Ryanair threatens it's pilots, again.
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Ryanair threatens it's pilots, again.
Three senior Managers called a meeting with STN base Pilots this week in response to the BALPA respect and recognition campaign being run by BALPA.
They threatened that if a Union was formed they would:
Not upgrade F/Os to Captain
Freeze all transfers in and out of all UK bases.
Change the roster from 5/4 to 5/2
Close two UK bases
Refuse to meet with BALPA even after recognition rights were awarded.
And so on and so forth.
I hope Ryanair Pilots realize that these are scare tactics from a management we have on the run. THEY need 5/4, new Captains, trainers and transfers. They threaten to erode our T&Cs? I say they have been consistently doing this for the past 10 years and will continue to do so wether we have a Union or not.
So what have we got to lose over the long term?
Over to you FR management=Leo Hairy Camel
(Anyone elses management communicate with the workforce via PPRuNe?)
They threatened that if a Union was formed they would:
Not upgrade F/Os to Captain
Freeze all transfers in and out of all UK bases.
Change the roster from 5/4 to 5/2
Close two UK bases
Refuse to meet with BALPA even after recognition rights were awarded.
And so on and so forth.
I hope Ryanair Pilots realize that these are scare tactics from a management we have on the run. THEY need 5/4, new Captains, trainers and transfers. They threaten to erode our T&Cs? I say they have been consistently doing this for the past 10 years and will continue to do so wether we have a Union or not.
So what have we got to lose over the long term?
Over to you FR management=Leo Hairy Camel
(Anyone elses management communicate with the workforce via PPRuNe?)
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Carmoisine,
Opinions on the BALPA issue are like ar8eholes: everyone has one.
You have your opinion of BALPA membership and recognition, I have mine and Ryanair management have an opinion.
Your title, using the word "threatens", could equally be used to describe the perception the management have, "threatened" by a group of pilots pressing for union recognition somewhere, when they have, for whatever reason, a tangible dislike of unions.
The whole issue has been done to death;unless BALPA and those pushing for recognition can come up with a swathe of benefits we can expect to fall at our feet if they are successful, why don't we give the whole sorry tale a rest and save some bandwidth?
Opinions on the BALPA issue are like ar8eholes: everyone has one.
You have your opinion of BALPA membership and recognition, I have mine and Ryanair management have an opinion.
Your title, using the word "threatens", could equally be used to describe the perception the management have, "threatened" by a group of pilots pressing for union recognition somewhere, when they have, for whatever reason, a tangible dislike of unions.
The whole issue has been done to death;unless BALPA and those pushing for recognition can come up with a swathe of benefits we can expect to fall at our feet if they are successful, why don't we give the whole sorry tale a rest and save some bandwidth?
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When BALPA explain how they intend to get our terms and conditions BACK from RYR after they take them (in spite or not) and give me an appropriate time frame, and give me a reasonable confirmation I won't lose my job, then i'll consider joining. Until then all i've personally seen is them telling us to go for recognition, but not actually stating what will happen after!
Horgy
Horgy
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And that's why Ryanair will never have good conditions for it's pilots. None of you are willing to stand up for your profession. What do you think would happen if every Ryanair pilot joined BALPA or their like? They couldn't fire you all you know. Even Ryanair couldn't do that. It would take one week of your lives to get a little respect back. That's all you want. Stop letting yourselves be treated like you are driving buses....You ain't.....
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If I might be permitted to venture an opinion here....I'll fess up, up front that I am not a working pilot, so I accept my opinion is of limited value.
however, it seems to me that Pressman nails it straight on when he says that no-one in this industry is actually really prepared to stand up and fight for the job of "pilot" rather than the employment of "me". It's this that enables Ts and Cs to be driven down, the dumbing down of the profession, the taking advantage of newbies like me and so on. Contentious yes and I fully accept there are a lot of pilots who do try and help in their own small way - however how much can one person do.
However, it also seems to me that Balpa has taken much from many people over the years, but has not really delivered much that's tangible. I also fully accept that often the value of a union is not obviously apparent and Balpas use may be hidden from immediate view...
So, two contentious points later...the rub. It seems to me that if Balpa and those pilots who belong/represent it want to make the difference and gain membership within ryanair - who we all know are more exposed than most to the whims of their management, then they need to do something to show they're not just all bark and no bite... And god knows right now this industry needs someone to fight back against the continual degradation...
however, it seems to me that Pressman nails it straight on when he says that no-one in this industry is actually really prepared to stand up and fight for the job of "pilot" rather than the employment of "me". It's this that enables Ts and Cs to be driven down, the dumbing down of the profession, the taking advantage of newbies like me and so on. Contentious yes and I fully accept there are a lot of pilots who do try and help in their own small way - however how much can one person do.
However, it also seems to me that Balpa has taken much from many people over the years, but has not really delivered much that's tangible. I also fully accept that often the value of a union is not obviously apparent and Balpas use may be hidden from immediate view...
So, two contentious points later...the rub. It seems to me that if Balpa and those pilots who belong/represent it want to make the difference and gain membership within ryanair - who we all know are more exposed than most to the whims of their management, then they need to do something to show they're not just all bark and no bite... And god knows right now this industry needs someone to fight back against the continual degradation...
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Pressman et al,
Please don't take what I said as a knocking of the value of what we are trying to achieve - I just don't think BALPA are the right people to deliver it. Clanger puts very nicely what (from my own straw poll) a few people at RYR think of them.
I think there is much mileage in REPA and opening channels to the management - a capt tried to put that to the team at the meeting and it was acknowledged that the ERC needed to be more flexible and adaptable, something they conceeded they would look at in the future.
Horgy
Please don't take what I said as a knocking of the value of what we are trying to achieve - I just don't think BALPA are the right people to deliver it. Clanger puts very nicely what (from my own straw poll) a few people at RYR think of them.
I think there is much mileage in REPA and opening channels to the management - a capt tried to put that to the team at the meeting and it was acknowledged that the ERC needed to be more flexible and adaptable, something they conceeded they would look at in the future.
Horgy
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Real Slim Shady,
Don't be such an idiot. Ryanair threatened by it's Pilots? Oh poor, little Ryanair. It has no defences of it's own... except threats bullying and belittling it's employees. You need to wake up and smell the future.
Mr Horgy,
If BALPA aren't the people to deliver "it", whatever that may be, then who is? The Milkman???
BALPA is not a big dog, on a rusty leash waiting to bite someone from an office. BALPA is YOU, THE RYANAIR pilots, just like the BA, Thomson, Virgin, Flybe, Bond Helicopter, Thomas Cook etc etc Pilots.
Your union is only as strong as it's members. And from what I see of you lot....well, lets just say that my 14 month old son has more guts for a fight than you guys.
It's a shame. You don't know your own power for yourselves and for the industry as a whole. Enjoy your slide into professional oblivion.
Don't be such an idiot. Ryanair threatened by it's Pilots? Oh poor, little Ryanair. It has no defences of it's own... except threats bullying and belittling it's employees. You need to wake up and smell the future.
Mr Horgy,
If BALPA aren't the people to deliver "it", whatever that may be, then who is? The Milkman???
BALPA is not a big dog, on a rusty leash waiting to bite someone from an office. BALPA is YOU, THE RYANAIR pilots, just like the BA, Thomson, Virgin, Flybe, Bond Helicopter, Thomas Cook etc etc Pilots.
Your union is only as strong as it's members. And from what I see of you lot....well, lets just say that my 14 month old son has more guts for a fight than you guys.
It's a shame. You don't know your own power for yourselves and for the industry as a whole. Enjoy your slide into professional oblivion.
Last edited by stansdead; 20th May 2009 at 17:20. Reason: spelling
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Horgy, surely you don't want things to remain the same in RYR? BALPA can only make things better! the current trend with management dictating play is a downward spiral. Your voting in proper consultation between the workforce and the employer.
Anyway I hope these usual threats haven't had any impact on the majority. Once recognised, they can't dick about with the T+C's, say good bye to the days when we had no choice but to just 'take it or leave' mentality.
I'm BRK, not by choice, but I want BALPA in the door, BRK or RYR, its the same future.
Anyway I hope these usual threats haven't had any impact on the majority. Once recognised, they can't dick about with the T+C's, say good bye to the days when we had no choice but to just 'take it or leave' mentality.
I'm BRK, not by choice, but I want BALPA in the door, BRK or RYR, its the same future.
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I think there is much mileage in REPA and opening channels to the management - a capt tried to put that to the team at the meeting and it was acknowledged that the ERC needed to be more flexible and adaptable, something they conceeded they would look at in the future.
If at this late stage in the game you are still prepared to believe things like that, then there is very little hope for you!
The ERC have delivered nothing except a continued reduction of our T&C's simply because of the fact that they are dictated to by the management. This is always followed by a sham of a vote where FR always get their new reduced terms through, amazingly!
With BALPA we would have a proper avenue for negotiations that could be constructive for both sides. Although I think both sides will have to expect some pain before we can start to get anywhere.
Bottom line is, we shouldn't have to accept this and we won't anymore. Next, the cabin crew!
Last edited by Flaps5speed180; 20th May 2009 at 22:15.
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All of which is a good reminder that some people are beyond help.
They do not merit anyone wasting their time on fruitless efforts to persuade their closed minds.
Closed minds are only good for blaming everyone else for what is inevitably going to happen to every single pilot (including those with closed minds).
Move on guys. Leave him be.
They do not merit anyone wasting their time on fruitless efforts to persuade their closed minds.
Closed minds are only good for blaming everyone else for what is inevitably going to happen to every single pilot (including those with closed minds).
Move on guys. Leave him be.
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Is there really a choice? If the Union doesn't get in then what next? Enough was stripped away during the good years, who knows what's next. I believe the management would cut their nose off and follow through on their threats but they will only hurt themselves. They need pilots long term and they need to keep the job attractive to fill the vacancies. Plus, they have a responsibility to the board and the shareholder not to wreck the shareprice with pointless aggressive anti-union activities.
But it will be horrible for a while.
But it will be horrible for a while.
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Last edited by inveritas; 22nd Jun 2009 at 21:20.
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Leo,
if RYR need pilot redundancies at those bases, they will make them, BALPA or not.
So please, less of the bollocks you have written - its tiresome, predictable and, in your own words, rather ignorant.
if RYR need pilot redundancies at those bases, they will make them, BALPA or not.
So please, less of the bollocks you have written - its tiresome, predictable and, in your own words, rather ignorant.
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If going to get fired by RYR in this contracting market...lets all get pissed in the cockpit and ruin the airlines rep! I'll be off to become a bus driver! The pay is better!
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Firstly, I don't know why some of you work for Ryanair at all. However, if you do, try and get hold of a recent BALPA brochure: Thomas Cook Airlines - What has BALPA ever done for you?
Read this and you will realise what can be achieved by working together. It was not always thus, but a large BALPA memership does help bring the 2 sides together. "I'll see what happens and then join" attitude is of no value. A strong council, backed up by a high percentage of members will achieve what you want.
Still, you could always sit on the sidelines, sponge off the others and wait for the next dictate to arrive.
Anyway, It's only Me
Read this and you will realise what can be achieved by working together. It was not always thus, but a large BALPA memership does help bring the 2 sides together. "I'll see what happens and then join" attitude is of no value. A strong council, backed up by a high percentage of members will achieve what you want.
Still, you could always sit on the sidelines, sponge off the others and wait for the next dictate to arrive.
Anyway, It's only Me
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inveritas are you saying that IALPA has been helping somebody based in Marseille take Ryanair to court? There is not a single word about this on REPA or anywhere else. Can you confirm that the case actually took place and that it was about honoring the contract of employment of this pilot?
If that is the case it definitely is significant. But I know no Ryanair pilot who knows about this, so I am confused if it is a fact or a rumour.
If that is the case it definitely is significant. But I know no Ryanair pilot who knows about this, so I am confused if it is a fact or a rumour.
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The fees for Balpa annoys me a little
I may be wrong on this but you have to pay them a % of your basic pay correct? so on a Ryanair contract that may be say £50 a month as a ball park figure,,, no idea really, just guessing,,,,,, well this is where it should be a bargin for me, I am on a brookfield contract so my basic pay is zero! so there % of that for my membership should be zero a month right!
either way I think paying a % is a con,,,, it should be a flat fee,,, £49 a year of something and £40 to renew if you pay by direct debit,, id go for that,, maybe???
other argument I have is aparently you need a certain % of pilots to join to get automatic reconginion correct,,, so if I join now and no one else does,,, I am just wasteing my fee right as they will do jack all until they have enough members,,,,, there does not seem to be any campain to get us pilots to join,, yea you could say its in our interest to do so,,, but so is cutting out some red meat from my diet,,, I know its good for me but its never gonna happen unless my doctor spoon feeds me carrots every day!.
Looking at the way FR management act towards most things, I really dont think they will give BALPA the time of day for a long while yet,,, why should they when aviation is on its arse most of the world over,,,, in a strong market with everyone making money there is other places to go (greener grass and all that ) at the min theres not much on offer so they know they can take the piss a little.
just my thoughts,,,, ill sit back now and wait for people to mentaly stone me to death now :-)
I may be wrong on this but you have to pay them a % of your basic pay correct? so on a Ryanair contract that may be say £50 a month as a ball park figure,,, no idea really, just guessing,,,,,, well this is where it should be a bargin for me, I am on a brookfield contract so my basic pay is zero! so there % of that for my membership should be zero a month right!
either way I think paying a % is a con,,,, it should be a flat fee,,, £49 a year of something and £40 to renew if you pay by direct debit,, id go for that,, maybe???
other argument I have is aparently you need a certain % of pilots to join to get automatic reconginion correct,,, so if I join now and no one else does,,, I am just wasteing my fee right as they will do jack all until they have enough members,,,,, there does not seem to be any campain to get us pilots to join,, yea you could say its in our interest to do so,,, but so is cutting out some red meat from my diet,,, I know its good for me but its never gonna happen unless my doctor spoon feeds me carrots every day!.
Looking at the way FR management act towards most things, I really dont think they will give BALPA the time of day for a long while yet,,, why should they when aviation is on its arse most of the world over,,,, in a strong market with everyone making money there is other places to go (greener grass and all that ) at the min theres not much on offer so they know they can take the piss a little.
just my thoughts,,,, ill sit back now and wait for people to mentaly stone me to death now :-)
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If BALPA's "fees" annoy you then don't pay them.
If everybody thinks like you and waits until "the others" join, then nobody will ever join.
If the pilots don't act to protect their interests, then it is absolutely certain that nobody else will.
This is not about you being persuaded by others, but about your attitude towards yourself, your colleagues and your future.
Finally, if Ryanair knew your identity they would "love bomb" you because of your "correct" way of thinking.
We are all adults and we have decisions to make. Yours, I suspect, will be different from mine.
If everybody thinks like you and waits until "the others" join, then nobody will ever join.
If the pilots don't act to protect their interests, then it is absolutely certain that nobody else will.
This is not about you being persuaded by others, but about your attitude towards yourself, your colleagues and your future.
Finally, if Ryanair knew your identity they would "love bomb" you because of your "correct" way of thinking.
We are all adults and we have decisions to make. Yours, I suspect, will be different from mine.
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but so is cutting out some red meat from my diet
Sorry, what point were you making?