Further paycuts at Ryanair
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Further paycuts at Ryanair
After receiving a Memo stating that we would now have to pay for Rental cars and Hotels at your twice yearly recurrant Sims further cuts have been anounced at Ryanair.
Overall some very large slices off a very poor package already. On the Ryanair website they claim to have the best paid Pilots in Europe.
- Sector pay has been reduced by approximatly 1800 Net a year
- Base transfers will be subject to a further 10 percent cut in Basic salary
- New Captains take a 10 percent cut in basic salary and 10 percent cut in Sector pay
Overall some very large slices off a very poor package already. On the Ryanair website they claim to have the best paid Pilots in Europe.
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or is it written some where? (base transfer)
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over supply of pilots
It was bound to go down this road given the over supply of pilots in the current market, Ryanair are a one trick poney, namely price. They now have an increasing cost base through flying to proper airports and other airlines have driven their own costs down.
Churrning out an endless supply of happless cadets is part of it, i predict it will only be a matter of time before they become a virtual airline, with the only Captain's being contractors and F/O's bidding to fly for blocks of 200 hundred hours ie how much will you pay to gain 200 hundred hours NG time.
Some may think this extream, but who would have thought only a few years ago that you would have to pay £40 for an airline to issue you with a boarding card or being charged to take your duty free goods on board? how long before you'll be charged to get off.
MOL knows that most pilots are spineless when it comes to taking industrial action, sadly they have left it far to late in the business cycle.
What goes around comes around though as and when the market picks up Airbus have made it clear they wont do deals with MOL and that allows Boeing to price its future deals in a way that will recover the discounts over the last decade
Churrning out an endless supply of happless cadets is part of it, i predict it will only be a matter of time before they become a virtual airline, with the only Captain's being contractors and F/O's bidding to fly for blocks of 200 hundred hours ie how much will you pay to gain 200 hundred hours NG time.
Some may think this extream, but who would have thought only a few years ago that you would have to pay £40 for an airline to issue you with a boarding card or being charged to take your duty free goods on board? how long before you'll be charged to get off.
MOL knows that most pilots are spineless when it comes to taking industrial action, sadly they have left it far to late in the business cycle.
What goes around comes around though as and when the market picks up Airbus have made it clear they wont do deals with MOL and that allows Boeing to price its future deals in a way that will recover the discounts over the last decade
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This is a question for Flying Lawyer perhaps.
EZ started this a few years ago; new captains on reduced pay for 6 months. Now RYR as well it seems. Is this a probationary period? Are you an 'apprentice captin? Is there a further assessment and pass/fail check after 6 months? If not then I would have thought you had a claim under the 'less favourable treatment' rules of EU labour law. There are no seniority lists in these companies. Therefore all employees doing the same job are entitled to the same T's & C's. How can you have 'junior' captains doing a fulltime captains job when there is no senoirity list and pay them any less than any other captain. If this premise is correct under EU law, and BALPA is in EZ, how has thus been allowed to happen?
But first, is the concept of equal T's & C's for all employees in the same job correct as I understand it.
No doubt there will be the usual replies of airlines not respecting labour law and if you want a command you have to bend over etc. etc. However, once you have a command you might have a claim for having signed an less favourable contract under duress.
Please, only factual knowledgable replies and not the usual LoCo bashing. If I am correct in my premise then BALPA have not done themselves proud in EZ and yet they hope to bring hope and salvation to RYR.
And no more BALPA bashing replies, please; only facts.
EZ started this a few years ago; new captains on reduced pay for 6 months. Now RYR as well it seems. Is this a probationary period? Are you an 'apprentice captin? Is there a further assessment and pass/fail check after 6 months? If not then I would have thought you had a claim under the 'less favourable treatment' rules of EU labour law. There are no seniority lists in these companies. Therefore all employees doing the same job are entitled to the same T's & C's. How can you have 'junior' captains doing a fulltime captains job when there is no senoirity list and pay them any less than any other captain. If this premise is correct under EU law, and BALPA is in EZ, how has thus been allowed to happen?
But first, is the concept of equal T's & C's for all employees in the same job correct as I understand it.
No doubt there will be the usual replies of airlines not respecting labour law and if you want a command you have to bend over etc. etc. However, once you have a command you might have a claim for having signed an less favourable contract under duress.
Please, only factual knowledgable replies and not the usual LoCo bashing. If I am correct in my premise then BALPA have not done themselves proud in EZ and yet they hope to bring hope and salvation to RYR.
And no more BALPA bashing replies, please; only facts.
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This entire industry is riddled from top to bottom with devious working practices that would never be acceptable in any any other.
Dubious contracts, illegal working hours, lying and cheating employers, unlicenced pilots even!!!! it's everywhere! I've seen it. And somehow the powers to be just turn a blind eye to all of it.
Any other industry where your employer steps out of line and the hammer falls from a great height. Are the respective governments, EU, courts etc. in these guys pockets? I do wonder?
Dubious contracts, illegal working hours, lying and cheating employers, unlicenced pilots even!!!! it's everywhere! I've seen it. And somehow the powers to be just turn a blind eye to all of it.
Any other industry where your employer steps out of line and the hammer falls from a great height. Are the respective governments, EU, courts etc. in these guys pockets? I do wonder?
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And somehow the powers to be just turn a blind eye to all of it.
There is just something about pilots which makes them utter innocents when it comes to looking after their interests. It is to be found in post after post on a range of discussion here on PPRUNE. Sometimes it is hidden in pro or anti union posts, or behind those who declare themselves "realists".
What I am referring to? I refer to the notion that there is anyone, other than pilots themselves, available to sort things out. There is NO "powers" off stage able or willing to come in, like the cavalry, to help.
The actual "powers that be" will say - "if there is something wrong that has anything to do with us, put it in writing". If that is not about safety or regulation they will declare it "off limits" and suggest a legal remedy. Only an idividual pilot, or association can then act. If a pilots' association is to act it needs members - and even more, it needs members who are willing to act themselves or to support legal or other action.
Pilots show a remarkable inability to get this. It is not exclusive to any particular group of pilots or to any country. It just comes with the pilot package: confident, opinionated, innocent to the point of naivete and easily "seen off" when they are not part of an established and well run pilots association.
Everything Ryanair is doing it has repeatedly done before. And we still see people who sound off without even having done the slightest bit of research about the well established realities of the own current employer. So what if some outsiders get it wrong .... if those inside cannot work out the "bleedin obvious" why expect anyone else to do so?
Nobody will help Ryanair pilots until they show some backbone. Thay have not earned such support and do not deserve it. Even if their treatment is deplorable and on occasions outrageous.
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ATSE
I actually agree with everything you say but that does not excuse the "powers that be," the regulators, of this industry from enforcing the regulations when needed. That means strict adherence to FTL's, licencing, AOC operations and the like.
Additionally the point I was making was that employment law seems to vanish into the clouds whenever it refers to aviation. There are a million rules that are enforced elsewhere on how employers treat their workers both in work and when they are "released." The likes of Ryanair and many others stick two fingers up at these laws and get away with it. Why? Probably because the regulators are living off the back of the operator. Much like the bank regulators which is why they allowed such a blatent abuse of others money!
Yes pilots are the most incoherent bunch but when I am given a rule book I expect myself and others to operate to it, not choose which rules to abide by, which to bend, and which to ignore!
I actually agree with everything you say but that does not excuse the "powers that be," the regulators, of this industry from enforcing the regulations when needed. That means strict adherence to FTL's, licencing, AOC operations and the like.
Additionally the point I was making was that employment law seems to vanish into the clouds whenever it refers to aviation. There are a million rules that are enforced elsewhere on how employers treat their workers both in work and when they are "released." The likes of Ryanair and many others stick two fingers up at these laws and get away with it. Why? Probably because the regulators are living off the back of the operator. Much like the bank regulators which is why they allowed such a blatent abuse of others money!
Yes pilots are the most incoherent bunch but when I am given a rule book I expect myself and others to operate to it, not choose which rules to abide by, which to bend, and which to ignore!
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'The likes of Ryanair and many others stick two fingers up at these laws and get away with it. Why?'
Kelly - atse has already given you the answer. The individual is powerless (unless of independent means and can afford a protracted period off work to fight the case) to pursue breaches of law (various) that, as you rightly say, are widespread throughout the industry.
The only answer is collective action through union representation. The best terms and conditions exist in airlines where unionisation has been established over a long period and, most importantly, where the corresponding management know that they HAVE to talk to the union before any changes are made.
Leaving current losses aside (short term in the current squeeze) just look at the T&Cs at the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and BA and then look at the declining T&Cs at esay and O'Leary's mob.
There is this irrational fear amongst pilots that 'oh, if we go on strike the airline and our jobs are doomed'. It is that irrationality that the airline managements rely upon because they know that, unlike themselves, pilots in the main are jolly decent types who live their working lives by 'toeing the line'. Once the bottom line is affected the management will come running to the table.
But the bottom line for the pilots concerned is that they must act as one and that can only be through a union. Those that have the right to union representation through national law and do not exercise that right are doing themselves and colleagues elsewhere who are not afforded that protection a great disservice.
Kelly - atse has already given you the answer. The individual is powerless (unless of independent means and can afford a protracted period off work to fight the case) to pursue breaches of law (various) that, as you rightly say, are widespread throughout the industry.
The only answer is collective action through union representation. The best terms and conditions exist in airlines where unionisation has been established over a long period and, most importantly, where the corresponding management know that they HAVE to talk to the union before any changes are made.
Leaving current losses aside (short term in the current squeeze) just look at the T&Cs at the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and BA and then look at the declining T&Cs at esay and O'Leary's mob.
There is this irrational fear amongst pilots that 'oh, if we go on strike the airline and our jobs are doomed'. It is that irrationality that the airline managements rely upon because they know that, unlike themselves, pilots in the main are jolly decent types who live their working lives by 'toeing the line'. Once the bottom line is affected the management will come running to the table.
But the bottom line for the pilots concerned is that they must act as one and that can only be through a union. Those that have the right to union representation through national law and do not exercise that right are doing themselves and colleagues elsewhere who are not afforded that protection a great disservice.
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MaxReHeat.
I had already acknowledged Atse's comments but there are other reasons too.
I'll spell it out for you: I could name an operator who I know abuses every rule in the book and bribes their ops inspector to turn a blind eye!
So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.
If the rules were enforced it would be a start and pressure would not be applied to crews to bend rules.
I agree though that for airlines the only way to protect T's & C's has to be through union representation.
I had already acknowledged Atse's comments but there are other reasons too.
I'll spell it out for you: I could name an operator who I know abuses every rule in the book and bribes their ops inspector to turn a blind eye!
So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.
If the rules were enforced it would be a start and pressure would not be applied to crews to bend rules.
I agree though that for airlines the only way to protect T's & C's has to be through union representation.
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I'll spell it out for you: I could name an operator who I know abuses every rule in the book and bribes their ops inspector to turn a blind eye!
So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.
So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.
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Up through the sulphur sploshed another one.
The best terms and conditions exist in airlines where unionisation has been established over a long period
just look at the T&Cs at the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and BA
and do not exercise that right are doing themselves and colleagues elsewhere who are not afforded that protection a great disservice.
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The sad thing is, there are individuals out there who'll be taken in by the demented rantings of Leo Hairy Camel and cohorts. It's apparent they are worried, hence the concerted campaign to rubbish BALPA and any airline which recognises it.
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Ah Leo, Leo Leo,
Calm down man, you'll give yourself indigestion. Do you have ANY opinions which are balanced and not batting from one extreme or the other? When deciding on a point of view have you ever thought about listening to another's opinion even though it may differ from your own and perhaps widening your field of view?
If, as you claim, your T's and C's are so wonderful, what would you have to fear whatsoever from unionism? Why would the best paid pilots in the world want to complain, unless, as is claimed here, and elsewhere (all over this website in fact) they have a point and the truth is that they are far from the best paid, as well as apparently treated with disdain by you and Ryanair management in general? There are so many Ryanair crew who, when you ask them (I have asked a good many) like a lot of things about their jobs ('tis a balanced opinion, mine) but the common thread throughout their replies is that they are able to just ignore the way management treat them, hate them almost.
Perhaps if you accept that some of the people telling you the same thing over and over might actually have a point, and you accept or even address that point, you might find life a little less confrontational.
Just a suggestion for you to digest and enjoy; bollocks man I really mean confront.
Calm down man, you'll give yourself indigestion. Do you have ANY opinions which are balanced and not batting from one extreme or the other? When deciding on a point of view have you ever thought about listening to another's opinion even though it may differ from your own and perhaps widening your field of view?
If, as you claim, your T's and C's are so wonderful, what would you have to fear whatsoever from unionism? Why would the best paid pilots in the world want to complain, unless, as is claimed here, and elsewhere (all over this website in fact) they have a point and the truth is that they are far from the best paid, as well as apparently treated with disdain by you and Ryanair management in general? There are so many Ryanair crew who, when you ask them (I have asked a good many) like a lot of things about their jobs ('tis a balanced opinion, mine) but the common thread throughout their replies is that they are able to just ignore the way management treat them, hate them almost.
Perhaps if you accept that some of the people telling you the same thing over and over might actually have a point, and you accept or even address that point, you might find life a little less confrontational.
Just a suggestion for you to digest and enjoy; bollocks man I really mean confront.
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I gave up trying to reason with LEO (management) in a different thread some time ago. He is entirely self opinionated and has no thought whatsoever for those of us who may be worse off than him. Hopefully his little world will fall apart one day and leave him in an undesirable situation.
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Leo
From what I can see on other threads Leo, your outfit are laying off F/O's who are on the point of reaching the higher level of sector pay and then hiring in new ones at lower cost, so any recruitment you are conducting is spurious and immoral.
Perhaps your chicken **** outfit should start making money by flying passengers around rather than exploiting wannabe pilots year in out and abusing those you already have operating your aircraft.
So far as I can tell your business model seems bent, you're putting planes on the ground by the dozen, while dozens more are turning up from Boeing in the next 12 months, you're sacking call centre staff and now slashing the terms and conditions of your employees yet again - how long till you can't pay the fuel bills????
Desk-pilot
Perhaps your chicken **** outfit should start making money by flying passengers around rather than exploiting wannabe pilots year in out and abusing those you already have operating your aircraft.
So far as I can tell your business model seems bent, you're putting planes on the ground by the dozen, while dozens more are turning up from Boeing in the next 12 months, you're sacking call centre staff and now slashing the terms and conditions of your employees yet again - how long till you can't pay the fuel bills????
Desk-pilot