RAF to Airline - Quality of Life
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Good post and good advice Rainboe. I've seen a few of these attitudes from ex-military guys down the years. On the other hand I've seen excellent ex-military people also. They're mainly the ones who have the ability to adapt to their new flying environment.
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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It's a funny thing, but the type of arrogance you can get from some service people is unique to that background. It is very unusual, but when it is there, it is awful. You may be a QFI on Hercs and done instruction on Hawks and flown with the Arrows and been an examiner....all very good, but there is a relatively new skill set to adapt to, and operational procedures to learn, none of which bear any similarity or have any hope of development or improvement from a service background. So it is well to enter a new way of life with respect for the peers and experience involved.
My own experience of looking the other way is that some of the worst handlers I have ever seen are former single seat fast jet pilots. Chucking a Harrier around solo does not create the discipline needed for precision instrument flying, or provide any of the skills and judgement needed for successful regular airline ops. Sitting there thinking the guy in the left seat is less qualified than you will lead to a bad flying experience- it will show.
My own experience of looking the other way is that some of the worst handlers I have ever seen are former single seat fast jet pilots. Chucking a Harrier around solo does not create the discipline needed for precision instrument flying, or provide any of the skills and judgement needed for successful regular airline ops. Sitting there thinking the guy in the left seat is less qualified than you will lead to a bad flying experience- it will show.
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NSF and the 2 posts immediately above offer excellant advice.
I'm ex RAF, within the last 4 years and joined the orange empire. Personaly I really enjoy it. I work no more than 14/15 days a month and am home virtually every night so its great for family life. The pay is good and you do not have all the additional hassles that go with service life. Just pitch up do a good professional job and go home again. If you want more you can look to get invoved but there is no requirement to do so. My base is even pretty good socially and people help each other out. I moved to the left seat in 18 months and will have a shot at becoming a trainer in the next few years so progression is good too.
Like the others I would caution about any feelings of superiority you may have as they will be misplaced. I have met some very capable commercial chaps and chapesses who I have learnt, and continue to learn, a great deal from. As with most jobs its about working hard and having the right approach. If you do that you will really enjoy it and people will work hard to assist you in achieving your goals.
Good luck
I'm ex RAF, within the last 4 years and joined the orange empire. Personaly I really enjoy it. I work no more than 14/15 days a month and am home virtually every night so its great for family life. The pay is good and you do not have all the additional hassles that go with service life. Just pitch up do a good professional job and go home again. If you want more you can look to get invoved but there is no requirement to do so. My base is even pretty good socially and people help each other out. I moved to the left seat in 18 months and will have a shot at becoming a trainer in the next few years so progression is good too.
Like the others I would caution about any feelings of superiority you may have as they will be misplaced. I have met some very capable commercial chaps and chapesses who I have learnt, and continue to learn, a great deal from. As with most jobs its about working hard and having the right approach. If you do that you will really enjoy it and people will work hard to assist you in achieving your goals.
Good luck
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Attitude
I think Rainboe overstates his case rather. The tone of his posts implies the only people with a bad attitude are those who come from a military background. Nonsense. There are good bad and indifferent from all walks of life. The most arrogant guy I have ever flown with was an all through commercial guy. As for the mindset for precision instrument flying. An ILS or a hold in an airliner is just the same as an ILS or a hold in a military aircraft. Mostly in an airliner you will do them with the autopilot coupled anyway. All experience is valuable. To say that flying a FJ would provide you with no skills or judgement that would prove useful in airliner is rubbish.
As for copilots who feel they are better qualified and able. A good captain in the LHS will recognise and foster the abilities of the person in the RHS. He should not assume that they are less qualified and able than himself.
Out of all the posts the most evident thing is that arrogance is a bad thing when you start a new job. Just like any new job when and if you join an airline you will have to prove that you are up to it and that you can fit in. An airline is a very different environment from the military. In fact in day to day terms airlines are way more efficient in the way they operate the ac. However, like the military they have SOPs and methods developed from experience to suit the requirements of the operation. Adapting to those is just being professional.
I have been in the military and in an airline. They are different and I have enjoyed both immensely. The second paragraph of NSFs post is spot on. Enjoy.
As for copilots who feel they are better qualified and able. A good captain in the LHS will recognise and foster the abilities of the person in the RHS. He should not assume that they are less qualified and able than himself.
Out of all the posts the most evident thing is that arrogance is a bad thing when you start a new job. Just like any new job when and if you join an airline you will have to prove that you are up to it and that you can fit in. An airline is a very different environment from the military. In fact in day to day terms airlines are way more efficient in the way they operate the ac. However, like the military they have SOPs and methods developed from experience to suit the requirements of the operation. Adapting to those is just being professional.
I have been in the military and in an airline. They are different and I have enjoyed both immensely. The second paragraph of NSFs post is spot on. Enjoy.
Está servira para distraerle.
One enters this thread with a degree of temerity because one has great respect for the words of Norman Stanley Fletcher and Rainboe, the words of whom need little in the way of further embellishment.
One has, in the past, flown with ex RAF, SAAF and Rhodesian Air Force pilots, in both seats and with pilots from both jet and transport forces' branches.
It would not be too appropriate to comment upon flying skills other than perhaps to say that in airline life an SOP does not, in the day to day operation of an aircraft, allow one as much flexibility as perhaps an air force pilot was accustomed.
The problems. although that might be too harsh a word, have always arisen with the interaction between the air force trained pilot and the civilian trained pilot in a two crew/CRM orientated operation. It does, in the never so humble, behove the air force pilot, upon entering civilian life, to make the effort to accomodate himself to that which he finds there. This is perhaps somewhat achieved by regarding the transition to civilian flying as a different learning curve, but of an upwards direction.
I think too that it is probably fair to say that there is sometimes some considerable bias to be found in civvie street towards air force personnel whose training might be perceived as having been effectively paid for by the chap sitting next to him who will quite likely be a dedicated pilot with a huge debt acquiredd from funding his own training. If this were the case, it would no doubt perhaps be especially galling in the case of an F/O sitting with a military DEC in the LHS, which of course, is where so many ex service pilots think they should be sitting; which in turn is apt to compound the problem when they find that they are not.
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 14th Jul 2008 at 09:00.
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just a quick reply. I left the RAF a few years ago and tried my hand at a couple of civilian outfits. I was really impressed with the standards that i saw. However, it wasnt for me as i needed a dynamic environment to work in (did NJ - great fun!) so left and became self employed within the maritime world. It is very closley linked to aviation albeit slower but it still provides the challenges most of crave. My suggestion to you is open your eyes away from the cockpit - it is not the be all, and in fact you may just give yourself the the change you really need when leaving the Service. very best of luck - now get out of the cockpit and start living!
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Good morning all,
I have been reading this thread with interest as I am in a similar position to PaaT, although a couple of years younger. I am due to leave the RAF next year after a rewarding 18 years but my priority now is to give my family some stability until the kids grow up.
Because of my leaving date I will probably have to buy a house (in the southwest) to get the kids in a school before I am ‘hopefully’ offered a job. How amenable are the airlines in accommodating basing requests?
Rgds
I have been reading this thread with interest as I am in a similar position to PaaT, although a couple of years younger. I am due to leave the RAF next year after a rewarding 18 years but my priority now is to give my family some stability until the kids grow up.
Because of my leaving date I will probably have to buy a house (in the southwest) to get the kids in a school before I am ‘hopefully’ offered a job. How amenable are the airlines in accommodating basing requests?
Rgds
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PAAT/Albert Another
I made the jump last year (also Albert FI and CFS QFI). I was still enjoying the Mob but was time to find something new to do.
I spoke to a lot of of people from different types of jobs and went for Netjets, my reasons were that it looked like the kind of flying that would continue to be interesting for some time. Much like flying Albert, you have the whole package to deal with ie, fuel/pax/catering/perf/delays/bags etc, and all the time to different destinations, never knowing where you are going to start your next day or indeed end the one you are currently on. I find all this keeps it fresh. What you do know is that you will be back home on day 6 at your gateway before 23:59.
Pay is good.
Quick time to command.
The ability to live in around 42 cities in Europe, and make ad hoc changes so if you fancy 5 days in Barcelona you can and end your 'tour' there and meet the missus off her Ezy Flight. This allows you to take short European breaks and save your leave for the long haul destinations. (This summer so far hoildayed to Rome and Amsterdam flights on the company). I know of guys living in Chamony in the winter and on the Spanish coast in the summer.
Overall I am really enjoying it so far, all the pilots I have flown with have been great guys and gals, I am making social friends in the company with guys based out of my gateway. The crews seem to me to have a similar mentality to how we got on with life on the Albert fleet.
As for experience I have flown with guys who have less overall, but my attitude is that they are in the LHS and have more experience in this job than me, however we can all learn from each other and I find that this is the attitude of the guys I have flown with.
Sorry for the long winded reply, hope this helps, PM me if you want to discuss more.
I spoke to a lot of of people from different types of jobs and went for Netjets, my reasons were that it looked like the kind of flying that would continue to be interesting for some time. Much like flying Albert, you have the whole package to deal with ie, fuel/pax/catering/perf/delays/bags etc, and all the time to different destinations, never knowing where you are going to start your next day or indeed end the one you are currently on. I find all this keeps it fresh. What you do know is that you will be back home on day 6 at your gateway before 23:59.
Pay is good.
Quick time to command.
The ability to live in around 42 cities in Europe, and make ad hoc changes so if you fancy 5 days in Barcelona you can and end your 'tour' there and meet the missus off her Ezy Flight. This allows you to take short European breaks and save your leave for the long haul destinations. (This summer so far hoildayed to Rome and Amsterdam flights on the company). I know of guys living in Chamony in the winter and on the Spanish coast in the summer.
Overall I am really enjoying it so far, all the pilots I have flown with have been great guys and gals, I am making social friends in the company with guys based out of my gateway. The crews seem to me to have a similar mentality to how we got on with life on the Albert fleet.
As for experience I have flown with guys who have less overall, but my attitude is that they are in the LHS and have more experience in this job than me, however we can all learn from each other and I find that this is the attitude of the guys I have flown with.
Sorry for the long winded reply, hope this helps, PM me if you want to discuss more.
