Idiotic JAA

[ItsAjob]

I can honestly say after the sitting the 14 exams I was no better an aviator, but one hell of card counter.
Amazing how much useless info you can store and recite from your short term memory!

[saffron]

I am Brit (american mother) took FAA exams first then converted to UK CAA in 1983,essay questions at that time!Same ridiculous exams (plotting etc)use about 10% of knowledge gained.However the exams were intended as a screening process to weed out those who might struggle in this profession.The FAA exams are practical,but in my opinion ridiculously easy.Apparently the FAA & EASA have formed several harmonization boards to look at harmonizing regs on a/c technical regs & flight crew licencing,let's hope something comes of it!

[apruneuk]

In defence of 747, let's just dispel one or two popular myths on this subject:

Firstly, the JAA exams have become just as tick-box as the FAA. I converted an FAA CPL a few years ago and did the JAA theoretical exams via a distance learning course. I can honestly say that I found the study (about 2 hours a day for a year) a pain in the neck but very rewarding. Imagine my surprise when I went to the school for a refresher week before the exams and found out that the residential students in the main were learning "question banks" supplied by their instructors and often bought from other schools.

Nowadays the schools have such a knowledge of the JAA question data base that the 14 exams have essentially become as meaningless as the FAA exams.

Secondly, when I was in the States doing the practical exams (every bit as denmanding as the JAA in my opinion), my instructors in the main had done their CPLs in combination with a 4 year aeronautical sciences degree; a little more demanding than the JAA system! To work for a "Major" in the US you must have a degree and for many new FOs it makes sense to do it in an aviation subject. This largely accounts for the relatively basic theoretical exams in the US.

Both systems have their relative merits and I can honestly say from personal experience that neither are better. Under either system a pilot can gain a piece of paper that says that they are commercially qualified. No sensible operator is going to trust £30 million of jet and several hundred lives to just anyone who holds a commercial ticket. Those that have a sound understanding of the relevant aviation subjects, are personable, responsible, mature, reliable and can actually operate in a safe and expeditious manner in a multi-crew aeroplane will always get a job wherever they trained.

I am also fairly sure that if you have over 5,000 hours or so heavy jet time either authority will issue an exchange multi-crew licence subject to a check ride which can be done as part of a routine LPC. Worth looking in to.

[youngskywalker]

I thought I read somewhere that if you had 1500 hours or more in command of a multi crew jet over a certain weight limit (cannot remember if it was 20 or 30t) then you can get a restricted UK ATPL by passing an LPC.

[C-141Starlifter]

Well this post is more of a statement.....

I am a dual US/Citizen of a European Nation.

I have been looking in to converting my US ATP with multiple type ratings and several thousand hours of flight time.

The conversion process is extremely idiotic, meaningless and bureaucratic in nature, for no reason other than being difficult.

You have to sit in on 14 written test that is designed to be extremely difficult, with a very high failure rate, even after you have proven yourself as an experienced aviator....then the buffoonery is not over yet, you have to take additional check rides in an airplane to prove to the European member states you can fly an airplane.

I have no idea who came up with this rules(read the UK) for the European member states. This does NOT promote additional safety in ANY way or fashion. This only hampers and prevents any safe operations of European aerospace. Right now they hire extreme low time copilots that possess the
JAA license, but with NO experience instead of hiring the best they can from overseas or worse yet park airplanes because of pilot shortage.

I think the European aviation authorities should be ashamed of them self for this legislation and meaningless rule making.
This does not promote any additional measure of safety, other than limiting airlines in Europe from hiring the best qualified pilots they can get. After all this is a global economy. I believe if you have a work permit or citizenship in a EU or European member state, possessing a pilot license from a ICAO or FAA country it should be fairly easy to convert a commercial or ATP license.

The FAA in the USA is very accommodating and helpful in converting a JAA European pilots license. This is ludicrous as I am sure most of my fellow aviators would agree. I am going to file complaints with FAA, and also with congressmen that is involved with the FAA legislation to start retaliation against this unfair practice., the FAA practices very fair and non discriminatory practices regarding this. If you want to work in the US you need a Green Card or Citizenship, something thats very fair.

74,

I feel for you brother. I did the conversion a few years ago and it was nothing but @$$ pain. I however, am not an EU citizen therefore had to arrange the work permit. I saw no way around the conversion issue so I buckled down and completed the process. While I learned very little from the subjects, I got to know the folks in the CAA very well...
I'm quite happy that the conversion is over but moreover, I'm happy to be employed here in Europe. So far it's been extremely satisifying.

I wish you good luck.

Lifter
PS: I'm former USAF with both FAA/JAA ATP licenses as well as an FAA/JAA 73 type.

[Check Airman]

Well no interest on my behalf...you can keep your utopia there and think by keeping the bar so high where you make it very unaccommodating for prospering pilots to even pass and become a pilot that the notion you have achieved anything from that else that creating a HOSTILE environment for an elitist club like you think you are part of. This is SILLY and does NOT create a more safe airline industry or aviation community than the USA.

We're not talking about stopping somebody who wants to be a private pilot. We're talking about people who will be in command of transport category aircraft on scheduled service. Now I'll readily agree that some percentage of ANY exam is useless and outdated information, but there is some value to the material. There must be some way to weed out those wack-jobs who kinda just flow along and end up in the left seat from those who are serious about the profession. The JAA method is by no means perfect, but it's better than the FAA method. EVERY other professional had to go through rigorous certification exams. Why should pilots be exempt?

[Dreamshiner]

While doing my ATPL exams on my colleagues was a lecturer in Aerodynamics and Aeronautical Engineering at a prominent UK university.

He conveyed that if the JAA exams were to be audited to the same standard the UK universities are by the professional bodies who accredit the specific subject then it would fail that audit hands down.

Also the fact the results for month A come out 3/4 days after the cut off for month B and you then have to wait till month C if you are unfortunate to fail anything.

The US has its faults, however it has a different attitude to aviation, due to its culture, its vastness and the costs associated, in Europe its still seen as a kind of exclusive, modern day golf club due to the price restriction and some peoples attitudes.

In the US however the ATPL exam is 100 questions, you get your answer immediately and you don't have to pay 14x £60, memorise the erroneous questions after the exam and note them as soon as you leave the room if you want to appeal and study a lot of stuff that was useful to know when we navigated by the stars and sextants. We use GPS, FMC's stuffed full of nav info now.......Hello JAA, you listening!

Why are the two systems different? Its all about territory and politics, its why the UK and Eire drives on the left and the rest of Europe and the US drive on the right, to piss us off when we were the major world power. Its why Catholics and Protestants fight over what entrance kids go to school. It's essentially a how big is your d1ck contest, but to unify under one system, God forbid less your nation of origin loses some face by adopting another ones good ideas.

One thing I do know, an aircraft stalls at exactly the same airspeed in US airspace as it does in any other nation and with £1/€1.25 to $2 it is very attractive.

Also I recently changed my address, I went onto the FAA website, did what was asked of me, 4 minutes later I had paid $2 and a week later I had a little credit card with Wilbur and Orville which fits into my wallet nicely, not the War and Peace-esque plastic pain in the @rse that cost me £450 and an extra £105 for my type rating endorsement (incidentally 1 sheet of A5 folded in half).

I hope my bi-partisan stance on this subject is appreciated.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Did my FAA ATP same time I did a JAA LST - 1 exam Clean, ATP, got all my other fAA types added also at the same time.

There must be a shortcut for you, if not I have heard that they are not so challenging for experienced guys.

May I just welcome you over here......... at $10 a gallon and the real rate of income tax at 80% and house prices 4 times the US average together with all the JAA/EASA bull**** and ****e wx...........Stay put mate!

On the other hand getting the damn thing issued is very gratifying.

[pg wing tips]

Jaa....faa

I hold both licences and each has its charms. I am by no stretch of the imagination the best pilot in the world but have seen several different training methods.

From the beginning…

The JAA has a hard slog in terms of exams, with a great deal of irrelevant information with regard to flying. This is a shame as it takes away from gaining a deeper understanding of the subjects which matter and ultimately add to flight safety.

The flight tests can be a little formulaic and test certain aspects of your ability to handle an aircraft, never the less they are thorough.

The FAA licence in terms of written exams is just daft, you can know little about aviation and still pass. However this is backed up in a big way by the oral exam that you have to complete before the flight test, this can be tough. You are on the spot with no multi choice answers and an examiner asking you to apply your knowledge.

The flight tests are practical and can be in depth, for example being asked to plan a full commercial flight in a light twin with pax and all the trimmings is not out of the realm of possibilities.

I understand the argument of those who have been flying for a number of years with an FAA licence and ask why do I have to do the JAA exams, what is the value ? It is probably limited, but a good theoretical knowledge base cant be a bad place to start from. Yes I agree some of the information is just daft and I wish it would be taken out, but as an earlier poster said it just another hurdle, just like the oral exam is in the FAA system.

[B767PL]

747jetdriver,

Completely agree with you and feel your pain on the topic.

Many applicants are not some yahoo, weekend warrior pilots who want to get a JAA ATPL, but experienced airline pilots who have been flying with an airline for even at least 1 or 2 years or more. They should NOT have to start all over to CONVERT a license to a European one. I personally believe it is all about the money, as it costs what? 12-13,000$ to convert now'a'days?... If not make it easier, at least make it cheaper!

Weeding out process? HA! The airlines intensive ground and simulator sessions do the weeding out, as well as all the checkrides and tests passed prior. Besides, just because someone can memorise and cram into their cranium all the useless information the JAA wants you to memorise then dump it all the next day, does not make you a competent airline pilot, or pilot period.


Read Rediculous!!!!!!!

Very impractical and all about the $$$$$

[JJflyer]

Confusion

Me thinks that there is some confusion on what the purpose of licensing is. Just to remind you, JAA exams are not tough to keep foreigners out or protect the market, these are tough to give a good and thorough knowledge to those going for an ATPL.

Today's market in US is far cry from the days when a foreigner could come and sweep hangar floors and live in a camper outside some small FBO. Visas are just simply not enough for anything else than flight instructing or the odd first officer program. To be able to work for pt135 or pt121 operator it is the "Green card" that is required. Those that I know in US flying on the said paper tell me that even then they are subject to all sorts of hassle and additional screening due to the lack of US citizenship.

It is still relatively easy to obtain a work permit for the Schengen countries if there is a company that is willing to hire a foreigner.

The point has been made here about everyone having to go through the process of the said 14 exams. Well yes, this is the case. Hopefully it will change to something where previous experience is taken into account. But today it is what it is. There are for example several hundred EU nationals flying in EU on a non JAA licence on a validation, some of them for years. They have all the knowledge and use JAROPS1 rules on everyday basis pass LPC's OPC's, DGR etc training on regular basis. However should they want to obtain a full JAA ATPL they will still need to go through the 14 exam rumba. I would think that one flying for JAROPS1 AOC holder is more qualified to receive credit, should any be ever given, than one that has no experience in that area

It has been mentioned several times here that these hard exams restrict Europe from hiring experienced and good pilots "From the other side of the pond". I totally disagree. It does not. A person that receives a work permit or is otherwise qualified such as EU passport holders or Right to abode in European countries for other reasons and willing to study and pass the exams are all on the same line.

That said the most lack of SOP compliance and non-standard RT work as well as lack of basic knowledge is in my experience ( As a check and training capt) with those from US. This is not to say that Europeans or other nationalities are never guilty of the said.

As a last note: It seems that EASA implementation will bring some significant changes to the FCL and perhaps rationalise license conversion, at least to some extent.

[Dreamshiner]

Or the politicians and bureaucrats get involved and maintain the status quo or create an extra level of arseyness.

Fingers crossed

[Roadtrip]

Everything, repeat everything, on both side of the Atlantic is money and politics. Practicality, morality, and ethics are quaint anachronisms.

[Trolle]

Hey 747Driver,

Sounds like you are getting screwed if the rules state the following:
ICAO ATPL >>> JAA ATPL (experience >3000 hrs on aeroplanes over 30t MTOW, including >1500 PIC hrs on these)
If you hold a non-JAA ATPL license and have 3000 hours on multi-pilot certified aeroplanes (PIC or co-pilot) with maximum takeoff weight of 30.000 kg or more and have at least 1500 hours as PIC (Captain) on these aircraft you qualify for the exemption in the widest scope. Your experience will be evaluated on individual basis and conversion requirements will be setup for you by the Civil Aviation Authority of the state where you intend to do the flying.

I too am converting my FAA certificates to JAA. Not enough time get around the 14 exams, and they are a bitch and idiotic. Although, the FAA has the same procedure. If someone wants to convert a JAA to FAA certificate they have to go through all the FAA crap too. The only reciprocity is at the private pilot level (here the FAA suffices with limited paperwork while the JAA want approximately 1,000 USD depending on the country). My point is that both legislative organisations require the same thing, "if you want our certificates you have to go through the same level of training as other candidates." I might even be able to stretch it and say that the JAA has at least a structure in place for high experienced pilots, while the FAA does not as far as I can tell.

However, the JAA does appear to want to create an aura of exclusivity and make it damn tough to go through the training. I was told that the JAA wants to have some respect and want to make the training equivalent to two years of college. Remember, many pilots in the EU do not take a univeristy degree at the same or on the side; some do but it is not often a requirement to have a degree as in the US.

Good luck with the exams. Once you get past those the toughest part is over.

[JJflyer]

Trolle.

Y are slightly mistaken. Only country in Europe that allows for that rule is UK and with that you will only get a RESTRICTED JAA ATPL. Restricted in the sense that you are only allowed to fly UK registered aircraft.

[relax.jet]

And what about this guys?

You pass all 14 exams. The database is the same like in other JAA countries. Exams are exactly the same. You never repeat one, you are always over 90%, and the question bank is not public in this country. And than you have your licence issued according JAA, BUT your CAA didn’t pass the JAA audit! Consequently you have all exams according to JAA but because CAA didn’t pass audit your licence are not accepted in other JAA countries.

…..all exams done, flying over Europe, the same airspace, same airports, same airplanes BUT the licence is just state CAA licence, according JAA.

it all!

[GlueBall]

Helloooo . . .

Interesting topic. But, curiously, after all these years of JAA exam hysteria, no business oriented pilot has yet produced a CD [for sale] of the 14 exams' questions and answers?

[youngskywalker]

Do a search on ebay and you will find dozens of cd's with the question banks! I'm not sure they could be easily remembered though without doing the study also!