IPF, the sweetheart union of choice!
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Caravan
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Angelorange read what happened. The company entered into a 20 day consultation period after BALPA gave them a 10 day warning of statutory recognition. The company then ,very underhanded, during that 20 day period contacted PJ ,at the IPF, out of the blue and signed a deal to block BALPA. PJ will tell you they were in negotiations in 2006 again a lie, TGWU was the union of choice that time. Never has the IPF been considered seriously by the pilot workforce. It has very few numbers. If you ask PJ how many, he will not tell you. Also the agreement was signed over a month and a half ago yet no pilot in DHL Air has seen the agreement and no effort has been made to talk to people. This is outrageous as the agreement details the negotiating rights of the pilots. PJ has been asked for this and never provided it and neither has the comapnay. This sort of tactic with unions, was common in the 1980's to block the union of choice for the employee and signing a weaker union up which can lead to a reduction in terms and conditions. Its a classic union busting technique which the management would not have come up with on there own. The way it was announced to the pilots was via company website announcement at 1745pm'ish on a friday afternoon. The letter from the IPA was posted and started off with "As you are all aware". Well not one pilot outside of management was aware. It is disgraceful what the management of this company has done and when you look at the 7 core values of DHL which are plastered around various hubs, honesty, integrity etc. it makes you weep! If anyone from DP - DHL is reading this, the pilots of DHL Air uk would like you to take a good look at what has happened. If anyone from the press is reading this in the uk, this sort of union busting technique has not been seen for 25 years. It might make a good story!
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you keep the IPA/IPF which, it looks like you may have to unless you all "down tools" so as to speak, you will also need a pilot council to support the negotiations as this organisation tends to depend on Pilot input rather than being creative. PJ may be a nice bloke etc, but you need more clout if you want to achieve anything serious at negotiations, having said that, Pilots as a whole can be apathetic and put their fate in the hands of others, if you do this, just be prepared to accept the outcome may be a lot less than you wish. Ok on day to day issues and rules etc, PJ may be your man, but up against DHL management he will be out gunned unless you guys engage in the process. Bit of thread creep here, but heads up. Fundamentally, what DHL and these guys have done is morally wrong and may even be illegal, has anyone looked at the European laws on this
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not UK
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that if there was any breach of law, whether EU or UK, then BALPAs army of legal experts (you know, the ones that are standing by at all hours to help you as a member the very moment you get into any bother!) would have already been banging the drum.
BALPA does not normally give up the chance of stitching up a load of subs easily.
BALPA does not normally give up the chance of stitching up a load of subs easily.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not quite as simple as that Flyinstig.
A voluntary recognition agreement can be legally entered into with as few as 10% of the workforce belonging to that union; all it takes to ratify the agreement is a nominee from the workforce. The company may actually have one or more pilot nominees but in our case none of the pilots are aware of who they are, nor have we actually seen a copy of the agreement.
Many pilots from within the company have contacted PJ (IPF man) directly. I did, and he confirmed he has entered into a union agreement with DHL. I asked him who the pilot nominees were and he replied "I am protecting the identity of those persons". I asked "can I see a copy of the agreement", he replied "DHL will publish it on our company website" but 6 weeks later we still haven't seen any sign of the agreement. I also asked PJ if 10% of the pilots are IPF members and replied "I am not obliged to tell you that".
Talking to colleagues in the crewrooms I found two pilots who are IPF members and both say they have received no notification whatsoever from the IPF. They claim they do not know what has been agreed to and frankly I believe them.
Meanwhile PJ of the IPF apparently now won't talk to any of us!
A voluntary recognition agreement can be legally entered into with as few as 10% of the workforce belonging to that union; all it takes to ratify the agreement is a nominee from the workforce. The company may actually have one or more pilot nominees but in our case none of the pilots are aware of who they are, nor have we actually seen a copy of the agreement.
Many pilots from within the company have contacted PJ (IPF man) directly. I did, and he confirmed he has entered into a union agreement with DHL. I asked him who the pilot nominees were and he replied "I am protecting the identity of those persons". I asked "can I see a copy of the agreement", he replied "DHL will publish it on our company website" but 6 weeks later we still haven't seen any sign of the agreement. I also asked PJ if 10% of the pilots are IPF members and replied "I am not obliged to tell you that".
Talking to colleagues in the crewrooms I found two pilots who are IPF members and both say they have received no notification whatsoever from the IPF. They claim they do not know what has been agreed to and frankly I believe them.
Meanwhile PJ of the IPF apparently now won't talk to any of us!
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not UK
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sapco.
As a long time member of the IPA I am extrememly disappointed at what you say.
Nonetheless my previous posting was directed simply at the question raised as to whether anything illegal had been done!
It doesnt make sense for the IPA to deliberately antagonise and alienate the very people they have gone to such lengths to represent.
I wish you luck!
As a long time member of the IPA I am extrememly disappointed at what you say.
Nonetheless my previous posting was directed simply at the question raised as to whether anything illegal had been done!
It doesnt make sense for the IPA to deliberately antagonise and alienate the very people they have gone to such lengths to represent.
I wish you luck!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
underhanded comments
Having had considerable experience (with different companies) of both BALPA and IPF I am surprised by the comments on this forum. Yes this is the Pilot's Rumour network but to name a respected Union negotiator and lambast that person whilst you yourselves remain nameless is utterly shameful.
How much money have you invested in BALPA over the past year(s)?
Have you considered the cynical view that their slowness to get recognition (seeing as you could have achieved it with far fewer members much earlier) an attempt to gain greater numbers for more than numerical workforce advantage? After all DHL pilots are not the poorest in the industry - 1% of a half decent salary times X = significant income.
Seems that loosing out to IPF makes BALPA members angry in their wallets for backing a horse that lost. And now those folk are attacking the one guy who is trying to help them out of the mess instead of fighting for rights with DHL mgt.
How much money have you invested in BALPA over the past year(s)?
Have you considered the cynical view that their slowness to get recognition (seeing as you could have achieved it with far fewer members much earlier) an attempt to gain greater numbers for more than numerical workforce advantage? After all DHL pilots are not the poorest in the industry - 1% of a half decent salary times X = significant income.
Seems that loosing out to IPF makes BALPA members angry in their wallets for backing a horse that lost. And now those folk are attacking the one guy who is trying to help them out of the mess instead of fighting for rights with DHL mgt.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David v Goliath or his own side?
Interesting that Day Dreamer should see BALPA/IPF as a David v Goliath senario but perhaps the real Goliath is management's pilot benefit/cost cutting and those who know the biblical story will understand this:
David, so the story goes, represented sheep - he was a shepherd boy overlooked by his older (wiser?) siblings who had joined King Saul's army. He was seen as insignificant.
That army was in deadlock with the Philistines. The latter used the giant Goliath to torment and tease Saul's army on a daily basis - castigating them for their inability to deal with the problem.
Along comes David delivering a simple food package for his older brothers. He sees the Goliath problem and get's stuck in using the tools of his trade. He refuses the heavy and expensive armour that King Saul says he should wear ("join our union it is the only one with clout!"). Yet, sometimes smaller, lighter, and well tested methods work better than huge, expensive confrontations (eg: Voluntary v Statuatory recognition).
Throughout the story and even after David sorts out the Goliath problem, his brothers sneer at him but in the longer term the Philistines were beaten and David's followers ended up far better off......
There is a time for standard drill - David himself wore armour later in life, but sometimes in difficult circumstances, the unexpected method can turn things around to your favour far more quickly.
David, so the story goes, represented sheep - he was a shepherd boy overlooked by his older (wiser?) siblings who had joined King Saul's army. He was seen as insignificant.
That army was in deadlock with the Philistines. The latter used the giant Goliath to torment and tease Saul's army on a daily basis - castigating them for their inability to deal with the problem.
Along comes David delivering a simple food package for his older brothers. He sees the Goliath problem and get's stuck in using the tools of his trade. He refuses the heavy and expensive armour that King Saul says he should wear ("join our union it is the only one with clout!"). Yet, sometimes smaller, lighter, and well tested methods work better than huge, expensive confrontations (eg: Voluntary v Statuatory recognition).
Throughout the story and even after David sorts out the Goliath problem, his brothers sneer at him but in the longer term the Philistines were beaten and David's followers ended up far better off......
There is a time for standard drill - David himself wore armour later in life, but sometimes in difficult circumstances, the unexpected method can turn things around to your favour far more quickly.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: BHX-MAN-EMA
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Angelorange
Best post that I have read on Pprune in many a year.
Eloquent and very much to the point.
I only hope that it is understood by those to whom it is intended.
Many here are being or have been brainwashed by the Goliath in this battle and unfortunately are unwilling to see the advantages on offer.
A recent post on a members only website for DHL Air pilots still uses the rallying call for BALPA voluntary recognition, something that cannot and will not happen, as long as current management are in charge.
The best that they can achieve would be statutory recognition, with far less benefits.
Should BALPA prevail and obtain recognition, thus removing the management choice, do you realistically think that a two way dialog could be engaged between a BALPA IRO and management, I think not !!!
Barden
It does not matter if the IPF have or have not represented other companies, the point is that they should be given the chance to prove their worth.
Something they have already done on an individual basis for their members.
Best post that I have read on Pprune in many a year.
Eloquent and very much to the point.
I only hope that it is understood by those to whom it is intended.
Many here are being or have been brainwashed by the Goliath in this battle and unfortunately are unwilling to see the advantages on offer.
A recent post on a members only website for DHL Air pilots still uses the rallying call for BALPA voluntary recognition, something that cannot and will not happen, as long as current management are in charge.
The best that they can achieve would be statutory recognition, with far less benefits.
Should BALPA prevail and obtain recognition, thus removing the management choice, do you realistically think that a two way dialog could be engaged between a BALPA IRO and management, I think not !!!
Barden
It does not matter if the IPF have or have not represented other companies, the point is that they should be given the chance to prove their worth.
Something they have already done on an individual basis for their members.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Richmondshire
Age: 66
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So effectively DHL pilots are saddled with an amateur 'union' with no experience in conducting wide scale industrial relations with modern airline management to do their bidding for them - no wonder DHL management were so keen to get them in!
Speaking up for a pilot who's been a bad boy and promises never to do it again can't be compared to negotiating with professional managers on behalf of a whole workforce.
Good luck guys. It's a hard world out there.
Speaking up for a pilot who's been a bad boy and promises never to do it again can't be compared to negotiating with professional managers on behalf of a whole workforce.
Good luck guys. It's a hard world out there.
Last edited by Barden; 24th Sep 2009 at 21:48.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: BHX-MAN-EMA
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barden
You are talking through your fundamental ......., and unless you have factual evidence to prove the IPA / IPF amateur I suggest you give them a chance.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of angelorange, as your last post proves.
You are talking through your fundamental ......., and unless you have factual evidence to prove the IPA / IPF amateur I suggest you give them a chance.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of angelorange, as your last post proves.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Richmondshire
Age: 66
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understood Agent Orange's point clearly, I found his method of argument rather creative, but the argument itself without merit.
The IPA are already being given a chance. By the DHL management. Go stead there boy. Keep quiet and we'll make it aright for you. Just remember who invited you in. And why...
I will ask again, which airlines does the IPA represent?
The IPA are already being given a chance. By the DHL management. Go stead there boy. Keep quiet and we'll make it aright for you. Just remember who invited you in. And why...
I will ask again, which airlines does the IPA represent?
Mistrust in Management
Day Dreamer - Dream on
It does not matter if the IPF have or have not represented other companies, the point is that they should be given the chance to prove their worth.
The IPA/IPF believe in 'working with' management to ensure a good outcome for all. A good stance some may say - but my experience is different
In negotiations with management I have found they attend but let the Pilot's rep take the lead. For the most part they are quiet but then 'give advice' which generally goes along the lines of "well the management insist on this and that, so there is nothing we can do about it". Frankly they are hopeless.
By the way I am not saying that they are not well meaning - just hopeless.
The IPA/IPF are after 'market share'. They achieved it with Astraeus and it seems they may have achieved it with DHL (Perhaps Chief Pilots talk to each other - that would be a shock eh!)
Resist it at all costs because the final cost will lay at the door of DHL Pilots.
It seems DHL may be pulling a fast one here.
Regards
Exeng
Last edited by exeng; 25th Sep 2009 at 09:12. Reason: edited for clarity
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Where I fall
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DAy Dreamer, your not married to Angel Orange by any chance, what a load of manure.
You must have read the IPF agreemant by now and the letter thay are sending out to all DHL pilots. Even the IPF don't see this as a long term relationship and will be quite happy to step down, but try and cling on for a year when the force of opinion is against them. I like the second to last clause in the agreement, the bit that says this will not be legally binding, doesn't that mean that the company will do what they want when they want to whom they want and bu%^er the rest.
You must have read the IPF agreemant by now and the letter thay are sending out to all DHL pilots. Even the IPF don't see this as a long term relationship and will be quite happy to step down, but try and cling on for a year when the force of opinion is against them. I like the second to last clause in the agreement, the bit that says this will not be legally binding, doesn't that mean that the company will do what they want when they want to whom they want and bu%^er the rest.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading the comments on this forum, it would appear the process has failed before it has begun! The principle of the "union" uniting workers and representing the rank and file through their negotiator would seem fundamentally flawed if pilot reps have to do the runniing, thus exposing themselves to the sniper shots from the management. Of course the IPF want to increase their market, they are a business like any other, and frankly, I doubt they would field a negotiator that was incompetent, however, the principle prevails that if the rank and file don't agree to their services..why are they there? Perhaps there is some foundation in the thought it is to keep BALPA out..Two issues..Are BALPA any better for the members.. I doubt it, just more expensive, and.. is the perceived threat of a large union such as BALPA influencing the process to the detriment of the pilots..
A famous quote.."The Trade Unions were formed to protect workers from being exploited and making sure they have fair wages and working conditions"
"Up the workers", well it would appear this is the case!
A famous quote.."The Trade Unions were formed to protect workers from being exploited and making sure they have fair wages and working conditions"
"Up the workers", well it would appear this is the case!
Moon Walker
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: the Moon
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a ex employee i know how DHL Air management works.
We tried to get the TGWU in but this was not possible as they didn't want to get into BALPA's way.
BALPA was never my favorite union but numbers speak so lots of the people did join BALPA to get things changed(inc.me)
I also was a member of the IPA/IPF for the last 10 years, its a good organisation for help but not powerful enough to help the staff reach a good bargaining agreement with management.
I was already in the ****s with management and was luckily able to leave for pastures greener(yes they really are) im not a member of the TGWU, BALPA or the IPA any more and my opinion doesn't matter as i dont work there anymore.
But in my eyes the majority should have a say in what union gets in, if some people dont think they need a union thats fine, they can maybe get a free ride when a union gets in.
It is very strange that Management can decide what union is best for the workers, thats the same as a employee deciding what salary is appropriate for himself.
But like with many things the UK is a strange country when it goes about labour law.
the practise of a union going in and signing a agreement "for there members" without even telling there members is also a strange practise.
My advice to all DHL staff is watch out for the managers, they will do anything to keep full control over there staff.(speaking from experience)
Neil
We tried to get the TGWU in but this was not possible as they didn't want to get into BALPA's way.
BALPA was never my favorite union but numbers speak so lots of the people did join BALPA to get things changed(inc.me)
I also was a member of the IPA/IPF for the last 10 years, its a good organisation for help but not powerful enough to help the staff reach a good bargaining agreement with management.
I was already in the ****s with management and was luckily able to leave for pastures greener(yes they really are) im not a member of the TGWU, BALPA or the IPA any more and my opinion doesn't matter as i dont work there anymore.
But in my eyes the majority should have a say in what union gets in, if some people dont think they need a union thats fine, they can maybe get a free ride when a union gets in.
It is very strange that Management can decide what union is best for the workers, thats the same as a employee deciding what salary is appropriate for himself.
But like with many things the UK is a strange country when it goes about labour law.
the practise of a union going in and signing a agreement "for there members" without even telling there members is also a strange practise.
My advice to all DHL staff is watch out for the managers, they will do anything to keep full control over there staff.(speaking from experience)
Neil
