15th Nov 2009, 05:14
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Unhappy

I hear ya boredcounter. However, the GPs in the UK all stuck together in the late nineties & under the Blair government, quite rightly, had significant improvements to their pay & working conditions. As you say there are now far more aircraft flying today than 'back in the day' so you would think that following the normal rules of supply & demand there would be a need for more pilots to fly the planes & hence our value should increase & not decrease. But it hasn't; & why? There are many reasons but IMHO the main one is that we are simply prepared to prostitute ourselves for a job. You are correct that we may be oversubscribed: still to the outside world a pilot's job may appear glamorous & therefore there are always those who want to get in on the gig, but then so is a doctor's or lawyer's job perceived to be high flying. I don't see their Ts & Cs declining as alarmingly as ours.

I used to work at Ryanair, based at Stansted, & we all know how often that airline's malpractices appear on this website but there is one thing that always strikes me: the biggest whingers, moaners & whiners, who today still put up with those conditions, are the very pilots that I used to fly with who happily ran along to pay MOL to fly his planes then happily accepted garbage conditions. They, & many like them, devalued the job. What did, or do, the unions do? Absolutely nothing apart from protect the top 10% of the pilot workforce on both sides of the Atlantic & turn a complete blind eye to this devaluation. What do the authorities do to maintain such basics as rest & safety? Nothing when those factors compete with commercial pressures (read profits). I honestly believe that the only reason the FAA has now started to make noises about these issues is because of the stand that Captain Sully has taken & Michael Moore's movie, & I'm serious: the publicity has shamed them into at least squawking

So when I see fellow aviators justifying the degradation of our lifestyles it just angers me as they are the core reason that we are on a slippery slope down. I honestly don't believe that people should go straight from college to a pilot's career: we should all be forced to work in business first & then we might all be able to get a grip on the declining situation

Last edited by X-Centric; 15th Nov 2009 at 06:34.
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Old 15th Nov 2009, 07:50
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After all the slagging off of Michael Moore ( in Jet Blast), apparently some people think he may have a point with regard to pay for pilots.
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Old 15th Nov 2009, 15:57
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Thumbs down

Of course he has a point with regard to pilot pay.

Avantair is a fairly decent company, from what my friends there tell me. They used to start righties @ 25K, so that's a +10/year. And it is still higher than any regional.
With salaries as low as this with regional carriers is it any wonder that safety is becoming an issue, as B767PL states: you get better salary working at Home Depot driving round in a fork lift truck. What kind of standard is entering the pilot market right now is one argument but when Avantair are looking for 5,000 hours & some others between 6,000 - 8,000 hours for mid size jet jobs & pay this low salary; who is applying? They are totally exploiting the current job market & with these kind of salaries on offer who are we attracting? Not the standard of intelligence/qualification that I would trust my family with, that's for sure!
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 08:53
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A couple of years ago, I was discussing pilots' loyalty to the airline with a top management person. He was winging on about pilots who kept leaving to greener pastures and that cost them fortunes to hire more people and train them. Also he said there was no corporate culture. You can imagine he was not at British Airways...

If only he stopped paying his pilots peanuts, they would not feel shafted and used as commodities. Pilots simply react the very same way as they're being treated : they use airlines as stepping stones to better T&Cs. Airlines ([email protected] ones) believe they make money from that but they're only wasting money. The only moment they're making some money from such policies is during crisis periods such as the one we're witnessing at the moment because for several months, people have no choice. But then when business kicks back in, you have people whose only thoughts are "let's get our of this rat trap as quickly as we can". Good airlines pay more but they spend so much less on hiring and training processes. And that does not include the hidden side of the system : paying poor money leaves you with low-experience people. And that again has a cost in terms of safety. You HAVE to be able to keep a reasonable buffer of experienced, corporate-cultured people in order to keep the ship sailing safely.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 10:18
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I know the aviation job market is not at its best, but slavery was abolished decades ago. We deserve better...
It's not slavery if you CHOOSE to do it.

You can't blame airlines for reducing their costs, all they see is hundreds of eager pilots who are prepared to work for nothing, or even pay for the privilege. Now who is the idiot in that scenario? The companies who minimise their losses, or the pilots who get the gig by being prepared to work for nothing and then whinge and moan about their fate?

Grow up. You made the choice, now live with it.

Oh, and by the way... you don't "deserve" anything. What makes you think that you are automatically entitled to a luxurious lifestyle, just because you happen to have a pilot's licence?

If some of you had any balls at all, you would state your price and if you couldn't get it, you would do something else until the market changes. But the chances of finding a collective spine in the modern pilot workforce are pretty much non-existent...

I just thought I would get that in before 411A discovers this thread...
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 12:05
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I have to agree with you. I've been retired (actually, took a reasonable redundancy package) for a few years now. I first started flying professionally in 1975 and you know what? T & C's have (in real terms) steadily eroded since then. Pilots have rarely, if ever, stood together and it's not going to start now. Some people always were ready to fly for next to nothing and there always was the odd person who would pay for a type rating. This tendency has grown over the years until now paying for a type rating (and even experience on type) is the norm and in many cases is the only way to secure a job. It's no good telling people who have fallen in love with flying that they should abandon their dream because it has a detrimental effect on the rest of the pilot 'community'.
I'm afraid that as airlines are run by 'bean counters' with little understanding of the job, they will regard the new generation of aircraft as easy to fly and so there is no need for any 'stick & rudder' skills, which are an expensive commodity. T & Cs will improve with the economic cycle, but in the meantime people might to well to remember that you're 'worth' what somebody will pay you NOT what you think you ought to be paid.
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