Recognition Roulette
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exciting times? sounds like you're easily excited?
More unpaid leave announced to look forward to this winter, uk base and promotion freeze, threat of redundentcies......
All this and BALPA hasn't even been recognised yet. So what's to lose by voting eh?
More unpaid leave announced to look forward to this winter, uk base and promotion freeze, threat of redundentcies......
All this and BALPA hasn't even been recognised yet. So what's to lose by voting eh?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Desperate they are.. and crapping themselves! They have resolved to even below their lowest, I have never seen it so disgusting! They are in a proper panic mode now! It is down to proper bullying, open intimidation, threatening you with your job, threatening your livelihood.. base freeze and job losses. Let's pretend we ignore that it is illegal to start with. The ones who have been here long enough know how long base freezes last for! The de-icing usually follows within 3 weeks.. so will the working days off! Suckers!
I though we were still to receive 40 of those -800's before the end of the year, train 200 cadets, 60 direct entries... oh dear, Molly has messed up his figures again! What a joke.
Gentlemen, time to keep a cool head, support BALPA, this is what we are fighting for - proper and professional representation to stop this management making unilateral decision without any consultation, without any respect for your job or your freedom of speech and to stop this constant intimidation. Enough is enough, we will stop this!
Think about it, after our last quarterly losses, the management could have implemented the loss of our allowance money, but they haven't... this has been achieved with just the threat of BALPA, imagine how much more we will be able gain with representation.
I though we were still to receive 40 of those -800's before the end of the year, train 200 cadets, 60 direct entries... oh dear, Molly has messed up his figures again! What a joke.
Gentlemen, time to keep a cool head, support BALPA, this is what we are fighting for - proper and professional representation to stop this management making unilateral decision without any consultation, without any respect for your job or your freedom of speech and to stop this constant intimidation. Enough is enough, we will stop this!
Think about it, after our last quarterly losses, the management could have implemented the loss of our allowance money, but they haven't... this has been achieved with just the threat of BALPA, imagine how much more we will be able gain with representation.
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If it wasn't for BALPA we would all be paying for our type-ratings, and Ryan Air pilots would be paying for just about everything except the fuel. Wait a minute.... Good old BALPA. In the last 2 companies that I have worked for BALPA have agreed nothing with the company. 'Negotiations' have broken down on just about every occasion, and the company has made it's own decision. BALPA are a self serving waste of money. I refused to have anything to do with them years ago.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Firestorm,
If you end up being disciplined, unfairly dismissed or selected for redundancy and you decide to go to an industrial tribunal, as a non union individual are you happy to represent yourself then ? Happy to pay your legal costs (and possibly the other side's !) if you lose ?
Got any employment law or taxation issues ? Who do you call ? Are you going to negotiate directly with the tax authorities for your allowances ?
Pray tell ......
If you end up being disciplined, unfairly dismissed or selected for redundancy and you decide to go to an industrial tribunal, as a non union individual are you happy to represent yourself then ? Happy to pay your legal costs (and possibly the other side's !) if you lose ?
Got any employment law or taxation issues ? Who do you call ? Are you going to negotiate directly with the tax authorities for your allowances ?
Pray tell ......
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Firestorm
That is a shame that that is your experience of Balpa. Mine is very different. Our company has always been well supported by hard working, dedicated Company Council's that work with the support of Balpa. They have always believed in working with the company management to negotiate and resolve issues either facing the company or its employees. They have negotiated pay rises well in excess of other groups within the company (due to their lack of representation), which means that my membership is now paying for itself and more (don't forget the tax relief).
There are people out there who have had bad experiences in the past, all you have to do is speak to some ex Dan Air bods, who were shafted by Balpa, but this was a long time ago and happened when Balpa was more more supportive of BA pilots (this is no longer the case).
Good luck to you all (if its what you want).
That is a shame that that is your experience of Balpa. Mine is very different. Our company has always been well supported by hard working, dedicated Company Council's that work with the support of Balpa. They have always believed in working with the company management to negotiate and resolve issues either facing the company or its employees. They have negotiated pay rises well in excess of other groups within the company (due to their lack of representation), which means that my membership is now paying for itself and more (don't forget the tax relief).
There are people out there who have had bad experiences in the past, all you have to do is speak to some ex Dan Air bods, who were shafted by Balpa, but this was a long time ago and happened when Balpa was more more supportive of BA pilots (this is no longer the case).
Good luck to you all (if its what you want).
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Adolf,
My post was simply based upon my personal experience. For me and my colleagues BALPA did nothing at all and showed a remarkable lack of interest and understanding. When we were all made redundant the T&G presence in the shut down discussions secured us a redundancy pay-off of 18 months salary plus extras, even though I'm a public school, middle class affluent pilot..................
Its always best to know what your talking about prior to putting the boot in to a fellow pruner
My post was simply based upon my personal experience. For me and my colleagues BALPA did nothing at all and showed a remarkable lack of interest and understanding. When we were all made redundant the T&G presence in the shut down discussions secured us a redundancy pay-off of 18 months salary plus extras, even though I'm a public school, middle class affluent pilot..................
Its always best to know what your talking about prior to putting the boot in to a fellow pruner
Join Date: Jan 2001
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This is a Joint Campaign for Ryanair Pilots and Cabin Crew. The T&G is taking on Cabin Crew members and Pilots will join BALPA as they are the specialist union for Pilots. BALPA and the T&G are working together and this is the best situation that fits for all employees.
As simple as that as both organisations are working together for all Ryanair employees. BALPA = Pilots. T&G = Cabin Crew in Ryanair or any of the poxy contract agencies.
As simple as that as both organisations are working together for all Ryanair employees. BALPA = Pilots. T&G = Cabin Crew in Ryanair or any of the poxy contract agencies.
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As someone who endured the whole pathetic mess that was BAs attempt to establish itself with BA Connect etc...as a regional force to be reckoned with, let me give a word of advice about the effectivness of Balpa.
Notwithstanding base closures, redundancy, arbitrary dictats and progressive erosion of such little terms and conditions that we had Balpa was consistently totaly useless. They are under resourced in terms of both competent staff and money and when it came down to supporting an individual at an industrial Tribunal or with personal issues I know of many occasions when they just turned their backs.
I come to this view having once been a passionate supporter and believer in Balpa and represented colleagues on our company council.
Make no mistake the gaining of recognition for Ryanair would be seen as a major coup for the General Secretary and of course a most welcome infusion of desperately needed funds.......
In terms of benefit to individual members........forget it. I can think of at least one major carrier who has recognition but the CEO as good as ignores Balpa who have thereby become irrelevant to whatever plan he chooses to enact.
Those of you championing the cause at RA are I am afraid on a hiding to nothing. I wish for your sakes it was otherwise........but that is the reality.
Notwithstanding base closures, redundancy, arbitrary dictats and progressive erosion of such little terms and conditions that we had Balpa was consistently totaly useless. They are under resourced in terms of both competent staff and money and when it came down to supporting an individual at an industrial Tribunal or with personal issues I know of many occasions when they just turned their backs.
I come to this view having once been a passionate supporter and believer in Balpa and represented colleagues on our company council.
Make no mistake the gaining of recognition for Ryanair would be seen as a major coup for the General Secretary and of course a most welcome infusion of desperately needed funds.......
In terms of benefit to individual members........forget it. I can think of at least one major carrier who has recognition but the CEO as good as ignores Balpa who have thereby become irrelevant to whatever plan he chooses to enact.
Those of you championing the cause at RA are I am afraid on a hiding to nothing. I wish for your sakes it was otherwise........but that is the reality.
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Which CEO would that be Tim?? Which company?
If BALPA wasn't effective or was not seen as a threat to the bottom line with Ryanair management by protecting pilots terms and conditions. Why would Ryanair management protest so much???
Do you think management are trying to protect Ryanair Pilots from BALPA? BALPA is the pilots that is what you don't seem to grasp.
Negotiations can only go as far as Pilots in that company and represented by BALPA are willing to go. So it is the Pilots who have the power in that it is up to them to go as far as they want.
Eluding to whether you think the organisation is toothless? I would say that BALPA represents well over 75% of all the fixed wing pilots and helicopter aircrew based in the UK - as well as many working overseas. We have a membership of over 10,000 professional flight crew, working in companies large and small. Most of these Pilots would disagree with you. People might have issues as all members of an organisation do. But if the choice is between BALPA protecting my intrests and my profession or Ryanair management or other airline management hell bent on breaking our profession? I know which one I would choose.
Thanks for your input though!
If BALPA wasn't effective or was not seen as a threat to the bottom line with Ryanair management by protecting pilots terms and conditions. Why would Ryanair management protest so much???
Do you think management are trying to protect Ryanair Pilots from BALPA?
BALPA is the pilots that is what you don't seem to grasp.Negotiations can only go as far as Pilots in that company and represented by BALPA are willing to go. So it is the Pilots who have the power in that it is up to them to go as far as they want.
Eluding to whether you think the organisation is toothless? I would say that BALPA represents well over 75% of all the fixed wing pilots and helicopter aircrew based in the UK - as well as many working overseas. We have a membership of over 10,000 professional flight crew, working in companies large and small. Most of these Pilots would disagree with you. People might have issues as all members of an organisation do. But if the choice is between BALPA protecting my intrests and my profession or Ryanair management or other airline management hell bent on breaking our profession? I know which one I would choose.
Thanks for your input though!
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stress free et al,
All you boys rubbishing BALPA just don't get it, do you? You all, without exception, refer to BALPA as some distinct entity which failed to save your
ar5es in your hour of need. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.
BALPA is an association which can only serve to help pilots who have some degree of resolve to act in unison to protect their mutual interests. Without a reasonable number of pilots willing to stand up for themselves it really doesn't matter whether you have BALPA, the UN or Rambo on your side.
BALPA is not going to sort out the Ryanair problem - BUT it can act as a focus for Ryanair pilots to act for themselves.
All you boys rubbishing BALPA just don't get it, do you? You all, without exception, refer to BALPA as some distinct entity which failed to save your
ar5es in your hour of need. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.
BALPA is an association which can only serve to help pilots who have some degree of resolve to act in unison to protect their mutual interests. Without a reasonable number of pilots willing to stand up for themselves it really doesn't matter whether you have BALPA, the UN or Rambo on your side.
BALPA is not going to sort out the Ryanair problem - BUT it can act as a focus for Ryanair pilots to act for themselves.
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Adolf,
Quote - "BALPA is not going to sort out the Ryanair problem - BUT it can act as a focus for Ryanair pilots to act for themselves"
And so can other organisations, all I'm saying is that there is more than one choice and from my experience BALPA were a waste of time and money. Call that a 'fundamental misunderstanding' if you like but the facts speak for themselves.............so I do get it. Been there and got the T shirt
Much talk has gone on about how great BALPA are with legal protection etc., maybe its true but try a major national organisation like the T&G and the you'll see what resources are available, they make BALPA look like boy scouts.
Pay BALPA if you want, I'm no recruiting sargeant for the T&G but for the record I'd never give BALPA a penny more of my income.
Quote - "BALPA is not going to sort out the Ryanair problem - BUT it can act as a focus for Ryanair pilots to act for themselves"
And so can other organisations, all I'm saying is that there is more than one choice and from my experience BALPA were a waste of time and money. Call that a 'fundamental misunderstanding' if you like but the facts speak for themselves.............so I do get it. Been there and got the T shirt
Much talk has gone on about how great BALPA are with legal protection etc., maybe its true but try a major national organisation like the T&G and the you'll see what resources are available, they make BALPA look like boy scouts.
Pay BALPA if you want, I'm no recruiting sargeant for the T&G but for the record I'd never give BALPA a penny more of my income.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Tinytim,
at the risk of repeating myself :-
at the risk of repeating myself :-
If you end up being disciplined, unfairly dismissed or selected for redundancy and you decide to go to an industrial tribunal, as a non union individual are you happy to represent yourself then ? Happy to pay your legal costs (and possibly the other side's !) if you lose ?
Got any employment law or taxation issues ? Who do you call ? Are you going to negotiate directly with the tax authorities for your allowances ?
Pray tell ......
Got any employment law or taxation issues ? Who do you call ? Are you going to negotiate directly with the tax authorities for your allowances ?
Pray tell ......
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Aldente,
Read the small print in your beloved BALPA handbook
BALPA will NOT, and does NOT underwrite your legal costs unreservedly.
Save your 1% and get private legal insurance: at least then you have the benefit of knowing you will have your legal fees covered.
All the arguing back and forth does not change the very simple fact that no one from BALPA or no BALPA hard liner can actually say, irrefutably, what precisely are the "benefits" BALPA will bring to the table.
Blanket statements of "it will improve your T & C's" don't wash: spell it out guys.
Will BALPA, through increasing existing members subscriptions, underwrite any financial losses incurred by Ryanair pilots if recognition goes through? Will BALPA, unreservedly pay the full salaries of any guys made redundant until they get another job? Will BALPA, without reservation, cover the legal fees of any FR pilot who becomes involved in litigation with the company?
I doubt it.
And that folks is why BALPA will NEVER achieve any form of recognition or support in the massed ranks of FR pilots.
Now shall we discuss the weather?
Read the small print in your beloved BALPA handbook
BALPA will NOT, and does NOT underwrite your legal costs unreservedly.
Save your 1% and get private legal insurance: at least then you have the benefit of knowing you will have your legal fees covered.
All the arguing back and forth does not change the very simple fact that no one from BALPA or no BALPA hard liner can actually say, irrefutably, what precisely are the "benefits" BALPA will bring to the table.
Blanket statements of "it will improve your T & C's" don't wash: spell it out guys.
Will BALPA, through increasing existing members subscriptions, underwrite any financial losses incurred by Ryanair pilots if recognition goes through? Will BALPA, unreservedly pay the full salaries of any guys made redundant until they get another job? Will BALPA, without reservation, cover the legal fees of any FR pilot who becomes involved in litigation with the company?
I doubt it.
And that folks is why BALPA will NEVER achieve any form of recognition or support in the massed ranks of FR pilots.
Now shall we discuss the weather?
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Slim
Replace the word "BALPA" with "ERC", in what you have written above, then ask the same questions again !
Does it make things look any better ?
No, I thought not .....
By the way, it looks like rain ......
Replace the word "BALPA" with "ERC", in what you have written above, then ask the same questions again !
Does it make things look any better ?
No, I thought not .....
By the way, it looks like rain ......
Join Date: Jul 2004
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There is no other way than joining BALPA.
What's funny is the way RYR management voice how useless BALPA can be. But the truth is they **** in their pants so hard they keep voicing it with all sorts of swearings and agressive notes.
BALPA WILL rise.
What's funny is the way RYR management voice how useless BALPA can be. But the truth is they **** in their pants so hard they keep voicing it with all sorts of swearings and agressive notes.
BALPA WILL rise.
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Regarding BALPA/T&G just look at what happened to Sabena pilots, many moons ago, when "general unions" took on pilots and negociated for them. They landed with so little as they were the margin the negociators would play on. They got crushed.
Never, NEVER go by non-pilot unions ! This is what's happening in France as well. The French got it all across when the governement wanted to have pilots represented by ground people. They understood their fate would be guided by people who have no interest in them. A strike threat for this coming summer has put all back in place and they'll have their own unions.
Never, NEVER go by non-pilot unions ! This is what's happening in France as well. The French got it all across when the governement wanted to have pilots represented by ground people. They understood their fate would be guided by people who have no interest in them. A strike threat for this coming summer has put all back in place and they'll have their own unions.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Hadrian's bitch and the bastards who killed it.
just look at what happened to Sabena pilots
A HISTORIC AIRLINE IS GONE
After an airline recession and the effects on the airline industry of the terrorist attacks on America on 11th September 2001 all airlines that flew across the Atlantic suffered badly.
Further to this SABENA was owed 84 million by the Swiss airline Swissair. After Swissair stopped operations on 2nd October 2001 and refused to repay the money SABENA was forced to stop flying. They filed for legal protection against their creditors on 3rd October.
This gave SABENA about three weeks to get further financial backing. With most of the main airlines in Europe fighting for passengers in the aftermath of the attack on the USA and on civil aviation SABENA failed to gain the required backing and went into liquidation on 7 November 2001.
After an airline recession and the effects on the airline industry of the terrorist attacks on America on 11th September 2001 all airlines that flew across the Atlantic suffered badly.
Further to this SABENA was owed 84 million by the Swiss airline Swissair. After Swissair stopped operations on 2nd October 2001 and refused to repay the money SABENA was forced to stop flying. They filed for legal protection against their creditors on 3rd October.
This gave SABENA about three weeks to get further financial backing. With most of the main airlines in Europe fighting for passengers in the aftermath of the attack on the USA and on civil aviation SABENA failed to gain the required backing and went into liquidation on 7 November 2001.
We would rather see Sabena destroyed than restructured.
Rest in Pieces, Sabena.
Born, April Fool's Day, 1924. Died, 7 November, 2001. Cause of death, pilot union.
This sort of disgusting ignoble behaviour is absolutely typical of the feral stupidity and ill-considered posturing that comes hand in hand with every pilot's union, so perhaps you'll forgive me in not joining you in your enthusiasm for them at Ryanair, FRying.
BLAPA, to be fair, are nothing like the BeCA. What they lack in Gallic distemper and flair for the theatrical, though, they more than make up for in British mendacity. They will, to be sure, happily relieve you of your subscription fees, whipping out those direct debit forms with lightning speed, knowing full-well that they'll be a toothless tiger thereafter, and a deaf one at that. They're broke and they need your money, which explains the uncharacteristic zeal and myopic focus they're displaying at present toward to task of misleading you into joining them. And for what?
BLAPA know very well that, even if 100% of Ryanair pilots voted for them, (and good luck with that, boys) Ryanair, an Irish Airline with over 25 different nationalities represented in the cockpit and bases spread over almost the entire European Union, would achieve nothing. Their implicit means of ensuring compliance is a strike. Whilst there may well be a vocal few absolutely salivating at the prospect of a juicy strike, those of us with families, children and responsibilities may care to reflect on the relative wisdom of testing the resolve of a Chief Executive not known for his fondness of compromise, and of taking on an airline with far, far deeper pockets than even a completely united pilots corps could amass in a thousand lifetimes.
I, too, would like to see a few things changed at Ryanair and believe they could be with relative ease, but that is a personal opinion. The leadership of the airline is focused, now more than ever, on growing the business in the midst of the worst recession in the history of flight. Diverting management attention from this crucial task is bound to be met with annoyance. Threats of union recognition are of course going to be answered, as all threats are, with a regimental attack. If you seriously think that a few terse messages from Head Office, and a note from our General Manager of Flight Operations is the end of their management strategy to handle this one, you seriously need to think again.
Slim Shady, as so often in the past, has it right again this time. You should be asking BLAPA and the Dwarf precisely how they intend to insulate you and your families against the impact of closing a few bases and sacking the pilots made redundant by the process. Tell BLAPA to phuck off, on the other hand, and watch how quickly it all goes away. Just a thought.
Will BALPA, through increasing existing members subscriptions, underwrite any financial losses incurred by Ryanair pilots if recognition goes through? Will BALPA, unreservedly pay the full salaries of any guys made redundant until they get another job? Will BALPA, without reservation, cover the legal fees of any FR pilot who becomes involved in litigation with the company?
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Quote:
Will BALPA, through increasing existing members subscriptions, underwrite any financial losses incurred by Ryanair pilots if recognition goes through? Will BALPA, unreservedly pay the full salaries of any guys made redundant until they get another job? Will BALPA, without reservation, cover the legal fees of any FR pilot who becomes involved in litigation with the company?
Ah, no. They won't.
Will BALPA, through increasing existing members subscriptions, underwrite any financial losses incurred by Ryanair pilots if recognition goes through? Will BALPA, unreservedly pay the full salaries of any guys made redundant until they get another job? Will BALPA, without reservation, cover the legal fees of any FR pilot who becomes involved in litigation with the company?
Ah, no. They won't.
I don't know what BALPA would do in such a case but I am surely willing to donate 1 or 2 days worth of monthly work to those who would be unfairly sacked by such short sighted management.
Would you be willing to do the same?
I really don't want to get involved in this thread because I am now retired and I never worked for Ryanair.
However, I can tell you about what happens when you try to get BALPA involved.
I became a very disenchanted BALPA member when they did absolutely nothing for me when BA (and their friends) put Laker out of business.
Some years later, I got involved in a new start-up operation and called BALPA (I was stupidly still a member) and told them that I had just got involved in a new-start operation that could grow to 30 - 40 aeroplanes.
"Good for you Old Boy" said they "Call us back when they want to join".
I was elected as the Pilots' Rep by ALL of the pilots. Not a single pilot demurred.
I went back to BALPA with this information and I was told that "For the moment, considering the number of possible members that we could recruit and considering the possibly very litigious company involved, we are not really interested".
As you can imagine, that advanced my opinion of BALPA hugely.
My biggest worry was what would happen to one of my members should they slide off the end off a runway at Athens (for example) and find themselves in jail and that the Company might find it convenient not to defend them.
And so it was that I found an organisation that gave just such an assurance for a very modest fee.
The cost at today's prices is around £125 for £250,000 of legal costs and the big advantage is that your legal defence is guaranteed whereas BALPA will only ever defend you IF they think they can win the case.
However, I can tell you about what happens when you try to get BALPA involved.
I became a very disenchanted BALPA member when they did absolutely nothing for me when BA (and their friends) put Laker out of business.
Some years later, I got involved in a new start-up operation and called BALPA (I was stupidly still a member) and told them that I had just got involved in a new-start operation that could grow to 30 - 40 aeroplanes.
"Good for you Old Boy" said they "Call us back when they want to join".
I was elected as the Pilots' Rep by ALL of the pilots. Not a single pilot demurred.
I went back to BALPA with this information and I was told that "For the moment, considering the number of possible members that we could recruit and considering the possibly very litigious company involved, we are not really interested".
As you can imagine, that advanced my opinion of BALPA hugely.
My biggest worry was what would happen to one of my members should they slide off the end off a runway at Athens (for example) and find themselves in jail and that the Company might find it convenient not to defend them.
And so it was that I found an organisation that gave just such an assurance for a very modest fee.
The cost at today's prices is around £125 for £250,000 of legal costs and the big advantage is that your legal defence is guaranteed whereas BALPA will only ever defend you IF they think they can win the case.