Pay for jobs, new (?) twist.
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Pay for jobs, new (?) twist.
Found this on FLT (global) today:
Second/third part should probably read "These positions are specifically for low-hour-not-attractive-for-most-airlines-under-current-market-conditions first officers who will happily pay to work to have any chance of a so called career. We are more then happy to add another 30 K (?) debt to the 75 K (?) they already have from initial their initial training.
Upon successful completion of the pay to work program the candidate may expect to move on to the the next pay to work scam, alternatively we will squeeze out all the hours we can over the summer months and then we will kick you out."
Good luck to all!
CP
Our client Airline are increasing their fleet by an additional 2 aircraft thus have a requirement for additional B737 First Officers for the Summer 2009 season.
These positions are specifically for ‘low houred’ candidates to allow the candidate a valuable opportunity to progress his/her career opportunity(s) thereafter.
The candidate shall be required to complete our Self Sponsored 100 hours Line Training/Flying Programme with our client Airline and upon successful completion of the programme may expect to be employed directly by our client Airline for the Summer 2009 season.
These positions are specifically for ‘low houred’ candidates to allow the candidate a valuable opportunity to progress his/her career opportunity(s) thereafter.
The candidate shall be required to complete our Self Sponsored 100 hours Line Training/Flying Programme with our client Airline and upon successful completion of the programme may expect to be employed directly by our client Airline for the Summer 2009 season.
Upon successful completion of the pay to work program the candidate may expect to move on to the the next pay to work scam, alternatively we will squeeze out all the hours we can over the summer months and then we will kick you out."
Good luck to all!
CP
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Again and again and again.....
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...mps-happy.html
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...us-pilots.html
http://www.pprune.org/french-forum/3...air-maroc.html
The problem has to be solved by the all Aviation Industry involving Pilots, Airlines, and Authorities.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...us-pilots.html
http://www.pprune.org/french-forum/3...air-maroc.html
The problem has to be solved by the all Aviation Industry involving Pilots, Airlines, and Authorities.
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Nothing new !
Pay to fly has been around for some time; astrios has done it and others by including it on the type rating package! And others by giving reduce salary till you have six month and Ryan air don’t pay much for new FO till they pass some time ? Am afraid aviation is not what it used to be .it does not pay to be in aviation these days unless you get lucky and get in with one of the major airline.
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This particular add was for www.corendon-airlines.com
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This issue seems to be a worldwide problem. It is still hard to get the first real job and hours build up. Then there is a kind of greed of wanting to jump from a seneca to a 737 or 320 directly, disconsidering regional or other smaller companies. Here in Brazil we have Gol giving the "opportunity" to get a job by putting 30K (for a scam not TR!)down, no matter qualification or experience, I think those who chose that way helped to create this condition.
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Hold position,
No, that's no longer correct. We've done away with the six month reduced salary. New cadets can expect a proper salary from the day they complete line training.
Ad
No, that's no longer correct. We've done away with the six month reduced salary. New cadets can expect a proper salary from the day they complete line training.
Ad
who serve as CEO of that trash airline ! Join Date: Jan 2009
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Good news
Reluctant 737 it is good to hear that they done away with the 6 months.
As for starting with prop job I have to agree that what you get as hands on flying experience on the start of your flying carrier is extremely beneficial .
As for starting with prop job I have to agree that what you get as hands on flying experience on the start of your flying carrier is extremely beneficial .
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I think the only ones to blame are the scum bags willing to pay for a job.
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wannabe have a lot to say and to do with it. those are the ones who ruin us toghether with the management. Those wannabes that pay to work do not desserve to be pilots.
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I'm sorry but that's a very childish response to a very serious issue which is now biting into the recruitment industry more ferociously than ever before. You can complain about wannabes, TRTOs , bean counters and management all you like but realistically only you (the active, senior pilot workforce) can actually do anything about it.
The problem is that in the recent past too many senior pilots have seen this as not directly affecting them as they will have guaranteed their positions/earnings, so why should they care? But as evident with this scheme in the context of this downturn where pilots are being made redundant, it’s clear to see that inexperienced low timers are preferred over time-on-type experience due to the income airlines/TRTOs can generate (which is two-fold – profit on type rating courses and reduced earnings). You’re terms are now directly on the line here.
The problem is that in the recent past too many senior pilots have seen this as not directly affecting them as they will have guaranteed their positions/earnings, so why should they care? But as evident with this scheme in the context of this downturn where pilots are being made redundant, it’s clear to see that inexperienced low timers are preferred over time-on-type experience due to the income airlines/TRTOs can generate (which is two-fold – profit on type rating courses and reduced earnings). You’re terms are now directly on the line here.
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Superpilot, I fully agree with you. I am working for a company which has just started this Pay-As-You-Go-FO citing the current economic climate as the main reason for it (the need to generate extra revenue). An uproar ensued and this was promptly brought before the union (the collective pilot voice)..........all to no avail.
The only feasible way of stopping this is to go on strike, and we all know that if that happens, the company will go under.
What other options are there?
I do however know that the wheel-of-life turns.........
The only feasible way of stopping this is to go on strike, and we all know that if that happens, the company will go under.
What other options are there?
I do however know that the wheel-of-life turns.........
Gender Faculty Specialist
BLJD, I think that even mentioning the S word to an airline, even if there is no intention to to do it, will have them quivering in their boots these days.
Maybe we have got them by the short and curlies but we're just to soft to do anything about it.
Maybe we have got them by the short and curlies but we're just to soft to do anything about it.
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Have to re-iterate my view that Superpilot and BLJD are correct here. Yes, you could stop the rot if you could persuade every single new fATPL fresh out of flight school to not do these schemes, but you just will never be able to do that. And as long as there's a handful that will take the schemes up, and as long as there's someone to offer the training and as long as the airlines can make a profit, then someone will offer it
The only way to stop it is for it to cease to be in the airlines interests to offer it. And only those that can influence the airline are in position to do that...as Chesty alludes to. But then, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted to defend their own long term interests if it impacts their own short term deal....
The only way to stop it is for it to cease to be in the airlines interests to offer it. And only those that can influence the airline are in position to do that...as Chesty alludes to. But then, how many are prepared to stand up and be counted to defend their own long term interests if it impacts their own short term deal....
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I have to agree with Superpilot, BLJD and Clangar 32.
Beachbumpilot & RSFTO, your comments are neither professional nor realistic and are rather, to be frank, idiotic.
First off, terming an applicant for a flight deck position as a "wannabe" is derogatory. They have an fATPl or an ATPL, however are lacking in a rating and time on type.
As you well know, if you were made redundant from a 737 flight deck and were applying for a position on different equipment, you would have neither time on type or rating either. True, you have line flying experience, but you are not typed nor experienced in that type. Ergo, that would make *YOU* a wannabe too!
Now in respect of a "wannabe" paying for a rating to get a position; what choices do they have?
A pilot with an fATPL or an ATPL looking for a flight deck position with airline has paid up a considerable amount of money for their training and ratings, many have done their bit instructing, dropping meat-bombs, flying crappy piston engine aircraft on charters, etc etc. have earned little money, most probably put themselves into debt to obtain their licenses and put strain on their personal lives to pursue a career doing something that they want to do.
what they love to do.
There is not the financial rewards or security or pensions that used to be associated with being a pilot.
So, faced with having borne expense and stress in pursuing a career, they are now faced with the following options:
1. Pay for a type rating on the *promise* of a job at the end of it.
2. carry on hunting for a position that will not involve an SSTR.
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the expense of an SSTR ?
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the cost of an SSTR on the *promise* of a job ?
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* the insecurity of having paid for an SSTR they will be dropped like hot brick for another SSTR candidate ?
It would be apparent from your posts that you cannot implement available information and circumstantial information to determine a situation and such that does *not* make you good pilot material.
From an employers perspective, there is little incentive to take on a candidate, meet the costs of integrating that/those candidates into the operation and training them only to see them move on within a given time. Even if they are bonded for the period to recoup the TR expense the cost of crew turnover are a hard cost to bear and recur.
The circumstances that have created this are due to the major airlines, the integrated training facilities and the CAA.
The CAA allows credit for integrated graduates. However, if you are a modular "graduate" you have completed the same course, sat the same exams and had the same flight test to the same standards.
The integrated schools "act" as a training facility to an operator or a number of operators, or perhaps a "way in" to larger airlines. The operators now have ability to "outsource" pilot training.
These circumstances have arisen from market forces and have been gradual changes to the situation we are in now. These changes have arisen not from wannabes but from the training organizations and the operators, allowed by a failure to consider the course of evolution by all concerned.
The only people that have the ability or *have* had the ability to prevent this evolution it current acting flight crews. NOT the wannabes.
You sit and pontificate about how wannabes are affecting T&C's for crews and how SSTR's are damaging the industry. Yes T&C's are declining, yest security is precarious yes SSTR's are damaging, yet *YOU* do nothing to change this apart from blame those that are suffering the most.
It's the wannabes that have to stump up for the SSTR and the wannabes that are inheriting a career with T&C's ever declining to point of nothing.
Beachbumpilot & RSFTO, your comments are neither professional nor realistic and are rather, to be frank, idiotic.
First off, terming an applicant for a flight deck position as a "wannabe" is derogatory. They have an fATPl or an ATPL, however are lacking in a rating and time on type.
As you well know, if you were made redundant from a 737 flight deck and were applying for a position on different equipment, you would have neither time on type or rating either. True, you have line flying experience, but you are not typed nor experienced in that type. Ergo, that would make *YOU* a wannabe too!
Now in respect of a "wannabe" paying for a rating to get a position; what choices do they have?
A pilot with an fATPL or an ATPL looking for a flight deck position with airline has paid up a considerable amount of money for their training and ratings, many have done their bit instructing, dropping meat-bombs, flying crappy piston engine aircraft on charters, etc etc. have earned little money, most probably put themselves into debt to obtain their licenses and put strain on their personal lives to pursue a career doing something that they want to do.
what they love to do.
There is not the financial rewards or security or pensions that used to be associated with being a pilot.
So, faced with having borne expense and stress in pursuing a career, they are now faced with the following options:
1. Pay for a type rating on the *promise* of a job at the end of it.
2. carry on hunting for a position that will not involve an SSTR.
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the expense of an SSTR ?
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* to endure the cost of an SSTR on the *promise* of a job ?
Do you honestly think that any candidate out there *wants* the insecurity of having paid for an SSTR they will be dropped like hot brick for another SSTR candidate ?
It would be apparent from your posts that you cannot implement available information and circumstantial information to determine a situation and such that does *not* make you good pilot material.
From an employers perspective, there is little incentive to take on a candidate, meet the costs of integrating that/those candidates into the operation and training them only to see them move on within a given time. Even if they are bonded for the period to recoup the TR expense the cost of crew turnover are a hard cost to bear and recur.
The circumstances that have created this are due to the major airlines, the integrated training facilities and the CAA.
The CAA allows credit for integrated graduates. However, if you are a modular "graduate" you have completed the same course, sat the same exams and had the same flight test to the same standards.
The integrated schools "act" as a training facility to an operator or a number of operators, or perhaps a "way in" to larger airlines. The operators now have ability to "outsource" pilot training.
These circumstances have arisen from market forces and have been gradual changes to the situation we are in now. These changes have arisen not from wannabes but from the training organizations and the operators, allowed by a failure to consider the course of evolution by all concerned.
The only people that have the ability or *have* had the ability to prevent this evolution it current acting flight crews. NOT the wannabes.
You sit and pontificate about how wannabes are affecting T&C's for crews and how SSTR's are damaging the industry. Yes T&C's are declining, yest security is precarious yes SSTR's are damaging, yet *YOU* do nothing to change this apart from blame those that are suffering the most.
It's the wannabes that have to stump up for the SSTR and the wannabes that are inheriting a career with T&C's ever declining to point of nothing.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 26th Jan 2009 at 12:56. Reason: spelling
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It's somewhat bizarre, but not unexpected, how people these days blame others for their own actions. It's always somebody else's fault it seems.
Whatever you do is by own choice. Nobody forced you to do it. You made the decision, now accept the responsibility.
Whatever you do is by own choice. Nobody forced you to do it. You made the decision, now accept the responsibility.
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Conan, you are spot on. *we* are all responsible for the situation in the industry. *We* all work within it, *we* are all affected by it.
It's not the royal "we" but the actual *we*, that is *us*, all of us in the industry.
Often we react with short term measures, neglecting the long term repercussions, or even ignoring the long term or failing to consider long term effects.
Pilots, Cabin Crew, ATC, Ground Crew, Mantainence, Management and so on, all of us in the industry work within the same industry, together and with the same goals.
It's not the royal "we" but the actual *we*, that is *us*, all of us in the industry.
Often we react with short term measures, neglecting the long term repercussions, or even ignoring the long term or failing to consider long term effects.
Pilots, Cabin Crew, ATC, Ground Crew, Mantainence, Management and so on, all of us in the industry work within the same industry, together and with the same goals.