Summer only Commands!
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Summer only Commands!
It is rumoured that my company is looking to upgrade some F/O's for Summer only, then put them back in the RHS for the remainder of the year!!
I'm sure the F/O's in question will jump at the chance, as most, but what about the implications of this?
ps What is the CAA's line on this?
I'm sure the F/O's in question will jump at the chance, as most, but what about the implications of this?
- Safety Implications - Straight in at the deep end. Summer flying then expected to operate as an F/O for the rest of the year (or both as and when required!!).
- CRM Issues (=Safety issues) - You've been operating as a Captain all Summer, then your back in the RHS as an F/O. Where is the Authority gradient now?
- Pay issues - You go onto Captains wages, then back onto F/O wages.....
- Seasonal issues - Like most Airlines, especially in Summer, Captains and F/O's are expexted to be flexible. What happens if your company is short of Captains one week when you are now back to the RHS, will they expect you to fly as a Captain? (I'll bet they will)
- Line checks - Are you checked out as a Captain or an F/O, or both.....????
- Not to mention the atmosphere such Commands will create between crews!!!
ps What is the CAA's line on this?
Last edited by CAT1 REVERSION; 3rd Oct 2008 at 10:31.
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With respect JW411, we are not in America!
I heard that this type of thing had been tried by other operators and the CAA stopped it. Can anyone confirm this, or if any other UK operators do this!
I heard that this type of thing had been tried by other operators and the CAA stopped it. Can anyone confirm this, or if any other UK operators do this!
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The company I worked for had this arrangement during the Gulf War downturn.
I was pleased to get command experience , welcomed the extra money and enjoyed flying with co-pilots who I would otherwise not have known.
As far as CRM issues are concerned it was a lesson in diplomacy fom both side once the summer period ended.
If you are a professional aviator then there will be no problems, enjoy the summer and who knows maybe the economy will have picked up and you stay where you are , or at worst your company goes down the pan and you have the experience to get a command elsewhere.
It is also rather like the issue of pay cuts , enforced unpaid leave, the airlines really do not know what is around the corner for summer 2009 , they are hedging their bets and trying to hang on to as many crews as possible to take advantage of any other failures.
I was pleased to get command experience , welcomed the extra money and enjoyed flying with co-pilots who I would otherwise not have known.
As far as CRM issues are concerned it was a lesson in diplomacy fom both side once the summer period ended.
If you are a professional aviator then there will be no problems, enjoy the summer and who knows maybe the economy will have picked up and you stay where you are , or at worst your company goes down the pan and you have the experience to get a command elsewhere.
It is also rather like the issue of pay cuts , enforced unpaid leave, the airlines really do not know what is around the corner for summer 2009 , they are hedging their bets and trying to hang on to as many crews as possible to take advantage of any other failures.
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Seasonal Captains- Seasonal pilots!
Guys lets wake up!
All these because the oil price went up?
I'll assume when the price goes down and the airlines will breathe financially again they start hiring permanent Captains!
Dream on!
Guys lets wake up!
All these because the oil price went up?
I'll assume when the price goes down and the airlines will breathe financially again they start hiring permanent Captains!
Dream on!
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Tsk, tsk. So many young whippersnappers around these days, who haven't read 'Fate is the Hunter' by Ernest K Gann.
If you think seasonal commands is something new then you really should read the book. Nothing has changed in this business since those early days of airline flying.
Until seniority is abolished as a standard for deciding who is next in line for command assessment this will continue. Is it bad? Per se, probably not as it does give eligible senior effoh's the chance to experience the responsibility of command.
When the good times roll on, they'll be well prepared for the job and eventually they'll have a big enough cushion of more junior pilots to keep them comfortably ensconced in their lofty position of responsibility.
If you think seasonal commands is something new then you really should read the book. Nothing has changed in this business since those early days of airline flying.
Until seniority is abolished as a standard for deciding who is next in line for command assessment this will continue. Is it bad? Per se, probably not as it does give eligible senior effoh's the chance to experience the responsibility of command.
When the good times roll on, they'll be well prepared for the job and eventually they'll have a big enough cushion of more junior pilots to keep them comfortably ensconced in their lofty position of responsibility.
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CAT 1
If it bothers you that much, in the immortal words of Zammo......just say no.
If it bothers you that much, in the immortal words of Zammo......just say no.
It doesn't bother me in that way, as it doesn't affect me (although I know of some it will). I was trying to find out if this kind of thing is common practice, and are there any other UK operators applying this policy - if so how has it gone (someone told me BMIBaby did/do this)!
Tsk, tsk. So many young whippersnappers around these days, who haven't read 'Fate is the Hunter' by Ernest K Gann.
Alas, I'm too long in the tooth to class myself as a "whippersnapper".
Anyway,
Thanks to those whom have added constructive replies.
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Seasonal Captains- Seasonal pilots!
Guys lets wake up!
All these because the oil price went up?
Guys lets wake up!
All these because the oil price went up?
Now, word from on high is....no more contract pilots.
Sounds good, however, they still want the same expensive flexibility, but now, do it on the "cheap' internally...having your cake and eating it comes to mind.
Now....as Cat 1 asks.... has anybody out there got 1st hand experience of this practice in a "UK" operator ??
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If you're talking about Monarch, it's nothing new. They did it several times in the 80s and 90s when times were hard.
BALPA was recognised by the company and it still happened, so what is all this bull we hear when something similar happens in RYR?
There is nothing new in this business.
BALPA was recognised by the company and it still happened, so what is all this bull we hear when something similar happens in RYR?
There is nothing new in this business.
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Flybe were doing it 2 years ago on the jet fleet. Other than ruffled feathers from some DHC8 pilots I don't believe there was any other issue. The guys involved all got permanent commands later and already had some experience to bring by then.
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No, I think that this is very bad.
1. You get an inexperienced Captain on the left seat, and at the end of the season an out-of-practice First Officer on the right seat. Not a safe-and-smooth thing to do.
2. The guy who has to return to the right seat at the end of the season certainly won't be very happy about it. This may also cause CRM-problems later on.
If it is normal practice in the USA, it shouldn't be an example to any other companies elsewhere. The CAA is absolutely right to prevent such a thing from happening.
IMHO, if an airline believes a First Officer to be ready for upgrade, then he/she should be made a Captain, and a new guy employed to take the FO-position.
1. You get an inexperienced Captain on the left seat, and at the end of the season an out-of-practice First Officer on the right seat. Not a safe-and-smooth thing to do.
2. The guy who has to return to the right seat at the end of the season certainly won't be very happy about it. This may also cause CRM-problems later on.
If it is normal practice in the USA, it shouldn't be an example to any other companies elsewhere. The CAA is absolutely right to prevent such a thing from happening.
IMHO, if an airline believes a First Officer to be ready for upgrade, then he/she should be made a Captain, and a new guy employed to take the FO-position.
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IMHO, if an airline believes a First Officer to be ready for upgrade, then he/she should be made a Captain, and a new guy employed to take the FO-position.
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"The CAA is absolutely right to prevent such a thing from happening."
I don't think the CAA have any powers to prevent it happening. Even if they did, they are to spineless to exercise them.
I don't think the CAA have any powers to prevent it happening. Even if they did, they are to spineless to exercise them.
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Ref the 'Zammo' post, just a sad flashback moment tbh.
I am, however, concerned by the CRM aspect espoused by a couple of posters in this thread. One would hope that your professionalism and inherent CRM principles mitigates any perceived authority gradient issues. As for the end of season demotion, if the guy knows the score, there should be little to beef about. If anything, it should add considerable value to their FO role as they will have had that brief insight to the 'loneliness of command'.
In a previous lilfe, we often flew with 2 skippers, one of whom would be designated FO for the tour. Admittedly a fairly close knit set-up where we all knew one another, but there were never any such problems. Gadzooks, we even swopped seats!
Still, the CAA aspects etc not really my bag, so I shall retire....bonsoir.
I am, however, concerned by the CRM aspect espoused by a couple of posters in this thread. One would hope that your professionalism and inherent CRM principles mitigates any perceived authority gradient issues. As for the end of season demotion, if the guy knows the score, there should be little to beef about. If anything, it should add considerable value to their FO role as they will have had that brief insight to the 'loneliness of command'.
In a previous lilfe, we often flew with 2 skippers, one of whom would be designated FO for the tour. Admittedly a fairly close knit set-up where we all knew one another, but there were never any such problems. Gadzooks, we even swopped seats!
Still, the CAA aspects etc not really my bag, so I shall retire....bonsoir.
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We (through BALPA) said no to temp commands a couple of years ago, all be it times were good.
We also came to an agreement of a maximum of 15 commands to be taken up in the Summer by our colleagues from across the pond.
If our CC were negotiating this now, it may have turned out slightlty differently, we might have settled for temp commands, but for a maximum of one season....who knows
We also came to an agreement of a maximum of 15 commands to be taken up in the Summer by our colleagues from across the pond.
If our CC were negotiating this now, it may have turned out slightlty differently, we might have settled for temp commands, but for a maximum of one season....who knows
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An earlier post alluded to temp commands at bmi baby - I'm certain these did not occur but we did have some contract captains for a while.
Coincidentally, I flew with another captain last night, both of us commented that we felt mildly disorientated whilst acting as PNF in the RHS. A quick RHS check in the sim every 6 months doesn't adequately prepare you for a full day in the wrong seat.
Coincidentally, I flew with another captain last night, both of us commented that we felt mildly disorientated whilst acting as PNF in the RHS. A quick RHS check in the sim every 6 months doesn't adequately prepare you for a full day in the wrong seat.
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I've been reading all the posts on this thread and the only argument that I find by those, sort of in favour, of this arrangement is that it happened before somewhere!
SO!!!!
Having two captains together is a potential risk that airlines take every now and then in order to address certain issues that may come up in the day-to-day operation!
Imagine this happening to all the airlines because everybody's doing it and all airlines have their low season!
All flights over Europe in the winter- ALL CAPTAINS
An Army full of Generals- The sargeant (FO's)is on leave!
And at the end of the day people should stop thinking like management and start thinking like pilots!
I'm sure no one from management gets a downgrade during the low season and certainly no one from management when they sign up deals with subcontractors and get their fat commission, under the table of course, share it with anyone of the advocates we have on this thread!
SO!!!!
Having two captains together is a potential risk that airlines take every now and then in order to address certain issues that may come up in the day-to-day operation!
Imagine this happening to all the airlines because everybody's doing it and all airlines have their low season!
All flights over Europe in the winter- ALL CAPTAINS
An Army full of Generals- The sargeant (FO's)is on leave!
And at the end of the day people should stop thinking like management and start thinking like pilots!
I'm sure no one from management gets a downgrade during the low season and certainly no one from management when they sign up deals with subcontractors and get their fat commission, under the table of course, share it with anyone of the advocates we have on this thread!
Last edited by levantes; 4th Oct 2008 at 12:33.
