British Airways Hold Pool News
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When redundancies were made at my last outfit it was made very clear that LIFO is no longer a legitimate way of selecting those for redundancy. The Baby brethren at BHX were put through the same mill and a friend in another UK airline has been told the same thing by his superiors. Surely three occasions can't be a coincidence?
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SEVENMILEUP,
I would be a touch wary of the BALPA forum.
As to a hull reduction this year? Again I dispute that. The draw down of the 757 is to be a lengthy one over the next two to three years. A three hull reduction at Gatwick is being offset by the 10 A320 orders that were delivered in 2008 coupled with 9 new 320's for 2009, 2 318's in final fit at the moment and 2 ex GB 320's that are causing consternation with their singular fuelling coupling on the 'wrong' side. 6 319 aircraft have gone to Gatwick and no draw down in routes for LHR over the summer and a slight route regularity draw down over the winter with no routes dropped. G-YMMM is being replaced soon and then the delivery of the 6 fleet expansion 777's are due to start soon. Overcrewed? Depends on your viewpoint and how deep you dig into the flight ops planning.
As to LIFO, it is of no doubt that BALPA support LIFO. It is the easiest, most convenient and, unless you are below the magic red line, the least contentious form of redundancy. Sadly, with differing fleets and aircraft a few other factors come into play such as re-training. I, personally, would find it galling if a company made me redundant citing cost as a basis and then retrained, incurring training costs, a 'senior' person to do the job I was just laid off from. This is also against EU law where a person cannot be made redundant and then have his job filled within a short time period by another person. 757 draw done? LIFO, replace all of the junior Airbus boys with the 'senior' 757 boys? Ouch. Legal? Possibly not.
Remember, the world is not black and white and BALPA got badly burned over the OS debacle.
What the future holds no one is entirely sure. What you can be sure of is that BA will want to be in a position to ramp up quickly when needed and they can't do that without pilots.
I would be a touch wary of the BALPA forum.
As to a hull reduction this year? Again I dispute that. The draw down of the 757 is to be a lengthy one over the next two to three years. A three hull reduction at Gatwick is being offset by the 10 A320 orders that were delivered in 2008 coupled with 9 new 320's for 2009, 2 318's in final fit at the moment and 2 ex GB 320's that are causing consternation with their singular fuelling coupling on the 'wrong' side. 6 319 aircraft have gone to Gatwick and no draw down in routes for LHR over the summer and a slight route regularity draw down over the winter with no routes dropped. G-YMMM is being replaced soon and then the delivery of the 6 fleet expansion 777's are due to start soon. Overcrewed? Depends on your viewpoint and how deep you dig into the flight ops planning.
As to LIFO, it is of no doubt that BALPA support LIFO. It is the easiest, most convenient and, unless you are below the magic red line, the least contentious form of redundancy. Sadly, with differing fleets and aircraft a few other factors come into play such as re-training. I, personally, would find it galling if a company made me redundant citing cost as a basis and then retrained, incurring training costs, a 'senior' person to do the job I was just laid off from. This is also against EU law where a person cannot be made redundant and then have his job filled within a short time period by another person. 757 draw done? LIFO, replace all of the junior Airbus boys with the 'senior' 757 boys? Ouch. Legal? Possibly not.
Remember, the world is not black and white and BALPA got badly burned over the OS debacle.
What the future holds no one is entirely sure. What you can be sure of is that BA will want to be in a position to ramp up quickly when needed and they can't do that without pilots.
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Special leave might be an option as well. You would be surprised how many people would like to have a year or two off and head for the hills or devote more time to the golf game, outside business interests, go traveling with the family and kids, fly for another carrier on heavier metal etc. So long as seniority is protected and provisions put in place for pension payments and they get first back in when rehiring starts again it can be a win win for all involved and might save the more junior people who are after all relatively cheap to employ.
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I seem to recall that BALPA did not support the LIFO rule when it came to the Dan-Air debacle.
BA will do what BA has to do to survive in this recession it loyalty is to the shareholders not to the staff.
BA will do what BA has to do to survive in this recession it loyalty is to the shareholders not to the staff.
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LIFO is a thing of the past, irrespective of what any company or its employees have agreed.
Rather a pity.
When redundancies were made at my last outfit it was made very clear that LIFO is no longer a legitimate way of selecting those for redundancy
Of course if your employer chooses not to use LOS as a criteria for redundancy then that's up to them but it has nothing to do with it being unlawful, as the recent Rolls-Royce case demonstrated, and much more to do with finding an excuse to select the cheapest employees to make redundant.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 7th Apr 2009 at 12:07.
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Having flown with the BA BALPA chairman recently, he assured me the company have not so much as hinted at pilot redundancies. Part time and unpaid leave are just some options that would be discussed before the big R word is mentioned.
Our head of flight ops has also said during a forum that the costs associated with making a pilot redundant and then retraining them 1-2 years down the line are high enough that it is just not an option.
For the pilots treading water, it is no secret that BA's biggest problem during the last recruitment drive was finding enough candidates to pass selection. Now, we have a full hold pool that have gone through the system and BA will be very reluctant to let you go. We have large aircraft orders and the fella's at pp24 have to retire at some point (2011 discussed as being the next big surge), couple this to the fact that BA wants to be ready to expand quicky once this cyclical industry begins to improve. I don't believe it's all bad. IN IMHO
Our head of flight ops has also said during a forum that the costs associated with making a pilot redundant and then retraining them 1-2 years down the line are high enough that it is just not an option.
For the pilots treading water, it is no secret that BA's biggest problem during the last recruitment drive was finding enough candidates to pass selection. Now, we have a full hold pool that have gone through the system and BA will be very reluctant to let you go. We have large aircraft orders and the fella's at pp24 have to retire at some point (2011 discussed as being the next big surge), couple this to the fact that BA wants to be ready to expand quicky once this cyclical industry begins to improve. I don't believe it's all bad. IN IMHO
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BUS319...Can you let me know the supplier of your rose-tinted spectacles and half full glasses!
FWIW, I think you're probably right. Well, I hope so...given my pitiful lack of seniority!
FWIW, I think you're probably right. Well, I hope so...given my pitiful lack of seniority!
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...and the fella's at pp24 have to retire at some point (2011 discussed as being the next big surge),
The Oct 2006 legislation allowed the 55s to now stay on... until they are 65 
NoD
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I think what Bus319 was intimating when he spoke of 2011 was that potentially a number of flight crew might not choose to go all the way to 65 but instead bow out at 60 thus creating some movement.
CB
CB
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I hate to ask, but is anyone getting tired of swimming.I've only got a few months left before my arms stop flapping.....
JB
Might have to take the championship seriously now, bit hot in the desert though.
JB
Might have to take the championship seriously now, bit hot in the desert though.
Click on this link for information dated 01 May 09: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ml#post4900555
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Guys and Girls,
As much as it is a difficult time for all of us, no matter what airline or industry we are with at the moment, I think, for our own sanity we need to keep some level heads here.
Without pulling any punches:
1. The hold pool is about 80 - 100 strong according to the last information I had (not sure of the accuracy to be honest though).
2. Have the top 500 been asked to take "Early Retirement" or "Redundancy". There is a subtle legal difference. The reason its the top and not bottom 500 is quite simple: salary costs. This top 16% of the seniority list will be earning some comfortable cash on old, relatively inefficient for BA, contracts. If they leave then this may add an extra level of financial flexibility.
3. Airbus orders are not halting. Whether or not they are parked up is a different question.
4. The situation is definately not rosey and yes, I think we do need to be worried.
5. One main reason, in my humble opinion, we received the last email from JM slightly earlier than planned is because people may have been hassling Cranebank. They will get back to us - unless you are within a month of your hold pool expiry it wont really be of much use to be on the phone everyday asking for an update.
6. The pool has been extended once. As far as I'm aware this is unprecedented. They are keen to keep hold of "the right pilots" they identified on our round of recruitment. Obviously, situations change and personally, I think 18 months is about the limit before some form of informal chat would be required; just to check on aspirations and career state.
7. Cost of recruitment is c.£1000 per pilot. With £100k of investment sat in a pool, if I was a bean counter, I would want to hold on to that for as long as possible.
8. My best bit of advice to anyone NOT lucky enough to be in line flying at the moment: find out someway of working with the airlines/flying in general. Push yourself about to get a dispatching job, ticket desk, baggage handling, blinking anything. As long as you are working in the industry (in whatever form that may take), your committment to "the cause" will show through should any re-tread interviews happen.
Finally, there are definately troubled times ahead. The worst thing we can do is be completely pessimistic.
Chaps and Chapesses, we are all pilots. We are paid to take a pragmatic approach to problems. Lets just bear that in mind and not get too wrapped up in what may or may not happen in 6 months time: aviation is a VERY fluid industry.
BS
As much as it is a difficult time for all of us, no matter what airline or industry we are with at the moment, I think, for our own sanity we need to keep some level heads here.
Without pulling any punches:
1. The hold pool is about 80 - 100 strong according to the last information I had (not sure of the accuracy to be honest though).
2. Have the top 500 been asked to take "Early Retirement" or "Redundancy". There is a subtle legal difference. The reason its the top and not bottom 500 is quite simple: salary costs. This top 16% of the seniority list will be earning some comfortable cash on old, relatively inefficient for BA, contracts. If they leave then this may add an extra level of financial flexibility.
3. Airbus orders are not halting. Whether or not they are parked up is a different question.
4. The situation is definately not rosey and yes, I think we do need to be worried.
5. One main reason, in my humble opinion, we received the last email from JM slightly earlier than planned is because people may have been hassling Cranebank. They will get back to us - unless you are within a month of your hold pool expiry it wont really be of much use to be on the phone everyday asking for an update.
6. The pool has been extended once. As far as I'm aware this is unprecedented. They are keen to keep hold of "the right pilots" they identified on our round of recruitment. Obviously, situations change and personally, I think 18 months is about the limit before some form of informal chat would be required; just to check on aspirations and career state.
7. Cost of recruitment is c.£1000 per pilot. With £100k of investment sat in a pool, if I was a bean counter, I would want to hold on to that for as long as possible.
8. My best bit of advice to anyone NOT lucky enough to be in line flying at the moment: find out someway of working with the airlines/flying in general. Push yourself about to get a dispatching job, ticket desk, baggage handling, blinking anything. As long as you are working in the industry (in whatever form that may take), your committment to "the cause" will show through should any re-tread interviews happen.
Finally, there are definately troubled times ahead. The worst thing we can do is be completely pessimistic.
Chaps and Chapesses, we are all pilots. We are paid to take a pragmatic approach to problems. Lets just bear that in mind and not get too wrapped up in what may or may not happen in 6 months time: aviation is a VERY fluid industry.
BS
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A few facts here. It is voluntary redundancy. It is not just the top 500 that it is available to - merely that they will be the first to get the letter - that will not preclude any pilot without a letter from applying or being accepted for the scheme. The cost of recruitment is a red herring, the total cost of those in the pool is less than that being offered to one PP24 person to go. Deliveries of new Airbus aircraft have already been accounted for and will not alter pilot numbers. As cost savings achieved by this scheme will only cover the fiscal years 0910 and 1011 there will be no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest - else the costs will have to be recovered elsewhere. Those are facts.
2x767 and 3x747 likely to be parked up this winter or maybe earlier.
Sadly this does not look good for those swimming at the moment - but it may well be prudent to keep extending the time for those in the pool as when BA needs pilots it will need them suddenly - that is the nature of airline recruitment.
Good luck to all swimmers, take the advice about taking any job in aviation.
2x767 and 3x747 likely to be parked up this winter or maybe earlier.
Sadly this does not look good for those swimming at the moment - but it may well be prudent to keep extending the time for those in the pool as when BA needs pilots it will need them suddenly - that is the nature of airline recruitment.
Good luck to all swimmers, take the advice about taking any job in aviation.
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Being in such a fluid industry I do not think statements such as 'no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest' help anyone. That is not a 'fact', it is opinion.
Rewind one year and ask BA when they would predict the next time that voluntary redundancies would become imperative and recruitment halted. I can guarantee that the answer would not have been 'in the next 8 months.' The recovery speed is as unpredictable as the rate at which we went into recession - we are in uncharted waters.
Things are bad, there is no question, but there is simply no point in second guessing.
Good luck to everyone out there swimming and chin up to those guys who aren't currently getting any flying work.
Rewind one year and ask BA when they would predict the next time that voluntary redundancies would become imperative and recruitment halted. I can guarantee that the answer would not have been 'in the next 8 months.' The recovery speed is as unpredictable as the rate at which we went into recession - we are in uncharted waters.
Things are bad, there is no question, but there is simply no point in second guessing.
Good luck to everyone out there swimming and chin up to those guys who aren't currently getting any flying work.
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I do not think statements such as 'no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest' help anyone. That is not a 'fact', it is opinion.
It is a stated company position, and is the 'key' to allowing the volountary severance arrangements to proceed. The company simply will not tolerate any severance if they anticipate 'backfilling' those positions within the stated period (Apr 2011). It would be financial stupidity!
The severance offer is simply a tool for BA/BALPA to determine what 'productivity improvements' (as opposed to salary cuts) could be used towards, our cost saving target, In other words they will be stripping these jobs out of the system for good!
This is different, and possibly additional to, redundancies!
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Todays update from management appears to paint an even worse picture than before. B777 is currently carrying surplus pilots, however this will be rectified when the delayed orders are delivered. B747 will be in surplus when at least two more jets are grounded in the winter. B757/767 will be in surplus at the same time for the same reason. A320/B737 at LGW will be in surplus at the same time for the same reason. A320 should be about right as things stand at the moment, HOWEVER, this may change if the company are allowed to simply suspend LHR routes under the 80/20 alleviation.
BA don't have any other fleets.
As stated earlier, the Voluntary Redundancy program is purely a mechanism to allow the pilots to strip costs out of the system by improved productivity. It was never designed to cope with a pilot surplus. Other measures will have to be found to address the probable reduction in flying volume.
BA don't have any other fleets.
As stated earlier, the Voluntary Redundancy program is purely a mechanism to allow the pilots to strip costs out of the system by improved productivity. It was never designed to cope with a pilot surplus. Other measures will have to be found to address the probable reduction in flying volume.
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Tandem rotor,
Clearly you are currently employed by BA, as this is hot off the press. I am pleased that you are sharing with us the latest information, but at the same time I dont quite understand your thinking. Surely the whole reason for BA management using VR, unpaid leave etc is to alleviate the surplus problem by targeting the top 500. From a reliable source I have heard figures of around 100 as being the current surplus which will obviously increase if BA's network shrinks further. Saying that I am pretty sure 1/5 will take the VR offer if it goes through, possibly more. Of course people will have a vairety of reasons whether they stay or carry on.
I though on the other hand dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture for those currently swimming in the pool. BA have made it very clear that whilst they are keen to meet the budgets set they are also focussed on being able to meet the surge when the markets pick up, which they will. Hence the unprecedented decision to abandon the annual limit of the hold pool.
I very much doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the cards just yet, as if you had read BA's recent news break it was primarily aimed at hurrying along the pilots who are considering leave or VR so that they can then plan the next move. In other words I think they hope VR to solve the current surplus.
To all those in the pool, I think we should just remember that ANYTHING can happen in this business....
Clearly you are currently employed by BA, as this is hot off the press. I am pleased that you are sharing with us the latest information, but at the same time I dont quite understand your thinking. Surely the whole reason for BA management using VR, unpaid leave etc is to alleviate the surplus problem by targeting the top 500. From a reliable source I have heard figures of around 100 as being the current surplus which will obviously increase if BA's network shrinks further. Saying that I am pretty sure 1/5 will take the VR offer if it goes through, possibly more. Of course people will have a vairety of reasons whether they stay or carry on.
I though on the other hand dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture for those currently swimming in the pool. BA have made it very clear that whilst they are keen to meet the budgets set they are also focussed on being able to meet the surge when the markets pick up, which they will. Hence the unprecedented decision to abandon the annual limit of the hold pool.
I very much doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the cards just yet, as if you had read BA's recent news break it was primarily aimed at hurrying along the pilots who are considering leave or VR so that they can then plan the next move. In other words I think they hope VR to solve the current surplus.
To all those in the pool, I think we should just remember that ANYTHING can happen in this business....