Time Limits - Illegal Practices
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Time Limits - Illegal Practices
Hi,
Was wondering if anyone could shed some light on an issue currently centering round my employer.
A couple of pilots in my company (junior level) have been asked to work from Airport A to Airport B to Airport C and then pasenger back to Airport A upon arrival (total duty 26 hours - however you sign off duty at Airport C).
Does the CAA have any restrictions on this (the duty time from A to C via B is approximately 15 hours), is it illegal, do they have to be offered minimum rest in a hotel in C upon arrival? Will it cause issues with their licencing?
The reason this is done is that the layover in C is one week, and the flight time back to base doesn't require a 'heavy' (3) crew. It is purely a cost saving excercise and also allows the company to have access to that pilot again within 24 hours of their arrival back at base (Airport A).
Sorry for my candour, but think it prudent to keep my cards close to my chest with respect to the company, destinations and my collegues.
Was wondering if anyone could shed some light on an issue currently centering round my employer.
A couple of pilots in my company (junior level) have been asked to work from Airport A to Airport B to Airport C and then pasenger back to Airport A upon arrival (total duty 26 hours - however you sign off duty at Airport C).
Does the CAA have any restrictions on this (the duty time from A to C via B is approximately 15 hours), is it illegal, do they have to be offered minimum rest in a hotel in C upon arrival? Will it cause issues with their licencing?
The reason this is done is that the layover in C is one week, and the flight time back to base doesn't require a 'heavy' (3) crew. It is purely a cost saving excercise and also allows the company to have access to that pilot again within 24 hours of their arrival back at base (Airport A).
Sorry for my candour, but think it prudent to keep my cards close to my chest with respect to the company, destinations and my collegues.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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The difference between between flight duty time and duty time...
If flight duty (from sign-in to on-blocks at airport C) exceeds your flight duty limits - then it's illegal, and they should stand down at airport B or operate heavy crew.
No company that I know of imposes any restrictions on duty time (apart from e.g. 50 hours a week, 2000 hours a year etc.) - so if you can make it on-blocks at airport C within your flight duty limits, it should be OK.
Of course they'll be knackered when the make it back to A, but they can look forward to a 26 hour rest period, so could be worse. Oh, and if your lot have 50 hours a week, they've just used more than 50% of that weeks allowance, so some N/As might be heading their way
No company that I know of imposes any restrictions on duty time (apart from e.g. 50 hours a week, 2000 hours a year etc.) - so if you can make it on-blocks at airport C within your flight duty limits, it should be OK.
Of course they'll be knackered when the make it back to A, but they can look forward to a 26 hour rest period, so could be worse. Oh, and if your lot have 50 hours a week, they've just used more than 50% of that weeks allowance, so some N/As might be heading their way
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There isn't any danger of arriving at B and being over duty (17 hours max unless at the captains discretion and always with a heavy crew in our case).
We don't have 50 hours a week only 100 per month, 900 per year but I know of a couple of pilots actually logging 105/110.
We don't have 50 hours a week only 100 per month, 900 per year but I know of a couple of pilots actually logging 105/110.
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dream
just duty of care
it's / was a common practice in the UK at the end of season. Many airlines got round it by throwing money at it
You cannot sign off at C in the UK, but you haven't specified if your talking UK CAA
just duty of care
it's / was a common practice in the UK at the end of season. Many airlines got round it by throwing money at it
You cannot sign off at C in the UK, but you haven't specified if your talking UK CAA
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One of the pilots in quesiton holds a UK CAA licence as do I (I haven't had this particular trip rostered as yet) another holds another JAA licence.
The company we work for is yet another JAA state.
The company we work for is yet another JAA state.
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My understanding of CAP371 is this. You can operate your FDP as defined by sectors/start time and the FDP finishes at on chocks at airport C. The company can take any route back to A they like. As far as I can tell, they could position you to the other side of the world via LHR T5 and that would still be legal. Immoral, but legal.
Remember it is the Flying Duty period that finishes at C, not the total duty period. All that is then required is a rest period equal to the total duty before commencing another duty.
My company will provide HOTAC at home base if the total duty exceeds 16 hours. Your company has a duty of care to you. You may not be fit to drive home after an extended duty. Remind them of this.
Remember it is the Flying Duty period that finishes at C, not the total duty period. All that is then required is a rest period equal to the total duty before commencing another duty.
My company will provide HOTAC at home base if the total duty exceeds 16 hours. Your company has a duty of care to you. You may not be fit to drive home after an extended duty. Remind them of this.
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My understanding of CAP371 is this. You can operate your FDP as defined by sectors/start time and the FDP finishes at on chocks at airport C. The company can take any route back to A they like. As far as I can tell, they could position you to the other side of the world via LHR T5 and that would still be legal. Immoral, but legal.
You duty limits are governed by the state that you are in not the one where your licence was issued otherwise different nationality flight crews would cause all sorts of problems when working together.
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Sounds Italian to me. Been there, done that.
Now let's cut all the horse manure and start thinking like people (human beings) and stop all this silly nonsense of trying to justify it by grey rules. FTL's are just that. FLIGHT Duty limits. Overall duty limits are to be used to avoid fatigue by combining Flight and ground duties. They are limits.
However, back to the human animal case. Assuming waking up at least 3 hours before report for flight to A,B,C. 1 hour turn round; flight back; collect belongings; try to remember where you've parked your car; collect car and then drive 1 hour home = >30 hours no sleep. No employer, or anyone else is going to tell me not have any sleep in a proper bed for 30 hours. I have refused such rosters in 3 different airlines. I admit, it helps being a captain. Only one time did I agree, based on a double business class seat being available and 3 days off on return. Didn't get asked again.
For god's sake gentlemen, stand up for yourselves as professional non-robotic human beings who need respecting. It is this kind of dubious rostering and acceptance of the same that has driven to quality of life down to what it is. Just try to think of any of your friends in another industry where their boss who even dream about asking them to work such a period. I know my friends thought I was nuts for doing what we were legally allowed to do by FTL's. Going to these extremes is absurd.
As I said, difficult as an F/O. What's the captain doing on this roster?
Now let's cut all the horse manure and start thinking like people (human beings) and stop all this silly nonsense of trying to justify it by grey rules. FTL's are just that. FLIGHT Duty limits. Overall duty limits are to be used to avoid fatigue by combining Flight and ground duties. They are limits.
However, back to the human animal case. Assuming waking up at least 3 hours before report for flight to A,B,C. 1 hour turn round; flight back; collect belongings; try to remember where you've parked your car; collect car and then drive 1 hour home = >30 hours no sleep. No employer, or anyone else is going to tell me not have any sleep in a proper bed for 30 hours. I have refused such rosters in 3 different airlines. I admit, it helps being a captain. Only one time did I agree, based on a double business class seat being available and 3 days off on return. Didn't get asked again.
For god's sake gentlemen, stand up for yourselves as professional non-robotic human beings who need respecting. It is this kind of dubious rostering and acceptance of the same that has driven to quality of life down to what it is. Just try to think of any of your friends in another industry where their boss who even dream about asking them to work such a period. I know my friends thought I was nuts for doing what we were legally allowed to do by FTL's. Going to these extremes is absurd.
As I said, difficult as an F/O. What's the captain doing on this roster?
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In the operater manual of your company is stated how much duty time you may work in 1 shift, and with the corresponding rest periods. And it is not only the responsibility of the company but also of the pilot itself, that you don't exceed this times.
If it happens that because of a delay at airport B you know you won't be landing within your duty time limits at airport C you have the right to refuse the flight but you may chose to accept it, but the company has to file a report to the local authorities when such an event occurs.
But any normal company has a department keeping track of this and they will make sure they will operate within the rules since this items are being checked regulary by the authorities.
If it happens that because of a delay at airport B you know you won't be landing within your duty time limits at airport C you have the right to refuse the flight but you may chose to accept it, but the company has to file a report to the local authorities when such an event occurs.
But any normal company has a department keeping track of this and they will make sure they will operate within the rules since this items are being checked regulary by the authorities.
