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but the point is you should never be in a position where you feel you should make such a statement. Either way, the best of luck to everyone, the dole queue is long, getting longer and there is usually only one hatch open!
But truth being told, in this day an age, i'd rather still have a job and (maybe) be treated like rubbish by the management than sitting in the dole que...
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But truth being told, in this day an age, i'd rather still have a job and (maybe) be treated like rubbish by the management than sitting in the dole que...
On the plus side ATS, I am getting a lovely tan! seem to have lost the pasty 4am look! :-)
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Still i see no one has answered ATS' or my own question - will Balpa / pro-balpa pilots pay my salary, mortgage, living expenses when my/our base is closed and we've got no jobs??
Also will you still say Balpa was the right choice when your lining up in the dole queue??
As ATS said, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job.
Also will you still say Balpa was the right choice when your lining up in the dole queue??
As ATS said, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job.
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I would like to refer to my CC colleague Abusing The Sky but this is also gonna be a wider picture I will try to draw for those who are not familiar with FR or those who seem to live a happy and very provicial life in some supposedly FR "heavenly base".
The very common story of 2 FR pilots:
Cadet:
-passes the selection and has to find (often in a very few days) 28K euros to fund his training not including accomodation/food for the whole period (ground school/sim/base training)
-during line training (after safety pilot release) earns peanuts and gets thrown around all across the FR network wherever there are line trainers available (accomodation/transport/food at his own expenses)
-after passing his line check he gets a base ,a few lucky ones get the one of choice, but the majority find themselves in a foreign country where they have to settle virtually without any support whatsoever from the company.
-if they are lucky enough not to be transferred elsewhere without notice (like the VLC guys) loosing their rent deposits or having to move the whole family to another country and find an international school for their kids right in the middle of the school year then they start line flying
-line flying for an F/O consists generally of 1 or 2 days ON and 3 or 4 STBY days during which a BRK pilot makes no money but still has to be available, pay his rent, his bills, his training loans and eventually take care of his family; not unusual to find yourself flying 40 hours/month which translates into 4000 euros gross/month which becomes less than 3000 after tax (now consider paying back 28K for the type rating, probably even more for their basic training, the rent, the bills, the car park, the uniform,some sort of health insurance, a little loss of license insurance, the car,the hotel when going to the sim or when sent out of base....let alone supporting a family).
-Let's say one manages to survive (most do, FR is full of nice guys/girls who love their jobs and give it all they have to succeed) and after some years he gets his command upgrade (bonded) just to find himself on a lower payscale than the other captains for 1 year and also sent away to another base after say 3 or 4 years he had settled into the one he was operating from
Captains:
-generally arrive from other airlines (for many different reasons) with lots of experience and already typed.
-they usually get asked their preferred base but only a handful get it, the rest are sent far from home in one of the many bases to find out that they don't even have a 5/4 roster but a 5/3 like the new italian bases.
-many end up opting for a floating BRK contract and start living like gypsies (organizing their own travels/hotels/meals/transoptation) hoping that way to be able to get home more often while waiting to be finally transferred to their base of choice.
-some wait for years and are told the waiting list for their specific base is very long, just to find out for instance that a newly upgraded Captain has just been sent there
-they don't have the same problem as the F/O's with low flying hours because they easily max out the yearly limits (900 hours) and make around 130K gross which equals 6800 euros net/month (excluding car park,uniform,hotels,car,bills,mortgage,family,health insurance,loss of licence etc etc)
Both Capt's and F/O's have either a FR contract that can vary in T&C's from base to base or a BRK 5 years renewable contract that could be terminated at any time.
I am very aware of the fact that what I wrote can for some be an exaggeration but for others could also sound quite mild too; this is just to let people know that as there are people fat and happy with what they have in EMA like our colleague ATS there are also many people all across the network who are unhappy enough to look for CHANGE.
Especially when they are fully aware they are working for the most successful airline around.
It would take very little effort to make this company one of the best places to work for, the BALPA campaign is just a way to voice our concerns and hopefully the starting point of a new era in which we will be finally able to sit down with the bosses and talk both about financial growth and the well being of those who make that growth possible.
Will it be a tough game?Yes it will probably be, but it's worth trying because the alternative is the status quo.
The very common story of 2 FR pilots:
Cadet:
-passes the selection and has to find (often in a very few days) 28K euros to fund his training not including accomodation/food for the whole period (ground school/sim/base training)
-during line training (after safety pilot release) earns peanuts and gets thrown around all across the FR network wherever there are line trainers available (accomodation/transport/food at his own expenses)
-after passing his line check he gets a base ,a few lucky ones get the one of choice, but the majority find themselves in a foreign country where they have to settle virtually without any support whatsoever from the company.
-if they are lucky enough not to be transferred elsewhere without notice (like the VLC guys) loosing their rent deposits or having to move the whole family to another country and find an international school for their kids right in the middle of the school year then they start line flying
-line flying for an F/O consists generally of 1 or 2 days ON and 3 or 4 STBY days during which a BRK pilot makes no money but still has to be available, pay his rent, his bills, his training loans and eventually take care of his family; not unusual to find yourself flying 40 hours/month which translates into 4000 euros gross/month which becomes less than 3000 after tax (now consider paying back 28K for the type rating, probably even more for their basic training, the rent, the bills, the car park, the uniform,some sort of health insurance, a little loss of license insurance, the car,the hotel when going to the sim or when sent out of base....let alone supporting a family).
-Let's say one manages to survive (most do, FR is full of nice guys/girls who love their jobs and give it all they have to succeed) and after some years he gets his command upgrade (bonded) just to find himself on a lower payscale than the other captains for 1 year and also sent away to another base after say 3 or 4 years he had settled into the one he was operating from
Captains:
-generally arrive from other airlines (for many different reasons) with lots of experience and already typed.
-they usually get asked their preferred base but only a handful get it, the rest are sent far from home in one of the many bases to find out that they don't even have a 5/4 roster but a 5/3 like the new italian bases.
-many end up opting for a floating BRK contract and start living like gypsies (organizing their own travels/hotels/meals/transoptation) hoping that way to be able to get home more often while waiting to be finally transferred to their base of choice.
-some wait for years and are told the waiting list for their specific base is very long, just to find out for instance that a newly upgraded Captain has just been sent there
-they don't have the same problem as the F/O's with low flying hours because they easily max out the yearly limits (900 hours) and make around 130K gross which equals 6800 euros net/month (excluding car park,uniform,hotels,car,bills,mortgage,family,health insurance,loss of licence etc etc)
Both Capt's and F/O's have either a FR contract that can vary in T&C's from base to base or a BRK 5 years renewable contract that could be terminated at any time.
I am very aware of the fact that what I wrote can for some be an exaggeration but for others could also sound quite mild too; this is just to let people know that as there are people fat and happy with what they have in EMA like our colleague ATS there are also many people all across the network who are unhappy enough to look for CHANGE.
Especially when they are fully aware they are working for the most successful airline around.
It would take very little effort to make this company one of the best places to work for, the BALPA campaign is just a way to voice our concerns and hopefully the starting point of a new era in which we will be finally able to sit down with the bosses and talk both about financial growth and the well being of those who make that growth possible.
Will it be a tough game?Yes it will probably be, but it's worth trying because the alternative is the status quo.
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Oh dear I'm not sure if you get it do you? 
Misleading pilots and back peddling from 10% as an argument to try and influence people will NOT get that person a get out of jail free card.
The mental and psychological reality of this act of untruth is REAL and will be burned in all pilots heads. The person involved engaged in an act of deceit to try to obtain a personal agenda which will not escape people easily.
NO not if the ballot is free, fair and confidential and free from intimidation. That's basic voting and balloting procedures and the core of what democracy is. Was this email and list obtained a valid version of democracy universally acknowledged?
I will supply the whole act so individuals can not simply select quotes and or parts while mixing in opinion for all to see:
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)
Employment Relations Act 1999 (c. 26)
Paragraph 20 to 22 is what Shady refers to in Schedule A1 of the act in his last post which we will analyse later on. I ask all to read for themselves if again we are going to get selective quotes from the schedule and act combined with MISREPRESNTATION and WRONG OPNION.
So what is the 10% test? Here it is in Schedule A1 in reference to APPLICATION ONLY for recognition, of the act in paragraph 14
part 4 and 5:
At this point the CAC has satisfied that the proposed bargaining unit is passed the 10% test so can proceed with the "Application" for statuary recognition. NOT to grant it.. 
Important difference.
So to imply in an email that 10% of WORKERS who where MEMBERS were going to lead to full recognition by declaration to the CAC is WRONG. You see the central argument fails straight away at this conjecture.
This is by selectively quoting what is act, statute and law and mixing it with opinion which should be left to experienced professionals. Either the person doesn't understand the act in the first place or he does but is trying to portray it in a manner which benefits his own arguments. I don't think anybody has a problem with opinion but they do have a problem with MISREPRESENTED FACTS and EVIDENCE. Either innocently or with a more DECIETFUL alternative MOTIVE?
Here is part of the email in question and notice how it is act mixed with WRONG OPINION used to try and influence pilots in the base;
"In a nutshell" it is NOT the current legislation or statute far from it. The link from the 10% test for application to the CAC to "imposing" recognition is tenable and quite obvious. It is at least disgusting and something the less guided of people, not so aware of the legislation should be made aware of.
Quite understandably why should pilots be aware of the act as stands as in the end they are PROFESSIONAL PILOTS not legal eagles?
Examining paragraph 20 and 22 of Schedule A1, there is very interesting reading and from paragraph 20 onwards up to and including paragraph 29.
So what does this mean? In paragraph 22 as above, if you satisfy part 1 a and b then it leads to a declaration as in part 2, as said and has been said previously in past posts.
In part 3 it says that a ballot MUST be called if 1 a and b are not satisfied thus not leading to a declaration as in part 2. So part 3 is now in action as the conditions in part 4 are now prevalent. Slims NEW argument was that;
He/she is missing the point that they DO. Because a ballot is called as under part 3 of paragraph 22 if conditions in part 4 are evident. In other words it goes to a ballot and it is ALL WORKERS of the bargaining unit that will take a free, fair ballot and free from intimidation. In other words Democracy and Majority rule.
I do apologise for having to go through this in such detail but it is vitally important that the facts do stand. People understand how complicated this is and why you should when analysing such law undertake professional opinion as to the requirements for recognition and what it involves.
Either the person has been undertaking an act of armchair solicitor or he has been asked to engage in this email with management obtaining the information and passing it on for the person to so present which is as stated many times before MISLEADING and UNTRUTHFUL. Another question is where or why this individual tried to obtain this MISLEADING information and for what motivation?
In light of the current evidence presented I ask would you buy double glazing from this man?
Would you send him round to your pensioner parents to sell shares or wares to part with their hard earned money? It is in the same realms and activity of what "Boiler Room" activity is to the stock market.
Cheep and salesman like and why all pilots in Ryanair REQUIRE professional representation.
BALPA for professionals for a long term future or live by LIES, UNTRUTHS and MISREPRESENTATION?
Your choice if colleagues or management allow you that choice if not denying you a vote?
Misleading pilots and back peddling from 10% as an argument to try and influence people will NOT get that person a get out of jail free card.
The mental and psychological reality of this act of untruth is REAL and will be burned in all pilots heads. The person involved engaged in an act of deceit to try to obtain a personal agenda which will not escape people easily.
Getting people to vote on their future is intimidation?
I will supply the whole act so individuals can not simply select quotes and or parts while mixing in opinion for all to see:
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)
Employment Relations Act 1999 (c. 26)
Paragraph 20 to 22 is what Shady refers to in Schedule A1 of the act in his last post which we will analyse later on. I ask all to read for themselves if again we are going to get selective quotes from the schedule and act combined with MISREPRESNTATION and WRONG OPNION.
So what is the 10% test? Here it is in Schedule A1 in reference to APPLICATION ONLY for recognition, of the act in paragraph 14
part 4 and 5:
(4) Within the acceptance period the CAC must decide, with regard to each relevant application, whether the 10 per cent test is satisfied.
(5) The 10 per cent test is satisfied if members of the union (or unions) constitute at least 10 per cent of the workers constituting the relevant bargaining unit.
(5) The 10 per cent test is satisfied if members of the union (or unions) constitute at least 10 per cent of the workers constituting the relevant bargaining unit.
Important difference.So to imply in an email that 10% of WORKERS who where MEMBERS were going to lead to full recognition by declaration to the CAC is WRONG. You see the central argument fails straight away at this conjecture.
This is by selectively quoting what is act, statute and law and mixing it with opinion which should be left to experienced professionals. Either the person doesn't understand the act in the first place or he does but is trying to portray it in a manner which benefits his own arguments. I don't think anybody has a problem with opinion but they do have a problem with MISREPRESENTED FACTS and EVIDENCE. Either innocently or with a more DECIETFUL alternative MOTIVE?
Here is part of the email in question and notice how it is act mixed with WRONG OPINION used to try and influence pilots in the base;
At this stage the union applies to the Central Arbitration Committee (CAC ) at the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (ACAS) for statutory recognition. The CAC then decides if the application is relevant and applies certain tests. In certain circumstances one of the tests is the 10 per cent test i.e do 10 per cent of the workers in the proposed bargaining unit (EMA pilots) belong to the union.
Taking due account of the circumstances, the CAC can then impose recognition and determine the means and scope of how collective bargaining will be implemented. Whether or not you are a member of BALPA, IALPA, IPA or any other union a successful application by BALPA will lock you in to them bargaining on your behalf.
The employer may only apply for derecognition if 21 or fewer workers are employed for a period of 13 weeks or more.
In a nutshell, that is the current legislation.
Taking due account of the circumstances, the CAC can then impose recognition and determine the means and scope of how collective bargaining will be implemented. Whether or not you are a member of BALPA, IALPA, IPA or any other union a successful application by BALPA will lock you in to them bargaining on your behalf.
The employer may only apply for derecognition if 21 or fewer workers are employed for a period of 13 weeks or more.
In a nutshell, that is the current legislation.
Quite understandably why should pilots be aware of the act as stands as in the end they are PROFESSIONAL PILOTS not legal eagles?
Examining paragraph 20 and 22 of Schedule A1, there is very interesting reading and from paragraph 20 onwards up to and including paragraph 29.
22 (1) This paragraph applies if—
(a) the CAC proceeds with an application in accordance with paragraph 20 or 21, and
(b) the CAC is satisfied that a majority of the workers constituting the bargaining unit are members of the union (or unions).
(2) The CAC must issue a declaration that the union is (or unions are) recognised as entitled to conduct collective bargaining on behalf of the workers constituting the bargaining unit.
(3) But if any of the three qualifying conditions is fulfilled, instead of issuing a declaration under sub-paragraph (2) the CAC must give notice to the parties that it intends to arrange for the holding of a secret ballot in which the workers constituting the bargaining unit are asked whether they want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
(4) These are the three qualifying conditions—
(a) the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;
(b) a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit inform the CAC that they do not want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf;
(c) membership evidence is produced which leads the CAC to conclude that there are doubts whether a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
(5) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)(c) membership evidence is—
(a) evidence about the circumstances in which union members became members;
(b) evidence about the length of time for which union members have been members, in a case where the CAC is satisfied that such evidence should be taken into account.
(a) the CAC proceeds with an application in accordance with paragraph 20 or 21, and
(b) the CAC is satisfied that a majority of the workers constituting the bargaining unit are members of the union (or unions).
(2) The CAC must issue a declaration that the union is (or unions are) recognised as entitled to conduct collective bargaining on behalf of the workers constituting the bargaining unit.
(3) But if any of the three qualifying conditions is fulfilled, instead of issuing a declaration under sub-paragraph (2) the CAC must give notice to the parties that it intends to arrange for the holding of a secret ballot in which the workers constituting the bargaining unit are asked whether they want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
(4) These are the three qualifying conditions—
(a) the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;
(b) a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit inform the CAC that they do not want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf;
(c) membership evidence is produced which leads the CAC to conclude that there are doubts whether a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
(5) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)(c) membership evidence is—
(a) evidence about the circumstances in which union members became members;
(b) evidence about the length of time for which union members have been members, in a case where the CAC is satisfied that such evidence should be taken into account.
In part 3 it says that a ballot MUST be called if 1 a and b are not satisfied thus not leading to a declaration as in part 2. So part 3 is now in action as the conditions in part 4 are now prevalent. Slims NEW argument was that;
the wishes of the non union workers don't come into the equation here
I do apologise for having to go through this in such detail but it is vitally important that the facts do stand. People understand how complicated this is and why you should when analysing such law undertake professional opinion as to the requirements for recognition and what it involves.
Either the person has been undertaking an act of armchair solicitor or he has been asked to engage in this email with management obtaining the information and passing it on for the person to so present which is as stated many times before MISLEADING and UNTRUTHFUL. Another question is where or why this individual tried to obtain this MISLEADING information and for what motivation?
In light of the current evidence presented I ask would you buy double glazing from this man?
Would you send him round to your pensioner parents to sell shares or wares to part with their hard earned money? It is in the same realms and activity of what "Boiler Room" activity is to the stock market. Cheep and salesman like and why all pilots in Ryanair REQUIRE professional representation.
BALPA for professionals for a long term future or live by LIES, UNTRUTHS and MISREPRESENTATION?
Your choice if colleagues or management allow you that choice if not denying you a vote?
Last edited by alibaba; 4th Jul 2009 at 17:18. Reason: Grammar
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danny, very good post. One mistake though: cadets don't pay 28K no more, no no.. it's 33K! Do we actually know where that money goes? Some will end up in RYR plc, but who owns this company called East Midlands Training Ltd? Sorry, off topic a little!
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intimidation
I Have just recieved an intimidatory post from abusing the sky,presumably with the cooperation of her partner slim shady.i will refer it to the moderators.seems that there is no levels to which mol and his union busting management will stoop to achieve continued abuse of its workforce.
i suppose these tactics are no surprise when i think back to the time of the last union recognition vote and during our type rating we were approached by dob and told our contracts were to be back dated by some months and that we would be back paid.there was one small matter.we all had to vote against the ongoing balpa recognition campaign although we were not entitled to vote as we were not yet full time employees in the uk.sad to say,most
ignorants did vote against,because they trusted their employer and the campaign was defeated.the ironic thing is that our pay was never back dated and most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair.
i suppose these tactics are no surprise when i think back to the time of the last union recognition vote and during our type rating we were approached by dob and told our contracts were to be back dated by some months and that we would be back paid.there was one small matter.we all had to vote against the ongoing balpa recognition campaign although we were not entitled to vote as we were not yet full time employees in the uk.sad to say,most
ignorants did vote against,because they trusted their employer and the campaign was defeated.the ironic thing is that our pay was never back dated and most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair.
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repa, if:
this is scary and intimidating, then i don't know what to say.... I'm evil, pure evil i tell ya!
MWA HA HA HA HA
Abusing_the_sky
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Re: acheiving balpa recognition
Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
you are doing great.keep up the good work.
Keep wishing, it ain't gonna happen and you know it.
Regards,
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Re: acheiving balpa recognition
Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
you are doing great.keep up the good work.
Keep wishing, it ain't gonna happen and you know it.
Regards,
MWA HA HA HA HA
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Grim, "most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair"
As i pointed out earlier - why have you not left my friend?
After 5 years of moaning on here about how bad Ryanair is, i just cant get my head around why anyone, if so unhappy at their place of work, wouldn't just leave? I mean I can understand a year, maybe 2 but 5 years of constant dislike for your job/company...are you sure your not hiding something from us..!?
Stop trying to be a martyr.
As i pointed out earlier - why have you not left my friend?
After 5 years of moaning on here about how bad Ryanair is, i just cant get my head around why anyone, if so unhappy at their place of work, wouldn't just leave? I mean I can understand a year, maybe 2 but 5 years of constant dislike for your job/company...are you sure your not hiding something from us..!?
Stop trying to be a martyr.
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Is it actuly 33K Euro just for the type rating or is it 33K including factoring in things like accomidation and uniforms and stuff?
friend of mine has a place offered and I am so far advising him to look else where with the new contracts that are in place and costings, does not seem worht it to me anymore! thank god I joined when the Euro was 1.30 and the type a lot cheaper
friend of mine has a place offered and I am so far advising him to look else where with the new contracts that are in place and costings, does not seem worht it to me anymore! thank god I joined when the Euro was 1.30 and the type a lot cheaper
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why have you not left my friend?
1- the aim is not to loose those who dislike something but it is to change things so that more people can be a little happier and not only a few ones.
2- the way the business is run by FR also influences other businesses and some of them have also gone bust because of fierce competition by FR.
Competition is good of course, but only if fair.
And FR is often not fair at all in the way they compete and putting others out of business in such a way also restricts the chances one would have to jump ship; the whole picture has something sick to it and if you don't see it then you gotta be blind.
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Abusing the sky,
I hate to tell you, but you and your nearest and dearest Slim are the "model employees" that have allowed Ryanair to do what they do best, I.E reduce their costs on YOUR back. In real terms earnings in Ryanair dropped 40 yes FOUR ZERO / FORTY % in the last 10 years (prior to the most recent "negotiations") due to the total myopia /I'm allright Jack attitude displayed so eloquently here by your good selves, that inflicts so many of your colleagues.
You don't even have the imagination to see how fragile indeed is your current cosy "comfort zone".
NEMA offers MOL a bum deal . . . . GoodBye EMA
Abusing or Slim step out of line . . . . Goodbye & Thanks (probably without the thanks) to one or both.
Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom, but if earnings can be cut @ 4% a year for the last 10 very profitable (for Ryanair
) years, when exactly will be a good time ? or you prefer to earn 40% less in another 10 years time ?
Wake up and smell the coffee (assuming you remembered to put it in your flight bag)
BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)
I hate to tell you, but you and your nearest and dearest Slim are the "model employees" that have allowed Ryanair to do what they do best, I.E reduce their costs on YOUR back. In real terms earnings in Ryanair dropped 40 yes FOUR ZERO / FORTY % in the last 10 years (prior to the most recent "negotiations") due to the total myopia /I'm allright Jack attitude displayed so eloquently here by your good selves, that inflicts so many of your colleagues.
You don't even have the imagination to see how fragile indeed is your current cosy "comfort zone".
NEMA offers MOL a bum deal . . . . GoodBye EMA
Abusing or Slim step out of line . . . . Goodbye & Thanks (probably without the thanks) to one or both.
Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom, but if earnings can be cut @ 4% a year for the last 10 very profitable (for Ryanair
) years, when exactly will be a good time ? or you prefer to earn 40% less in another 10 years time ?Wake up and smell the coffee (assuming you remembered to put it in your flight bag)
BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)
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captainplaystation,
Thank you very much for your advice but you may keep it, i don't need it.
You might want to re read my posts my dear and see that's exactly what i'm saying to those selfish ones: it's alright if you get the BALPA recognition you so want, don't care about what's going to happen to the other colleagues, be them CC, engineers and so on.
You don't entirely disagree... at least we're on the same level on something.
If you must know i am in days off and with all due respect, what i do in days off is none of your business.
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
Thank you very much for your advice but you may keep it, i don't need it.
Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom,
You don't entirely disagree... at least we're on the same level on something.
BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
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Zero, still off topic (or is it?), but to answer your q?, 33K is the amount of the type rating bill, nothing else has been included in that. I have seen the new "contracts" (BRK, the DIY Ltd accounting scam) and it is (of course) less money than last year!
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East Midlands says NO to BLAPA!
Whilst things are certainly heating up next to the EDF power station at West Burton, I think it's time everyone calmed down a bit.
The thing I can tell you about BLAPA, as an ardent observer of their cack-handed antics over the years, is that when sufficiently motivated, they fight dirty. Very dirty, in fact, as Mr. and Mrs. Shady and myself can tell you with certainly. Threatening emails are just the start of it. Measure that against what the Dim Reaper had to say about BLAPA in his petulant, little-boy-who-didn’t-get-his-own-way posting from the REPA website not so long ago, and one is left with compelling conclusions as to what really motivates their aggressive tactics now. Emphasis is mine.
The above quoted post by the Dim Reaper demonstrates that BLAPA was getting right up his nostril because, shockingly, they were taking his money and not doing anything for it. How dreadful! How unheard of! How BLAPA.
As regular readers will no doubt know, Dim Reaper is not the sharpest tool in the Ryanair shed, but a tool nonetheless. He's prone to bouts of delightfully unrestrained grumpiness, and is possessed of the sort of charm and wit usually found in dockside pubs around midnight. Nevertheless, he does provide a useful lightning rod with which to test the mettle of BLAPA.
Nowadays, of course, BLAPA have been thrust into action, but not because they give a fiddlers about the Dim Reaper, or any other Ryanair pilot for that matter, but rather, because they're broke as a badger and desperately need the funds of Ryanair pilot memberships in order to survive. Hence the stony silence that came with the suggestion that they should represent us for free as a special joining bonus for new members. Heck, even I would sign up for that deal.
Some folks think it reasonable to conclude that BLAPA will support you if ever you get into strife professionally. Demonstrably wrong, I'm afraid, and documented to the heavens too. BLAPA cast a cold eye over each case on its merits whenever some miscreant pilot comes crying to them, and will only fight the fights that satisfy their selection criteria. First, that they have a better than two thirds chance of winning, and second, that the win will provide them with the maximum limelight possible thereby achieving, thirdly, an increase their revenues. Ask an ex-Danair pilot what they think of BLAPA, or a GSS first officer, or find out just why it is that Slim and I are so vocal in our opposition to this devious, cancerous organization of malicious dimwits, and you will quickly learn, as we have, that BLAPA are all dick and no trouser.
Other folk may have swallowed the bull**** that their lives lack dignity and respect, and who wouldn't want that, right? The trouble is that BLAPA don't own the exclusive distribution rights to those particular commodities. Dignity and Respect come from within. For those that think you lack it, take a close look in the mirror. You'll find it there soon enough.
On June 23rd, ten(!) identical letters from the head Scotsman of BLAPA were received at our London office. In our reply, the head of the personnel section accurately recorded the rather telling observation that BLAPA spend much more on Montrachet and Lobster dinners for their own henchmen, than they do on fighting the legal battles of pilots they're supposed to represent, whenever they get into trouble. When you crunch the numbers, this means that BLAPA are at least 2.49 times more interested in using your membership fees to fund their champagne socialist lifestyles and final salary pension scheme, than they are in supporting the pilots they claim to represent! Value for money you think? I don’t.
Moreover, I can assure you, dear colleagues, that the battle lines if drawn, will have terrible consequences. This is not a threat, as BLAPA would have you believe, but rather, I know full well the nature of the dog we have in the fight, and can assure you that he will take no prisoners in demonstrating the strength of his will and the depth of his resolve in this matter.
Say, for the sake of argument, that one of the 'L' bases in the UK were to be closed as a business decision. Not an unlikely scenario in the current economic climate, especially as winter draws near, and a winter like no other before it. Say, hypothetically, that all the permanent employees in those bases were to become surplus to requirements and discharged. Pilots, flight attendants, engineers, ground staff, handling agents and all. Routes would still be served at those bases, but hundreds of pilots would be on the dole queue with no other airlines recruiting.
The BLAPA apologists would have you believe this is a price worth paying in the long run, and that a little pain is worthwhile in the broader scheme of things. They will salute you for your courage in taking a bullet for the regiment, they will praise your bravery on high for standing up to the tyrant Mandrake of Mullingar, but what they will NOT do, is support you financially, fraternally or professionally, in any way at all. The money will disappear from your bank account, regular as clockwork, the Montrachet and Château Latour will continue to flow at BLAPA HQ, and you, my dear colleagues, will still be unemployed, holding you dicks, with nothing but BLAPA stickers as a memento to their uselessness.
I can appear here ad nauseam (tr. to sickness) pointing out that BLAPA are the bunch of gutless cowards and purveyors of third-world bull**** that I know them to be. I can point out endless examples of their deception, threats, outright lies and highly selective affections that define them, but in the final analysis it all boils down to this. Are you, the professional Ryanair pilot, prepared to have your lives changed forever by a devious, self-aggrandising organisation that will result in base closures, wholesale dismissals and a demonstration of will that will shock you to your core?
It isn't BLAPA recognition that concerns me, since it’s rather like being savaged by a three-legged, gold-toothed rat, but rather, it is the consequences of them knocking at the door that I fear, and not for myself but for my colleagues yet to learn the truth about BLAPA. Ladies and gentlemen, we have nothing to gain from them, and everything to lose.
The thing I can tell you about BLAPA, as an ardent observer of their cack-handed antics over the years, is that when sufficiently motivated, they fight dirty. Very dirty, in fact, as Mr. and Mrs. Shady and myself can tell you with certainly. Threatening emails are just the start of it. Measure that against what the Dim Reaper had to say about BLAPA in his petulant, little-boy-who-didn’t-get-his-own-way posting from the REPA website not so long ago, and one is left with compelling conclusions as to what really motivates their aggressive tactics now. Emphasis is mine.
all due respect but i have heard this argument,over and over.the truth is nobody knows anything and we are not moving forward,quite the contrary.we continue to lose good guys to other airlines.a lot happening behind the scenes has been going on for a long time now and we are no nearer to putting the most basic of foundations in place.i would love to believe that we are making progress but in the absence of evidence,i have now to assume that we are not going anywhere.when balpa promise me a recognition campaign and continue to take my money.i would be a fool to continue to believe that they will ever do any proactive.sitting in an office does not cut it for me anymore.when the balpa moderator reads this,let he be under no illusion,i will lead a mass resignation from balpa in the coming months.they are simply not doing anywhere near enough.before i hear about calling them or visiting their office.it has all been done to no avail.they are the ones who should be calling us.balpa like ryanair may assume we are fools,that will cost them!!!
As regular readers will no doubt know, Dim Reaper is not the sharpest tool in the Ryanair shed, but a tool nonetheless. He's prone to bouts of delightfully unrestrained grumpiness, and is possessed of the sort of charm and wit usually found in dockside pubs around midnight. Nevertheless, he does provide a useful lightning rod with which to test the mettle of BLAPA.
Nowadays, of course, BLAPA have been thrust into action, but not because they give a fiddlers
about the Dim Reaper, or any other Ryanair pilot for that matter, but rather, because they're broke as a badger and desperately need the funds of Ryanair pilot memberships in order to survive. Hence the stony silence that came with the suggestion that they should represent us for free as a special joining bonus for new members. Heck, even I would sign up for that deal.Some folks think it reasonable to conclude that BLAPA will support you if ever you get into strife professionally. Demonstrably wrong, I'm afraid, and documented to the heavens too. BLAPA cast a cold eye over each case on its merits whenever some miscreant pilot comes crying to them, and will only fight the fights that satisfy their selection criteria. First, that they have a better than two thirds chance of winning, and second, that the win will provide them with the maximum limelight possible thereby achieving, thirdly, an increase their revenues. Ask an ex-Danair pilot what they think of BLAPA, or a GSS first officer, or find out just why it is that Slim and I are so vocal in our opposition to this devious, cancerous organization of malicious dimwits, and you will quickly learn, as we have, that BLAPA are all dick and no trouser.
Other folk may have swallowed the bull**** that their lives lack dignity and respect, and who wouldn't want that, right? The trouble is that BLAPA don't own the exclusive distribution rights to those particular commodities. Dignity and Respect come from within. For those that think you lack it, take a close look in the mirror. You'll find it there soon enough.
On June 23rd, ten(!) identical letters from the head Scotsman of BLAPA were received at our London office. In our reply, the head of the personnel section accurately recorded the rather telling observation that BLAPA spend much more on Montrachet and Lobster dinners for their own henchmen, than they do on fighting the legal battles of pilots they're supposed to represent, whenever they get into trouble. When you crunch the numbers, this means that BLAPA are at least 2.49 times more interested in using your membership fees to fund their champagne socialist lifestyles and final salary pension scheme, than they are in supporting the pilots they claim to represent! Value for money you think? I don’t.
Moreover, I can assure you, dear colleagues, that the battle lines if drawn, will have terrible consequences. This is not a threat, as BLAPA would have you believe, but rather, I know full well the nature of the dog we have in the fight, and can assure you that he will take no prisoners in demonstrating the strength of his will and the depth of his resolve in this matter.
Say, for the sake of argument, that one of the 'L' bases in the UK were to be closed as a business decision. Not an unlikely scenario in the current economic climate, especially as winter draws near, and a winter like no other before it. Say, hypothetically, that all the permanent employees in those bases were to become surplus to requirements and discharged. Pilots, flight attendants, engineers, ground staff, handling agents and all. Routes would still be served at those bases, but hundreds of pilots would be on the dole queue with no other airlines recruiting.
The BLAPA apologists would have you believe this is a price worth paying in the long run, and that a little pain is worthwhile in the broader scheme of things. They will salute you for your courage in taking a bullet for the regiment, they will praise your bravery on high for standing up to the tyrant Mandrake of Mullingar, but what they will NOT do, is support you financially, fraternally or professionally, in any way at all. The money will disappear from your bank account, regular as clockwork, the Montrachet and Château Latour will continue to flow at BLAPA HQ, and you, my dear colleagues, will still be unemployed, holding you dicks, with nothing but BLAPA stickers as a memento to their uselessness.
I can appear here ad nauseam (tr. to sickness) pointing out that BLAPA are the bunch of gutless cowards and purveyors of third-world bull**** that I know them to be. I can point out endless examples of their deception, threats, outright lies and highly selective affections that define them, but in the final analysis it all boils down to this. Are you, the professional Ryanair pilot, prepared to have your lives changed forever by a devious, self-aggrandising organisation that will result in base closures, wholesale dismissals and a demonstration of will that will shock you to your core?
It isn't BLAPA recognition that concerns me, since it’s rather like being savaged by a three-legged, gold-toothed rat, but rather, it is the consequences of them knocking at the door that I fear, and not for myself but for my colleagues yet to learn the truth about BLAPA. Ladies and gentlemen, we have nothing to gain from them, and everything to lose.
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If you must know i am in days off and with all due respect, what i do in days off is none of your business.
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
While you are enjoying happy off days in sunny EMA there are hundreds of pilots who are on unexpectedly allocated A/L, or on their month off maybe following a 40hrs flying month leaving them with 2000euros to spend in 60 days (you can imagine the kind of holiday you can afford) and I'm not gonna mention those (and they exist I can assure you) who had their 10 days A/L in a 20hrs flying month follwed by a month off leaving them virtually broke for 2 months with bills to pay and expected to enjoy their holidays????
There many things that should change in FR and those who pretend everything is ok and are afraid of their own shadows are definitely not helping the cause.
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danny,
We have written facts as we ( i.e me and you ) see them. We have repeated ourselves time and time again. Everyone came up with facts, figures, scenarios, own views.
This debate will take ages to come to an end. You have your opinion on the BALPA matter in discussion and i have mine. Neither of us is going to change it so i propose we wait and see what happens.
You're fighting for your cause, i fight for mine.
We have written facts as we ( i.e me and you ) see them. We have repeated ourselves time and time again. Everyone came up with facts, figures, scenarios, own views.
This debate will take ages to come to an end. You have your opinion on the BALPA matter in discussion and i have mine. Neither of us is going to change it so i propose we wait and see what happens.
You're fighting for your cause, i fight for mine.
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As an obvius outsider to the Ryanair situation, but a BALPA EZY member, reading this thread, I can see two very obvious points sticking out in the wind here.
Leo Hairy ****, obviously a management glove puppet, with someones hand up his ar$e working his mouth goes on about base closures and other threats based on "business" decisions. All airline management are the same at their sick little core and if just one of you believes that any airline management board would keep a non-profitable base open as some sort of a thank-you for not joining a union then you all deserve your fate with your rancid mouthed **** at the helm. If they are to close, the will close, the question for you is if my base closes who do I trust to try and look after my interests best? Whose interest do you think MOL has in his void where a heart should be?
Second thing that strikes me, clearly with all the tripe spouting from the management puppets on here about BALPA, along with the threats Ryanair are scared of BALPA recognition, if they were not, why all the effort to make you afraid of growing a spine? Why do you think that is, and don't look to Hairy tw@t face for an honest answer to that, you know fine well he has one intent, to undermine your efforts for recognition, again, why? If BALPA are no threat, why? If they are under no obligation other than to turn up to meetings with BALPA, why? If bases close and transfer lists freeze is that BALPA that imposes that? So WHY does BALPA recognition make base closures, transfer freezes and no promotions necessary? WHY?
Are BALPA perfect? No? Do BALPA charge a 1% of salary fee? Yes. Have they improved or retained lifestyle at EZY - Yes, without doubt, could they have done better? probably, would we be in a better place without them? Of course not.
Let MOL go run some 3rd world sweatshop making Nike running shows or the like, his talents are clearly what these places thrive on.
Best of luck to all the Ryanair guys, such bullying and intimidation from your management need not be tolerated in silence any more, you are all worth more than that, now have the courage and conviction to tell your dictators that and let battle commence, and a battle it will be, but if one single job is lost due to Union recognition, the that case will have to be proven in a court, and that IS a battle BALPA will fight and win.
As for BALPA only fighting the battles it can win, you will see that it fought and LOST a major battle with BA over open skies, but fight it did, until defeat was declared. Hairy Camel Tw@t will tell you that is why they need your subs to replace the cash spent on that fight, and at the sametime he will tell you that BALPA will only fight the fights it can win, either way don't expect a coherent response from those with O'Leary's fingers gripping their gentlemans' area!
Leo Hairy ****, obviously a management glove puppet, with someones hand up his ar$e working his mouth goes on about base closures and other threats based on "business" decisions. All airline management are the same at their sick little core and if just one of you believes that any airline management board would keep a non-profitable base open as some sort of a thank-you for not joining a union then you all deserve your fate with your rancid mouthed **** at the helm. If they are to close, the will close, the question for you is if my base closes who do I trust to try and look after my interests best? Whose interest do you think MOL has in his void where a heart should be?
Second thing that strikes me, clearly with all the tripe spouting from the management puppets on here about BALPA, along with the threats Ryanair are scared of BALPA recognition, if they were not, why all the effort to make you afraid of growing a spine? Why do you think that is, and don't look to Hairy tw@t face for an honest answer to that, you know fine well he has one intent, to undermine your efforts for recognition, again, why? If BALPA are no threat, why? If they are under no obligation other than to turn up to meetings with BALPA, why? If bases close and transfer lists freeze is that BALPA that imposes that? So WHY does BALPA recognition make base closures, transfer freezes and no promotions necessary? WHY?
Are BALPA perfect? No? Do BALPA charge a 1% of salary fee? Yes. Have they improved or retained lifestyle at EZY - Yes, without doubt, could they have done better? probably, would we be in a better place without them? Of course not.
Let MOL go run some 3rd world sweatshop making Nike running shows or the like, his talents are clearly what these places thrive on.
Best of luck to all the Ryanair guys, such bullying and intimidation from your management need not be tolerated in silence any more, you are all worth more than that, now have the courage and conviction to tell your dictators that and let battle commence, and a battle it will be, but if one single job is lost due to Union recognition, the that case will have to be proven in a court, and that IS a battle BALPA will fight and win.
As for BALPA only fighting the battles it can win, you will see that it fought and LOST a major battle with BA over open skies, but fight it did, until defeat was declared. Hairy Camel Tw@t will tell you that is why they need your subs to replace the cash spent on that fight, and at the sametime he will tell you that BALPA will only fight the fights it can win, either way don't expect a coherent response from those with O'Leary's fingers gripping their gentlemans' area!
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Hear Hear Lhc
Well done Leo: putting the sensible case forward as usual.
We don't need hotheads, banging their drums, tubs and tambourines from behind the safety of the mother's aprons, encouraging others to sacrifice themselves on the slopes of the hills at Wicklow.
We need a calm analysis of the situation: why would BALPA start a campaign when other companies are laying people off? Why not concentrate on helping them? Why step in to a battle unarmed? Why not respect the wishes of the workers ( alibaba, whether you and your BALPA masters like it or not, pilots are resigning the BALPA whip and voting - and prepared my friend, unlike you, to put their names to their views - overwhelmingly against recognition).
You can disagree with my views, Leo's views, Day dreamer, bonglebear...any one of us: what you can't argue with is the level of support that exists against BALPA.
The cries of the militants who spout off about "management puppets / stooges" perpetuate the ethos of Red Robbo and Scargill: look where that got British Leyland and the mining industry. Look what it did to the Miner's Union.
It is not a "them and us" situation; when Sabena went bust the management went too. When Laker and Dan Air went so did the managers; you really should look beyond the end of your noses.
We don't need hotheads, banging their drums, tubs and tambourines from behind the safety of the mother's aprons, encouraging others to sacrifice themselves on the slopes of the hills at Wicklow.
We need a calm analysis of the situation: why would BALPA start a campaign when other companies are laying people off? Why not concentrate on helping them? Why step in to a battle unarmed? Why not respect the wishes of the workers ( alibaba, whether you and your BALPA masters like it or not, pilots are resigning the BALPA whip and voting - and prepared my friend, unlike you, to put their names to their views - overwhelmingly against recognition).
You can disagree with my views, Leo's views, Day dreamer, bonglebear...any one of us: what you can't argue with is the level of support that exists against BALPA.
The cries of the militants who spout off about "management puppets / stooges" perpetuate the ethos of Red Robbo and Scargill: look where that got British Leyland and the mining industry. Look what it did to the Miner's Union.
It is not a "them and us" situation; when Sabena went bust the management went too. When Laker and Dan Air went so did the managers; you really should look beyond the end of your noses.
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You're fighting for your cause, i fight for mine.
There is a pilot union that we hope will help us in the process , there is a plan in place in order to start the recognition process, there has been an audit between FR pilots made by BALPA to understand our viewpoints and feelings for the company, many of us have their own ideas and suggestions on how to improve both the economics and the working standards...to cut a long story short many pilots are actively involved in this and hope that in a couple of years from now we could finally be over with this whole issue and work in a different environment than the one we aer in today.
Obviously for you everything is fine and I hope it will always be, unfortunately for many of us things are not fine at all.
But I agree with you, let's wait and see.
One thing though I would like to ask you: please look at FR not only as your shiny (in your opinion) EMA base but consider there are other 32 of them spread around; try to see the bigger picture instead of your little backyard.