Rosterd Duty Hours
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: britain
Rosterd Duty Hours
Afternoon all
Out of curiosity, do UK Airlines Crewing Agreements normally stipulate the number of duty and flying hours which may be rostered over a period? I presume you are not normally rostered to CAP371 max as there would be no leeway for delays.
Examples appreciated.
Out of curiosity, do UK Airlines Crewing Agreements normally stipulate the number of duty and flying hours which may be rostered over a period? I presume you are not normally rostered to CAP371 max as there would be no leeway for delays.
Examples appreciated.
Alba Gu Brath
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 745
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From: Merseyside
There is leeway built into CAP371 already for 7 day duty hours. The maximum that can be planned for pilots is '55hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when a rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays'.
There is no leeway as such in the 14 and 28 day rules, however since most crew will be rostered for standby duties it is often the norm to reduce or remove the planned standby's if duty hours are exceeded. Also, a lot of operators don't fully utilise the fact that early standby's count as 50% for duty hour totals if the crew member is not disturbed during the standby. So whilst some crew might look like they are being rostered to the max duty hours, in reality they are probably some way below the limits.
Realistically luddite there will be a balancing of hours over extended periods. It is legally impossible to roster someone to the limits of duty hours for too many periods. Crew are all restricted to 2,000 hrs a year under EU Working Time Directive which works out at 166.67 hrs per 28 days, taking into account 4 weeks leave per year.
There is no leeway as such in the 14 and 28 day rules, however since most crew will be rostered for standby duties it is often the norm to reduce or remove the planned standby's if duty hours are exceeded. Also, a lot of operators don't fully utilise the fact that early standby's count as 50% for duty hour totals if the crew member is not disturbed during the standby. So whilst some crew might look like they are being rostered to the max duty hours, in reality they are probably some way below the limits.
Realistically luddite there will be a balancing of hours over extended periods. It is legally impossible to roster someone to the limits of duty hours for too many periods. Crew are all restricted to 2,000 hrs a year under EU Working Time Directive which works out at 166.67 hrs per 28 days, taking into account 4 weeks leave per year.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
And yet junior docters have just been limited to 48 hour weeks under EU rules. Hm. Seems we might too be far behind them; but then again perhaps not as the national unions do not seem to argue on behalf of those lower down the food chain that the flag carriers who already have local scheduleing agreements.
Regarding the 55 limit and 60 hour extension; that would surely only be possible (unforeseen delays) when starting tha last duty period. Surely you can't have a delay on day 2 and extend day 6 beyond 55hours. the delay is no longer unforeseen as it has already happended.
However, the CAA have (had?) wonderful flexible accounting methods. I always thought the 28 day limt was 100hrs. i.e. you had to land on day 28 at or below 100 hrs. Nice and simple. Oh No it's not! They said you can take off on day 28 if less than 100hrs and land on day 28 with more than 100hrs. Strange but true and I did it for 12 months. Bouncing along landing at 106hrs on day 28, days rest down route, thus reducing once again below 100hrs in 28 days e.g 96hrs rolling, and then landing once again on a new 28 rolling at 107hrs. I always thought CAP 371 was plain speak, but somewhere the bean counters must have got involved and twisted plain english.
Is this anomoly still the case?
Regarding the 55 limit and 60 hour extension; that would surely only be possible (unforeseen delays) when starting tha last duty period. Surely you can't have a delay on day 2 and extend day 6 beyond 55hours. the delay is no longer unforeseen as it has already happended.
However, the CAA have (had?) wonderful flexible accounting methods. I always thought the 28 day limt was 100hrs. i.e. you had to land on day 28 at or below 100 hrs. Nice and simple. Oh No it's not! They said you can take off on day 28 if less than 100hrs and land on day 28 with more than 100hrs. Strange but true and I did it for 12 months. Bouncing along landing at 106hrs on day 28, days rest down route, thus reducing once again below 100hrs in 28 days e.g 96hrs rolling, and then landing once again on a new 28 rolling at 107hrs. I always thought CAP 371 was plain speak, but somewhere the bean counters must have got involved and twisted plain english.
Is this anomoly still the case?
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
Mr. AoP. What a pleasant surprise. Glad you are still in the game. Amazing when you say para 2 is still the same. How is it that so simple a statement can mean something else after all. Also odd that, as it is a legal document, no union has challenged the interpretation. There should not be ambiguity in legal limitation documents.
As for competative with continental cousins; no competition has ever been won based on slave/cheap labour. There is far more to it than that. Oddly, the continental outfits I've worked for had much more draconian FTL's than CAP 371, and they used them, but they still went bust.
As for competative with continental cousins; no competition has ever been won based on slave/cheap labour. There is far more to it than that. Oddly, the continental outfits I've worked for had much more draconian FTL's than CAP 371, and they used them, but they still went bust.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
LORD S. I miss your point. My meaning is the draconian FTL's were far worse, by upto 20 hours per month and 100 per year, that CAP 371. Hence my query that apparent greater possible productivity was automaticaly more competative, but i these cases it meant nothing. C@#p managemnt is always C@#p management and financial consequences follow.
There was, still might be, a UK player whose head of rostering and previous C.P had no idea of productivity. They all thought that the more days/hours you worked you more you must produce. Thus crew rostering was grossly inefficient. All it showed was duty days workd and not what was produced. Time in taxis does not fly passengers.
There was, still might be, a UK player whose head of rostering and previous C.P had no idea of productivity. They all thought that the more days/hours you worked you more you must produce. Thus crew rostering was grossly inefficient. All it showed was duty days workd and not what was produced. Time in taxis does not fly passengers.
Alba Gu Brath
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 745
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From: Merseyside
And yet junior docters have just been limited to 48 hour weeks under EU rules.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: UK
RAT
The CAA answer is that by changing the rosters to avoid what might only be a 1 minute overrun will cause roster disruption. As BT says if you do a 60 hr 7 day week the next is going to be a lot lot less and this is the protection that CAP gives you (hence why unchallenged by a Union).
CAP also now requires a meal opportunity, you've never had it so good (joke)
The CAA answer is that by changing the rosters to avoid what might only be a 1 minute overrun will cause roster disruption. As BT says if you do a 60 hr 7 day week the next is going to be a lot lot less and this is the protection that CAP gives you (hence why unchallenged by a Union).
CAP also now requires a meal opportunity, you've never had it so good (joke)
