Flybe to buy BMI?
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: England
I did hear a rumour (note: rumour), that should flybe acquire baby and/or regional they wouldn't want the pilots or airframes.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Heathrow
It certainly would be a mammoth undertaking for Flybe if it were true... Even integrating Regional and Baby would be difficult enough let alone mainline! When I first heard about this, I assumed people were just talking about Regional (as that made more sense) but seemingly not, French wants pretty much the whole lot...
I'm sure Flybe will want to pour over the figures and perhaps come up with some kind of deal with Lufthansa, much like they did with BA during the merger with BAcon. bmi is heavily loss making and would be a huge financial burden to whoever take it on, its a risk that Lufthansa no longer wants and one that others should be wary about because to turn a company who still makes hundreds of millions of pounds loss with a billion pound turnover isn't going to change overnight.
What ever happens, it would radically change Flybe from what it is now... Especially as Jim French is even said to be interested in 'parts of the Heathrow operation'. I'd be very interested to hear what Flybe have in mind for it, because if it were to happen, it sure as hell wouldn't be staying in its current form!
ATW Daily News
I'm sure Flybe will want to pour over the figures and perhaps come up with some kind of deal with Lufthansa, much like they did with BA during the merger with BAcon. bmi is heavily loss making and would be a huge financial burden to whoever take it on, its a risk that Lufthansa no longer wants and one that others should be wary about because to turn a company who still makes hundreds of millions of pounds loss with a billion pound turnover isn't going to change overnight.
What ever happens, it would radically change Flybe from what it is now... Especially as Jim French is even said to be interested in 'parts of the Heathrow operation'. I'd be very interested to hear what Flybe have in mind for it, because if it were to happen, it sure as hell wouldn't be staying in its current form!
ATW Daily News
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Dublin
LIFO is no longer acceptable as a chopping tool, against EU law, but if any airline took over BMI there would have to be staff and cost reductions, stands to reason that if the business model worked in the current format it would be profitable now, enough said! As for seniority lists, these usually go out of the window, harsh times, tough decisions are the privilege of the bean counters and faceless fat cats whom patrol the corridors of power.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 654
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From: Dublin
The Rolls Royce case and unite, conclusion was that LIFO is a legitimate criteria..unless..It is used as the sole source of decision, then it is not legal as it potentially breaks EU age discrimination laws.. In other word the company would have to have LIFO plus a range of measuring tools, performance, attendance records, and in the case of pilots, sim and line check results could be used.
"It was found that whilst the use of the length of service criteria is potentially indirectly discriminatory against younger workers, so long as it is Not the sole criteria used and that it is used as a means of a legitimate aim – which in this case was to reward worker’s loyalty and desire to achieve a stable workforce – it could be objectively justified".
What this means in real terms is a guy with two years in the company but above average performance and no sickness could bump off a 20 yr average guy with average sickness.. having said that, which one would you keep as a bean counter.. the lower cost sharper guy or the jurasic plodder..I,m not saying either way is fair and equitable, but its the law.
By the way, BALPA, already know this, but if you are contributing 1 percent of 140K you are more value to them than the 1 percent of 40K,, loyalty is pocket deep.
"It was found that whilst the use of the length of service criteria is potentially indirectly discriminatory against younger workers, so long as it is Not the sole criteria used and that it is used as a means of a legitimate aim – which in this case was to reward worker’s loyalty and desire to achieve a stable workforce – it could be objectively justified".
What this means in real terms is a guy with two years in the company but above average performance and no sickness could bump off a 20 yr average guy with average sickness.. having said that, which one would you keep as a bean counter.. the lower cost sharper guy or the jurasic plodder..I,m not saying either way is fair and equitable, but its the law.
By the way, BALPA, already know this, but if you are contributing 1 percent of 140K you are more value to them than the 1 percent of 40K,, loyalty is pocket deep.
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Amity Island
As a former FO at flybe it has always impressed me how far the company had come from such humble roots - a couple of twin otters farting about down in the Channel Islands (and lets face it in quite a short period of time too). Given its morphing into what it has become today is it inconceivable that it might venture into longer haul operations.
True such a venture would involve a good dollop of trouble and strife on all levels (crewing, finances etc etc etc) - but as somebody who bore witness to the BACON takeover and its aftermath I can say that things simmer down, disgruntled people move on and in time stability (or what counts as stability in the aviation game) returns.
Just my thoughts, please feel free to rip them to shreds.........
True such a venture would involve a good dollop of trouble and strife on all levels (crewing, finances etc etc etc) - but as somebody who bore witness to the BACON takeover and its aftermath I can say that things simmer down, disgruntled people move on and in time stability (or what counts as stability in the aviation game) returns.
Just my thoughts, please feel free to rip them to shreds.........
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: uk
shlittlenellie
LIFO is NOT allowed to be the only,sole deciding factor in making redundancies anymore.
Virgin and BALPA recently worked out a scheme that included seniority as the MAIN factor (read as date of joining), but it also included "qualifications" (i.e. Company TRE/LTC etc - which no junior FO was of course) and also allowed for live disciplinaries to be taken into account.
So, BALPA can tell you what they like, but seniority has just had a Horse and Cart driven through it at Virgin and it'll be the same elsewhere. Believe me.
Virgin and BALPA recently worked out a scheme that included seniority as the MAIN factor (read as date of joining), but it also included "qualifications" (i.e. Company TRE/LTC etc - which no junior FO was of course) and also allowed for live disciplinaries to be taken into account.
So, BALPA can tell you what they like, but seniority has just had a Horse and Cart driven through it at Virgin and it'll be the same elsewhere. Believe me.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: west
LIFO is NOT allowed to be the only,sole deciding factor in making redundancies anymore
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 256
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From: UK FIR
I have heard from a well placed source that FlyBE have done a deal to buy bmi. I am not sure if they are buying everything or gutting and filleting the organisation to take the best bits. The A330s will be returned to the leasing companies at the end of this year.
Apparently the deal was agreed last night.
Apparently the deal was agreed last night.
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Ask OPS!
If it has, or were to happen, which I currently sprinkle with a healthy dose of scepticism, then how would the pay scales be resolved with such a gap between the BMI pay scales and the Flybe Jet scales?
Top end for a Captain, using slightly rusty figures, shows a £40,000 difference.
That's going to be painful for anybody although I suppose the difference between the two scales and no pay is even bigger!
Good luck to all at BMI, it must be an awful time for you all and I hope it gets resolved amicably and without too much pain!
Top end for a Captain, using slightly rusty figures, shows a £40,000 difference.
That's going to be painful for anybody although I suppose the difference between the two scales and no pay is even bigger!
Good luck to all at BMI, it must be an awful time for you all and I hope it gets resolved amicably and without too much pain!
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Funny that G-AWZK, I'd heard that too. Insider knowledge is a powerful thing 
I'm pretty sure that Jim is only interested in the Regional and Baby bits, and routes only, not hardware. How the details will pan out is a debate for the future.
I remember talk a couple of years ago that Virgin were looking to Flybe for a partnership in as much as Flybe would be a feeder airline to their longhaul fleet. The reasons were that the Virgin longhaul FO's with thousands of hours didn't have enough manual take-offs and landings to progress to command!
Perhaps there is a deal that Jim's got up his sleeve for the Heathrow slots!
That said, it's all speculation. Lets hope though that the Flybe seniority list isn't corrupted by incoming pilots as happened with the BACon fiasco!
I'm pretty sure that Jim is only interested in the Regional and Baby bits, and routes only, not hardware. How the details will pan out is a debate for the future.
I remember talk a couple of years ago that Virgin were looking to Flybe for a partnership in as much as Flybe would be a feeder airline to their longhaul fleet. The reasons were that the Virgin longhaul FO's with thousands of hours didn't have enough manual take-offs and landings to progress to command!
Perhaps there is a deal that Jim's got up his sleeve for the Heathrow slots!
That said, it's all speculation. Lets hope though that the Flybe seniority list isn't corrupted by incoming pilots as happened with the BACon fiasco!
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
There maybe a misunderstanding here, perhaps I should have used the word diluted rather than corrupted. No disrespect to the ex Bacon pilots but I was referring to the fact that I (and many others) slid down the seniority list and the chance of a jet command put back several years because the seniority lists were merged. If the same were to happen with the (alleged) BMI acquisition then there would be a lot of disgruntled (original) Flybe pilots.
Last edited by Snigs; 30th September 2009 at 13:07.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,543
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From: Samsonite Avenue
The reasons were that the Virgin longhaul FO's with thousands of hours didn't have enough manual take-offs and landings to progress to command!
