IPF, the sweetheart union of choice!
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IPF, the sweetheart union of choice!
DHL Air pilots have been campaigning since the beginning of the year to have BALPA recognised. The management have stalled and procrastinated and delayed. BALPA were very patient, exploring every avenue of voluntary recognition before before realising what all the DHL pilots knew, management were never going recognise them voluntarily.
They began the compulsory process by notifying DHL of there intentions and DHL asked to go to ACAS and to extend the 20 'grace' period for talks to reslove things amicably (more stalling).
Then out of the blue DHL announce they have signed a voluntary recognition agreement with the IPF!
BALPA communicated with the IPF what the situation was and that they were likely being used by the management as a sweetheart deal. That most of the pilots wanted balpa and had made their views clear. The IPF refused to back away from the agreement. Even though they had no support and therefore were accountable to nobody.
None of the pilots want the IPF. BALPA ran an independent survey of the 180 pilots. 121 voted for BALPA, 0 voted for the IPF. The IPF still refuse to back down.
I naively thought we lived in a democracy and that employees had a choice on who they wanted to represent them. I didn't think unions would be forced upon employees in this day and age.
The management have acted in a disgraceful manner. But we expect it from that lot. What we didn't expect was to have a union, whose members you can count on one hand in this airline, behave in such a dispicable way.
We have all made representations to Peter Jackson at the IPF but he refuses to budge from his position, one that fly's in the face of decency. I would have expected more professionalism from such an organisation.
This is not about whether you like or don't like BALPA or the IPF, everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. But the DHL pilots have spoken out clearly in favour of BALPA. The managemnets behaviour in ignoring us and pretending that they want to be all inclusive and listen very carefully to our veiws is laughable but par for the course. But we expected a more mature attitude from the IPF.
I would like to call for all IPF members to tear up their little certificates and cancel their direct debits until the IPF do what is right and proper.
Solidarity brothers!
They began the compulsory process by notifying DHL of there intentions and DHL asked to go to ACAS and to extend the 20 'grace' period for talks to reslove things amicably (more stalling).
Then out of the blue DHL announce they have signed a voluntary recognition agreement with the IPF!
BALPA communicated with the IPF what the situation was and that they were likely being used by the management as a sweetheart deal. That most of the pilots wanted balpa and had made their views clear. The IPF refused to back away from the agreement. Even though they had no support and therefore were accountable to nobody.
None of the pilots want the IPF. BALPA ran an independent survey of the 180 pilots. 121 voted for BALPA, 0 voted for the IPF. The IPF still refuse to back down.
I naively thought we lived in a democracy and that employees had a choice on who they wanted to represent them. I didn't think unions would be forced upon employees in this day and age.
The management have acted in a disgraceful manner. But we expect it from that lot. What we didn't expect was to have a union, whose members you can count on one hand in this airline, behave in such a dispicable way.
We have all made representations to Peter Jackson at the IPF but he refuses to budge from his position, one that fly's in the face of decency. I would have expected more professionalism from such an organisation.
This is not about whether you like or don't like BALPA or the IPF, everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. But the DHL pilots have spoken out clearly in favour of BALPA. The managemnets behaviour in ignoring us and pretending that they want to be all inclusive and listen very carefully to our veiws is laughable but par for the course. But we expected a more mature attitude from the IPF.
I would like to call for all IPF members to tear up their little certificates and cancel their direct debits until the IPF do what is right and proper.
Solidarity brothers!
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Management only listens when you hurt them in their wallet... STRIKE for God's sake and do NOT budge, under no circumstances until the issues concerning Union representation, basing, commuting and fixed/random roster are resolved.
You call for action, but the only action that makes management afraid you don't dare to speak about within DHL UK, or EAT for that matter.
You call for action, but the only action that makes management afraid you don't dare to speak about within DHL UK, or EAT for that matter.
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On the face of it, this is very disappointing!
I am one of the earliest members, not quite a founder, but nearly.
Rather than tearing up my little card, I would welcome reasoned response from someone in the know.
There may also be more to hear from other sides of the debate (as is so often the case here!)
In the meantime.......sympathy Bro.
I am one of the earliest members, not quite a founder, but nearly.
Rather than tearing up my little card, I would welcome reasoned response from someone in the know.
There may also be more to hear from other sides of the debate (as is so often the case here!)
In the meantime.......sympathy Bro.
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It seems the IPF is happy to work with renegade employers against the interest of pilots.A very unhappy state of affairs which should be questioned by its very few members.BALPA really is the only body capable of satifactorily representing pilots interests in DHL.Stampe
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As time passes, I only seem to hear more stories of disillusioned BALPA members. I cut my ties with BALPA and moved to the IPA/IPF just over a year ago. I certainly have no regrets in doing so.
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No regrets mr geezer, because you are not in DHL.
PS. I do though fully respect your choice. Nobody is perfect and I have heard some horror stories re. Balpa.
This is not about the merits of one union over another. It is about behaving appropriately. There is another side to the story ( there always is) but they lost me in all the management spiel!
PS. I do though fully respect your choice. Nobody is perfect and I have heard some horror stories re. Balpa.
This is not about the merits of one union over another. It is about behaving appropriately. There is another side to the story ( there always is) but they lost me in all the management spiel!
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No regrets mr geezer, because you are not in DHL.
PS. I do though fully respect your choice. Nobody is perfect and I have heard some horror stories re. Balpa.
This is not about the merits of one union over another. It is about behaving appropriately. There is another side to the story ( there always is) but they lost me in all the management spiel!
PS. I do though fully respect your choice. Nobody is perfect and I have heard some horror stories re. Balpa.
This is not about the merits of one union over another. It is about behaving appropriately. There is another side to the story ( there always is) but they lost me in all the management spiel!
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oscar 1850
As an ocassional browser of pprune I am painfully aware that many posts are based on opinion rather than fact and as such need to be treated with caution.
As a long term DHL pilot I can point out several factual errors in the initial posting from 'Spitix'
1 'none of the pilots want the IPF....' This is nonsense . Several DHL pilots are IPF members and are actively campaigning on behalf of this organisation.
2 'BALPA ran an independent survey of the 180 pilots...' This too is nonsense. I was not balloted and have spoken to many others who were also not balloted. Possibly because they are not BALPA members. I would not dispute that the majority of pilots in DHL are indeed BALPA members, however I question the wisdom of conducting an election where only 'party members ' are chosen to participate! Any form of ballot or election MUST include all relevant persons or the results are seriously flawed.
3 'We have all made representations to Peter Jackson...' This too is nonsense. I don't know Peter Jackson and have certainly never spoken to him.
So what is my point? I am not a union member and do not anticipate ever being one, but the frustration of many of my colleagues who are members of BALPA is plain to see. BALPA have not conducted this campaign in a manner which is likely to achieve the desired results and the DHL management are enjoying it immensely. As one of my colleagues said to me today.. 'I don't think think I'm getting value for money from this bunch of c---s!!
Think on Brothers
As a long term DHL pilot I can point out several factual errors in the initial posting from 'Spitix'
1 'none of the pilots want the IPF....' This is nonsense . Several DHL pilots are IPF members and are actively campaigning on behalf of this organisation.
2 'BALPA ran an independent survey of the 180 pilots...' This too is nonsense. I was not balloted and have spoken to many others who were also not balloted. Possibly because they are not BALPA members. I would not dispute that the majority of pilots in DHL are indeed BALPA members, however I question the wisdom of conducting an election where only 'party members ' are chosen to participate! Any form of ballot or election MUST include all relevant persons or the results are seriously flawed.
3 'We have all made representations to Peter Jackson...' This too is nonsense. I don't know Peter Jackson and have certainly never spoken to him.
So what is my point? I am not a union member and do not anticipate ever being one, but the frustration of many of my colleagues who are members of BALPA is plain to see. BALPA have not conducted this campaign in a manner which is likely to achieve the desired results and the DHL management are enjoying it immensely. As one of my colleagues said to me today.. 'I don't think think I'm getting value for money from this bunch of c---s!!
Think on Brothers
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The facts are these:
Over 70% of DHL Air UK pilots are members of BALPA;
They requested BALPA to negotiate with DHL Air for a recognition agreement;
Despite many stalling tactics, BALPA continued patient negotiation with the management;
Due to further stalling, BALPA began the statutory procedure for recognition. The company requested the use of ACAS and an extension to the 10 day negotiation period in order to reach a voluntary agreement. BALPA agreed to extend to 20 days but no more;
After 10 days of this period DHL Air suddenly announce they have reached a voluntary recognition agreement with the IPA/F;
The IPA claims they have 10% of DHL Air pilots as members;
The General Secretaries of BALPA and IPA had a meeting in which, BALPA say, that the IPA General Secretary agreed to withdraw if a ballot of all the pilots in DHL Air showed a majority wanted BALPA to represent them;
An on-line ballot was quickly organised and conducted by the independent polling agency, Popularis. The results were that 67% of DHL Air pilots voted for BALPA to represent them, 0.5% voted not to have union representation at all, 32.5% either chose not to vote or could not vote as they did not provide an e-mail address and 0% voted for the IPA;
The General Secretary of the IPA refused to withdraw claiming that the ballot was flawed because 32.5% of the pilots did not vote and were therefore disenfranchised;
Most DHL Air pilots are extremely angry with the IPA for prolonging the recognition process and not respecting the wishes of the majority;
To date there have been no meetings between DHL Air and the IPA to forge a working agreement and the IPA have not made any effort to contact the pilots it claims to represent.
Make of this what you will. I am a BALPA member. I have changed my usual username to protect my identity.
Over 70% of DHL Air UK pilots are members of BALPA;
They requested BALPA to negotiate with DHL Air for a recognition agreement;
Despite many stalling tactics, BALPA continued patient negotiation with the management;
Due to further stalling, BALPA began the statutory procedure for recognition. The company requested the use of ACAS and an extension to the 10 day negotiation period in order to reach a voluntary agreement. BALPA agreed to extend to 20 days but no more;
After 10 days of this period DHL Air suddenly announce they have reached a voluntary recognition agreement with the IPA/F;
The IPA claims they have 10% of DHL Air pilots as members;
The General Secretaries of BALPA and IPA had a meeting in which, BALPA say, that the IPA General Secretary agreed to withdraw if a ballot of all the pilots in DHL Air showed a majority wanted BALPA to represent them;
An on-line ballot was quickly organised and conducted by the independent polling agency, Popularis. The results were that 67% of DHL Air pilots voted for BALPA to represent them, 0.5% voted not to have union representation at all, 32.5% either chose not to vote or could not vote as they did not provide an e-mail address and 0% voted for the IPA;
The General Secretary of the IPA refused to withdraw claiming that the ballot was flawed because 32.5% of the pilots did not vote and were therefore disenfranchised;
Most DHL Air pilots are extremely angry with the IPA for prolonging the recognition process and not respecting the wishes of the majority;
To date there have been no meetings between DHL Air and the IPA to forge a working agreement and the IPA have not made any effort to contact the pilots it claims to represent.
Make of this what you will. I am a BALPA member. I have changed my usual username to protect my identity.
I understand there is a strict legal process with repect to union recognition.
If, as been stated, so few support the IPF in this case, surely this must be against the rules - will watch this one with great interest!
If, as been stated, so few support the IPF in this case, surely this must be against the rules - will watch this one with great interest!
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As to the vote organised with a reputable agency.
The vote was not as straight forward as some may imagine.
BALPA supplied the e-mails of all their members to the agency, whilst it was left to the remaining third or the pilots to find their own method of contacting the agency.
Flyers were circulated in the Leipzig crew room, but nothing was available in East Midlands.
The time frame was less than two weeks from inception to the vote.
Not all pilots passed through Lej and some were on holiday during this period.
Every pilot has a company e-mail address which could have been used to contact them with details on how to approach the agency.
The tactic was to rush through the vote, and slant the result towards the BALPA view.
Little was known of the IPF prior to the company announcing its agreement, and nothing has been heard from them subsequently.
Offers have been made by the IPF to BALPA and I understand that they were rejected.
The IPF has offered to represent all the pilots regardless of their union affiliation, and do not require IPF membership.
There are several non BALPA members, who are either Unite, IPF or who have no union affiliation.
The first reaction upon hearing the news that voluntary recognition had been awarded to the IPF (In negotiation since 2006) a member of DHL Air urged the BALPA members to flood the IPF chairman with e-mails and telephone calls. This could be easily taken as harassment as several pilots took it upon themselves to make their voices heard.
Whilst we try to live in a democracy, and take note of a majority the management decided to go down the route of the minority union, which they state was the only union prepared to represent all the pilots.
Those in the know will understand that more is on offer from voluntary recognition than through obtaining statutory status.
Many of you will say that the vote showed that the required 50% +1 were in favour of BALPA, this is perfectly true if the vote had been for statutory recognition, but the IPF had a signed agreement with the company in late July before the vote.
There are two sides to every argument good and bad on both. In this case BALPA is trying to bully the IPF into withdrawing from a perfectly legal agreement (David V Goliath).
The real losers in this are the pilots themselves, who could have had exactly what they wanted all along, voluntary recognition.
That actions of BALPA and its members in this dispute has been confrontational.
Whilst the silence from the IPF has not helped their cause one iota.
I do not support any organisation who will not include all bargaining units (Unionised or not) with a right vote in its deliberations.
Please now leave this as an internal matter and await developments without further comment pro or con.
The vote was not as straight forward as some may imagine.
BALPA supplied the e-mails of all their members to the agency, whilst it was left to the remaining third or the pilots to find their own method of contacting the agency.
Flyers were circulated in the Leipzig crew room, but nothing was available in East Midlands.
The time frame was less than two weeks from inception to the vote.
Not all pilots passed through Lej and some were on holiday during this period.
Every pilot has a company e-mail address which could have been used to contact them with details on how to approach the agency.
The tactic was to rush through the vote, and slant the result towards the BALPA view.
Little was known of the IPF prior to the company announcing its agreement, and nothing has been heard from them subsequently.
Offers have been made by the IPF to BALPA and I understand that they were rejected.
The IPF has offered to represent all the pilots regardless of their union affiliation, and do not require IPF membership.
There are several non BALPA members, who are either Unite, IPF or who have no union affiliation.
The first reaction upon hearing the news that voluntary recognition had been awarded to the IPF (In negotiation since 2006) a member of DHL Air urged the BALPA members to flood the IPF chairman with e-mails and telephone calls. This could be easily taken as harassment as several pilots took it upon themselves to make their voices heard.
Whilst we try to live in a democracy, and take note of a majority the management decided to go down the route of the minority union, which they state was the only union prepared to represent all the pilots.
Those in the know will understand that more is on offer from voluntary recognition than through obtaining statutory status.
Many of you will say that the vote showed that the required 50% +1 were in favour of BALPA, this is perfectly true if the vote had been for statutory recognition, but the IPF had a signed agreement with the company in late July before the vote.
There are two sides to every argument good and bad on both. In this case BALPA is trying to bully the IPF into withdrawing from a perfectly legal agreement (David V Goliath).
The real losers in this are the pilots themselves, who could have had exactly what they wanted all along, voluntary recognition.
That actions of BALPA and its members in this dispute has been confrontational.
Whilst the silence from the IPF has not helped their cause one iota.
I do not support any organisation who will not include all bargaining units (Unionised or not) with a right vote in its deliberations.
Please now leave this as an internal matter and await developments without further comment pro or con.
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I love Day Dreamer's last line. " I have spoken. Everyone else must now remain silent." I also like the bit which claims that the management chose IPF as they would provide the best representation for the pilots. How thoughtful! Finally, Day Dreamer, would you mind telling us how a union is supposed to represent people who refuse to join any union.
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Is IPF apart of IPA? I assume its the union side of the association, I have a subsciption to IPA which I will cancel and make my reasons clear. I'm not DHL but a pilot in another airline and will not fund a union that takes this action!!
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You have Union recognition
OK it's not what the BALPA members wanted but you do now have a recognition agreement. That is a start.
It might be a lot less expensive for pilot's to go with IPF at least in the short term and see how it pans out for 6 months or so. 1% or a few pounds a month?
I do know PG and he does have the pilot's interests at heart. He is an able negotiator and man of integrity. Sound's like IPF just got on with it whereas BALPA's approach didn't work.
All the best with it what ever the outcome.
It might be a lot less expensive for pilot's to go with IPF at least in the short term and see how it pans out for 6 months or so. 1% or a few pounds a month?
I do know PG and he does have the pilot's interests at heart. He is an able negotiator and man of integrity. Sound's like IPF just got on with it whereas BALPA's approach didn't work.
All the best with it what ever the outcome.
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Wow angelorange, if only life were that simple!
PJ may well be a really nice guy but nice guys tend to be prime targets for manipulation. The situation in which DHL pilots now find themselves (thanks to PJ and the IPF) is really quite extraordinary. Frankly I am in total awe with DHL management but feel disgusted with the the IPF for putting fellow aviators in such a powerless position.
Re-read SpitIX's initial post a second time will you?
PJ may well be a really nice guy but nice guys tend to be prime targets for manipulation. The situation in which DHL pilots now find themselves (thanks to PJ and the IPF) is really quite extraordinary. Frankly I am in total awe with DHL management but feel disgusted with the the IPF for putting fellow aviators in such a powerless position.
Re-read SpitIX's initial post a second time will you?
Last edited by sapco2; 24th Sep 2009 at 07:50.