Astraeus pilots fly for nothing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm really glad to see some intelligent debate on this for once (usually im flamed for being "anti-wanabee" 
).
BALPA should do something because it does have a impact on new hire T+C's but in my experience they seem fairly disinterested or ineffective with even small airlines so I doubt we will see any action from them.
Paying for a TR is different in many respects because it is all training and the TRTO (whether its a dedicated facility or part of an airline) is offering a service. As long as there are freelance pilots, we will need TRTOs.
However, the question should be asked whether offering a 757/747 rating to a 150hr pilot is ethical? What exactly are the chances of said pilot finding employment? From my experience, not so good. Hence these hour building programmes springing up (lets be honest, its really not line training).
I think they are getting around employment laws by calling it line training when its blatantly not.
).BALPA should do something because it does have a impact on new hire T+C's but in my experience they seem fairly disinterested or ineffective with even small airlines so I doubt we will see any action from them.
Paying for a TR is different in many respects because it is all training and the TRTO (whether its a dedicated facility or part of an airline) is offering a service. As long as there are freelance pilots, we will need TRTOs.
However, the question should be asked whether offering a 757/747 rating to a 150hr pilot is ethical? What exactly are the chances of said pilot finding employment? From my experience, not so good. Hence these hour building programmes springing up (lets be honest, its really not line training).
I think they are getting around employment laws by calling it line training when its blatantly not.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Astraeus has been doing this for at least the past three years. I fly with an ex-Astraeus skipper who stated it felt a bit odd with guy sitting next to him as the f/o who was both a colleague and a customer.
I think it is wrong. However, what do people think about the CTC scheme which places F/Os at the hands of EasyJet and others who are not paid for the first 6 months. This has the same effect on T&Cs but for some reason, people seem to think this is an OK state of affairs.
I think it is wrong. However, what do people think about the CTC scheme which places F/Os at the hands of EasyJet and others who are not paid for the first 6 months. This has the same effect on T&Cs but for some reason, people seem to think this is an OK state of affairs.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think the CTC scheme is quite as bad as some of these other schemes for several reasons:
1) CTC cadets don't pay to sit in the RHS to gain experience.
2) An allowance of £1000 as well as duty pay and sector pay are paid to the trainee.
3) They are almost certain to be offered a permanent contract at the end of the 6 months (especially Easyjet), hence companies aren't (in the main) using this as a way to get cheap employees for 6 months before letting them go.
4) The type rating is paid for by the airline, so not only is the trainee not paying for line training, but they get a free type rating.
However, maybe I'm biased as I'm an ex-ctc cadet
1) CTC cadets don't pay to sit in the RHS to gain experience.
2) An allowance of £1000 as well as duty pay and sector pay are paid to the trainee.
3) They are almost certain to be offered a permanent contract at the end of the 6 months (especially Easyjet), hence companies aren't (in the main) using this as a way to get cheap employees for 6 months before letting them go.
4) The type rating is paid for by the airline, so not only is the trainee not paying for line training, but they get a free type rating.
However, maybe I'm biased as I'm an ex-ctc cadet
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a very sad situation but a few years ago pilots were offering for pay for their type ratings, nowadays I receive numerous applications whereas they seem to have accepted that a type rating (only) will not secure them a job and they are asking to buy hours on type.
Whist Astraeus might have been one of the forerunners in selling hours just have a look at the prices that eaglejet.net are charging, it's scandalous.
Who knows where it will end, first pilots paid for 100 hours, now 300 or 500 hours, what next?
Whist Astraeus might have been one of the forerunners in selling hours just have a look at the prices that eaglejet.net are charging, it's scandalous.
Who knows where it will end, first pilots paid for 100 hours, now 300 or 500 hours, what next?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paying for Line Training
In an answer to someones question...'Are Astraeus still doing this.'
Yes they are, I know of a few people who have went down this route after completing their 757-200 TR with Bond. From what I believe, if Astraeus were recruiting on this fleet, a cadet straight out of Bond Aviation who may have been approached by the airline via the TR provider would be informed that if they wished to be considered for the position they would have to purchase the line training package prior to any offer
This is the story that circulated round my FTO when a number of guys straight out of their IR training signed up to the Bond/Astraeus program.
As said before, Eaglejet have been doing this for years....and from what I believe don't do a great job of it either. Recent stories from the wanabee forum involved people embarking on training with Eaglejet and Royal Air Maroc. Little good was said about the way it had been arranged. However I have little sympathy for anyone who signs up for these sort of deals and gets treated badly. More fool them!
There is also a company based in the UK called Sigmar which offers the TR/Line Training package on the A320. Their partner airline is no other than My Travel! Similar scenario to Astraeus, but with 350 hours.
I'm sure there are others, however they may not be as common
Yes they are, I know of a few people who have went down this route after completing their 757-200 TR with Bond. From what I believe, if Astraeus were recruiting on this fleet, a cadet straight out of Bond Aviation who may have been approached by the airline via the TR provider would be informed that if they wished to be considered for the position they would have to purchase the line training package prior to any offer
This is the story that circulated round my FTO when a number of guys straight out of their IR training signed up to the Bond/Astraeus program.As said before, Eaglejet have been doing this for years....and from what I believe don't do a great job of it either. Recent stories from the wanabee forum involved people embarking on training with Eaglejet and Royal Air Maroc. Little good was said about the way it had been arranged. However I have little sympathy for anyone who signs up for these sort of deals and gets treated badly. More fool them!
There is also a company based in the UK called Sigmar which offers the TR/Line Training package on the A320. Their partner airline is no other than My Travel! Similar scenario to Astraeus, but with 350 hours.
I'm sure there are others, however they may not be as common
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Heffer,I have no motif as you suggest.I was just having a drink the other night down route and the conversation came up in a roundabout way talking about rock groups.Iron maiden came up which somehow led to Astreus!!.Judging the reaction so far i think my question has struck a nerve amongst pilots.I'm sure that the travelling public would also raise an eyebrow or two.
Cheers,kingsurf.
Cheers,kingsurf.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Office
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Industrial, professional and moral issues aside, how about the safety issues?
Most of those FOs who are paying to fly must surely need money to live, and unless they have managed to get a very nice source of funds from their relatives or banks, they would need to take on a second job to live on? What would that do for fatigue, concentration, etc?
Most of those FOs who are paying to fly must surely need money to live, and unless they have managed to get a very nice source of funds from their relatives or banks, they would need to take on a second job to live on? What would that do for fatigue, concentration, etc?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whatever you think of this kind of scheme, it has been a tremendous way for low experience pilots to get straight onto a jet,
If you have the money and ability then why not ?As we all know its a cut throat world out there and you need to get ahead of the opposition somehow...
If you have the money and ability then why not ?As we all know its a cut throat world out there and you need to get ahead of the opposition somehow...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The passengers are getting 2 qualified crew as both have type ratings. the argument abour low houred pilots is rubbish because this is no different to what virtually every airline does in the uk. BA, Thomsonfly,Ryaniar, Easy, Jet2, First Choice, thomas cook etc etc, all do line training on their 737/757/320 fleets for low houred pilots. Are they also shortchanging their passengers then?So the ONLY difference is that the person in the seat is paying instead of getting paid.
This is a useful facility, I disagree that people should have to pay for all line training, but what do you do if you were taken on by an airline , did your TR but before you finished your line training the airlines ceased operation? Its not ideal having to pay for line training but in certain cases it can be beneficial to getting work again.
This is a useful facility, I disagree that people should have to pay for all line training, but what do you do if you were taken on by an airline , did your TR but before you finished your line training the airlines ceased operation? Its not ideal having to pay for line training but in certain cases it can be beneficial to getting work again.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: @ some hotel far away from everything
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
St.Paul, 2 qualified crew? Meaning 4 pilots? I think you mean 2 type rated pilots, of which one has been qualified as commander due to his or her level of experience. For the F/O.... if the only difference is that he or she is getting paid or giving the airline money, well that`s 2 different worlds. 
Yes, airlines put their new-hires on line training, of course, how else will they get the experience? But this all happens AFTER they have gone through the airline`s selection process, passed the airline`s TR and are out on line with the airline`s training Captains. What could the difference be....?
Fade to grey, there are always at least 2 sides to every story. Have the money and ability is one way of putting things. Another way could be not being able to get hired by the smaller companies first. Or even as an FI. Or even worse - getting fired by either small companies or flight schools (as FI) because you`re just not competent enough to hack it. Next step smells like a SF TR to me. And that`s what makes me very sceptical to all operators who have this policy.
Yes, airlines put their new-hires on line training, of course, how else will they get the experience? But this all happens AFTER they have gone through the airline`s selection process, passed the airline`s TR and are out on line with the airline`s training Captains. What could the difference be....?
Fade to grey, there are always at least 2 sides to every story. Have the money and ability is one way of putting things. Another way could be not being able to get hired by the smaller companies first. Or even as an FI. Or even worse - getting fired by either small companies or flight schools (as FI) because you`re just not competent enough to hack it. Next step smells like a SF TR to me. And that`s what makes me very sceptical to all operators who have this policy.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you have the money and ability then why not ?
BA, Thomsonfly,Ryaniar, Easy, Jet2, First Choice, thomas cook etc etc, all do line training on their 737/757/320 fleets for low houred pilots
So the ONLY difference is that the person in the seat is paying instead of getting paid.
pro·fes·sion·al
1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career
3. Performed by persons receiving pay
4. Having or showing great skill; expert
Its the difference between a professional pilot and an amature.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trouble is I've bumped into loads of guys who had trouble getting all their hours at AEU as the next guy came up behind them expecting to get his 100 hours.
Saying that, chaps have been bowling up at my airline having done their time at AEU on the 757 so in that respect it has got them to a point where they actually get a chance of a job.
Course I don't really agree with paid hour building but you don't spend all that money training to just mingle with the other supermarket manager lookalikes at the BALPA conference.
I also don't like the attitude of these hour building outfits as you're expected to be humble, grateful and a pain if you complain or expect your actual hours.
Saying that, chaps have been bowling up at my airline having done their time at AEU on the 757 so in that respect it has got them to a point where they actually get a chance of a job.
Course I don't really agree with paid hour building but you don't spend all that money training to just mingle with the other supermarket manager lookalikes at the BALPA conference.
I also don't like the attitude of these hour building outfits as you're expected to be humble, grateful and a pain if you complain or expect your actual hours.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Astraeus/Bond, Sigmar, Eaglejet...whoever! People are still going through these schemes and jumping the line to the RHS. I should know; having been through the process with a lo-co for nearly 8 months, only to be turned round to and told I wasn't getting the job because I didn't have the TR and the time on type. I was later to learn that people who had paid for their TR/line training had become sucessful.
So there you go, it's obviously working for some people. Many would say 'fair play - if you have the money, do it.' These guys must have had a bit of ability to get through everything, even if they paid for it! I don't agree with it, but who cares what I think! Certainly not the person who paid for his 100, 200 or 350 hours in the RHS of his Boeing or Airbus and got a job out of it as a result!
So there you go, it's obviously working for some people. Many would say 'fair play - if you have the money, do it.' These guys must have had a bit of ability to get through everything, even if they paid for it! I don't agree with it, but who cares what I think! Certainly not the person who paid for his 100, 200 or 350 hours in the RHS of his Boeing or Airbus and got a job out of it as a result!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CK, that wasn't the company you and I were talking about over christmas was it?
If it was.....I'm furious for you
What is wrong with us pilots that we allow this sort of thing to become acceptable? It's no good blaming the inexperienced people for this. All the SFO's Skippers and management pilots who sit back whislt their companies "employ" people on this basis and do nothing should hang their heads in shame.
If it was.....I'm furious for you
What is wrong with us pilots that we allow this sort of thing to become acceptable? It's no good blaming the inexperienced people for this. All the SFO's Skippers and management pilots who sit back whislt their companies "employ" people on this basis and do nothing should hang their heads in shame.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it doesn't pay to do it then don't do it. However, I think the maths must work out in favour of the pilot because there is a queue of wannabes who want to do it.
It seems implausible to me that intelligent pilots cannot work out the cost-benefit case. Pilots choose an expensive - but highly rewarding (in terms of job satisfaction and remuneration) - career and it costs a lot to get to a point where the money rolls in. Some choose to mitigate the expense by getting the taxpayer to fund their training but for many the incovenience of 18 years military service means they have to fund their first steps up the airstairs.
Pilots are not unique in this regard. Most HGV drivers fund their own training as do a substantial proportion of bus/coach drivers, builders, plumbers, joiners, divers etc - whilst the cost of training is lower so are the ultimate rewards. How many careers are there where the wannabe doesn't do some of the funding.
No investment, no reward......that's life!
It seems implausible to me that intelligent pilots cannot work out the cost-benefit case. Pilots choose an expensive - but highly rewarding (in terms of job satisfaction and remuneration) - career and it costs a lot to get to a point where the money rolls in. Some choose to mitigate the expense by getting the taxpayer to fund their training but for many the incovenience of 18 years military service means they have to fund their first steps up the airstairs.
Pilots are not unique in this regard. Most HGV drivers fund their own training as do a substantial proportion of bus/coach drivers, builders, plumbers, joiners, divers etc - whilst the cost of training is lower so are the ultimate rewards. How many careers are there where the wannabe doesn't do some of the funding.
No investment, no reward......that's life!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please let me know where I can find someone that will pay me to :
Deliver goods to my house
Take my kids school on the next school visit
Fix the heating of my house
Do a loft conversion for me
Build me a wooden shed
Dive down to clean the hull of my boat
I am always willing to give a helping hand to young profesionals starting out. I am also not limited to the profesions above and I am specially willing to help tax accountans, lawyers, hoteliers, cooks, taxi drivers, mechanics, cleaners, gardeners and many others.
Deliver goods to my house
Take my kids school on the next school visit
Fix the heating of my house
Do a loft conversion for me
Build me a wooden shed
Dive down to clean the hull of my boat
I am always willing to give a helping hand to young profesionals starting out. I am also not limited to the profesions above and I am specially willing to help tax accountans, lawyers, hoteliers, cooks, taxi drivers, mechanics, cleaners, gardeners and many others.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Consider though the option of getting a type rating without any line flying.
At least by actually flying the aircraft the standard of training has to be up to scratch for Astraeus to put the F/O's out on the line. There could be a view that some scrape through sim training and get signed up just because the TRE know's they are not going to the host airline ?
At least by actually flying the aircraft the standard of training has to be up to scratch for Astraeus to put the F/O's out on the line. There could be a view that some scrape through sim training and get signed up just because the TRE know's they are not going to the host airline ?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say again s l o w l y
Whilst I and many other agree with your sentiments, trying to get your company to change its recruitment procedures is like hitting your head against a brick wall - have you ever tried? I am not a Ashtraysrus pilot but my company has a scheme where new F/Os are bonded for X years and the money is docked out of their gross salary over the bond period. I have pointed out to the powers that be that this does not serve as a bond since crews pay in the long term if they stay or go! Have things changed - no and the people behind this are the Beancounters and not Flight Ops management. That probably goes across the board!
These are tactics that will be hard to shift for many companies! It is not as simple as us older farts making noises to management.
Whilst I and many other agree with your sentiments, trying to get your company to change its recruitment procedures is like hitting your head against a brick wall - have you ever tried? I am not a Ashtraysrus pilot but my company has a scheme where new F/Os are bonded for X years and the money is docked out of their gross salary over the bond period. I have pointed out to the powers that be that this does not serve as a bond since crews pay in the long term if they stay or go! Have things changed - no and the people behind this are the Beancounters and not Flight Ops management. That probably goes across the board!
These are tactics that will be hard to shift for many companies! It is not as simple as us older farts making noises to management.