Pic Time With The Majors
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Pic Time With The Majors
There are alot of big companies, mostly state airlines where FOs have to wait in around 10 years for and upgrade to the LHS, these pilots are flying widebody jets. My question is do these guys have a good chance of finding jobs else where, when your CV looks like this 4000 TT 3000 JET 100PIC..
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Under U.S. law
Under U.S. law, as long as the F/O is typed in the aircraft, he can LOG the time he is actually at the controls, flying the aircraft, as PIC. I interpret this to mean that, if it's the co-pilot's leg to fly, he/she can log that time as PIC, as long as he/she is typed in the aircraft (legally able to act as pilot-in-command).
With most other countries, both pilots must be typed in the aircraft. In the U.S. this is not true.
There are airlines in the U.S. where guys are still flying as first officer...after 20 years with the company. They may have total flight time well over 15,000 hours...in some cases, pushing 20,000 hours...total flight time, and they are still first officers.
PantLoad
With most other countries, both pilots must be typed in the aircraft. In the U.S. this is not true.
There are airlines in the U.S. where guys are still flying as first officer...after 20 years with the company. They may have total flight time well over 15,000 hours...in some cases, pushing 20,000 hours...total flight time, and they are still first officers.
PantLoad
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The copilot, irrespective of his/her P1 license or Type Rating on the airplane, or even if he/she is a captain/commander performing the duties of a copilot, . . . neither carries the responsibilities of PIC, nor the designation of PIC, [Commander].
In airline operations the airline designates the PIC for every flight when two "captains" are aboard. Therefore, being the "pilot at controls" on a particular sector does not in itself qualify as "PIC" time.
A type rated copilot cannot claim PIC time. How would this work? A copilot claims to have flown 5000hrs PIC time with a major carrier, but was never a captain nor paid as captain....? Think about it.
In airline operations the airline designates the PIC for every flight when two "captains" are aboard. Therefore, being the "pilot at controls" on a particular sector does not in itself qualify as "PIC" time.
A type rated copilot cannot claim PIC time. How would this work? A copilot claims to have flown 5000hrs PIC time with a major carrier, but was never a captain nor paid as captain....? Think about it.
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OK, so lets say that you're a type rated B747 First Officer with NW and you've operated to Shanghai Pudong Airport a hundred times and accumulated 2000 hours of which you had "operated the controls" 1000 hours. And now you've suddenly been furloughed and you're looking for another job overseas: . . . And you're going to put in your application that you've got 1000 hours PIC in a B747....? I mean, do you really think that any major airline anywhere in the world will credit your experience as having had 1000 PIC hours in a B747....? Do you actually believe that you would qualify as having earned PIC experience while flying as copilot just because you have a Type Rating on the airplane? I can tell you right now that you would have a problem getting hired if you were to market yourself as having had B747 PIC experience. 
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You're correct...But,
GlueBall,
Everything you say makes sense...only one problem: The U.S. Federal Air Regulations don't give a #$$% about any of this. To put it another way, the U.S. Federal Air Regulations (with regard to logging flight time) do not address this issue.
To be succinct, if a pilot is acting as the manipulator of the controls, and he/she is appropriately rated in that aircraft, then he/she may log such time as pilot in command.
The U.S. Federal Air Regulations (again, with regard to logging flight time) do not address airline seniority, what to do when two captains are flying together, who is the more experienced pilot, which pilot the airline designates (and pays) as captain.....None of these issues is addressed in the regulations. Maybe they should be, but they're not.
This issue has been cussed, discussed at length in the U.S. Obviously, the rules are different in other parts of the world, and obvioulsy the heated discussions (which have been settled years ago) have not been heard outside the borders of the U.S.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Everything you say makes sense...only one problem: The U.S. Federal Air Regulations don't give a #$$% about any of this. To put it another way, the U.S. Federal Air Regulations (with regard to logging flight time) do not address this issue.
To be succinct, if a pilot is acting as the manipulator of the controls, and he/she is appropriately rated in that aircraft, then he/she may log such time as pilot in command.
The U.S. Federal Air Regulations (again, with regard to logging flight time) do not address airline seniority, what to do when two captains are flying together, who is the more experienced pilot, which pilot the airline designates (and pays) as captain.....None of these issues is addressed in the regulations. Maybe they should be, but they're not.
This issue has been cussed, discussed at length in the U.S. Obviously, the rules are different in other parts of the world, and obvioulsy the heated discussions (which have been settled years ago) have not been heard outside the borders of the U.S.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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Chaps,
PantLoad is correct in his description of how the FAA system works. You might think it is a silly system (and it would definitely appear to be), but don't shoot the messenger.
In the US, the question at interview to establish your level of experience would be 'How much time do you have where you signed for the aircraft?' as opposed to 'How much PIC time do you have?'. As PantLoad explained PIC time on its own means little, where it is only the designated commander of the aircraft who can sign for the thing.
Can we go back to the original question now?
PantLoad is correct in his description of how the FAA system works. You might think it is a silly system (and it would definitely appear to be), but don't shoot the messenger.
In the US, the question at interview to establish your level of experience would be 'How much time do you have where you signed for the aircraft?' as opposed to 'How much PIC time do you have?'. As PantLoad explained PIC time on its own means little, where it is only the designated commander of the aircraft who can sign for the thing.
Can we go back to the original question now?
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While one may choose to interpret the US FARs this way (God only knows why), the simple realities are:
1. In every interview with an American carrier (including the one I work for) I've been a part of, or heard about, the question is "How much turbine PIC time you got, bub?".
2. NOT A SINGLE SOUL in his right mind would advance to the interviewer the prospect of that PIC time having been logged while serving as second-in-command in a scheduled airline operation.
3. If one were to attempt this, he/she would be shown the door.
The only time this interpretation of the regs legitimately comes into play is in 2-pilot corporate or FAR 135 charter / cargo operations where a first officer may log PIC time if he manipulates the controls (assuming he is appropriately rated in the aircraft) during a ferry or reposition leg operated under Part 91 only. Some people try to "interpret" the rule a little more than that, but believe me any airline interviewer worth his salt will grill the hell out of them when he finds this in their logbook.
Therefore, the entire argument is irrelevant to FAR 121 / US scheduled airline operations. Don't log your 747 FO time as PIC. Trust me.
1. In every interview with an American carrier (including the one I work for) I've been a part of, or heard about, the question is "How much turbine PIC time you got, bub?".
2. NOT A SINGLE SOUL in his right mind would advance to the interviewer the prospect of that PIC time having been logged while serving as second-in-command in a scheduled airline operation.
3. If one were to attempt this, he/she would be shown the door.
The only time this interpretation of the regs legitimately comes into play is in 2-pilot corporate or FAR 135 charter / cargo operations where a first officer may log PIC time if he manipulates the controls (assuming he is appropriately rated in the aircraft) during a ferry or reposition leg operated under Part 91 only. Some people try to "interpret" the rule a little more than that, but believe me any airline interviewer worth his salt will grill the hell out of them when he finds this in their logbook.
Therefore, the entire argument is irrelevant to FAR 121 / US scheduled airline operations. Don't log your 747 FO time as PIC. Trust me.
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Sorry...
The section of the Federal Aviation Regulations that addresses the logging of flight time is Part 61....not 91, or 135, or 121.
Sorry.....
Now, would an airline, during an interview, accept this from an applicant? Probably not, in fact, I'd bet not.
However, under the law, is it legal?...you bet it is!!!!
PantLoad
p.s. a call to the legal department of AOPA can clear up any doubt.
Sorry.....
Now, would an airline, during an interview, accept this from an applicant? Probably not, in fact, I'd bet not.
However, under the law, is it legal?...you bet it is!!!!
PantLoad
p.s. a call to the legal department of AOPA can clear up any doubt.
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By the way....
Now, I'm REALLY going to stir the pot....
Under some circumstances, under U.S. law, it is legal for more than one pilot to log PIC time (at the same time)....
HaHaHaHa
(I'm enjoying this....)
PantLoad
Under some circumstances, under U.S. law, it is legal for more than one pilot to log PIC time (at the same time)....
HaHaHaHa
(I'm enjoying this....)
PantLoad
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PIC time logging - FAA Rules
Here are the FAA rules pertaining to logging (and being) a PIC...
Some for you confuse PF and PIC, or PNF and SIC... not the same thing.
Take your eyeglasses... many of you dont have 20/20 vision -
Or maybe do not understand ICAO level 4 English.
xxx
FAR 1.1 (easy to remember the numbers, is it...?) - Definitions...
Then we go down the alphabetical order to letter P.... for Pilot in Command.
xxx
Pilot-in-Command - means the person who: -
(1) Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight.
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight, and -
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class and type rating, for the conduct of the flight.
xxx
If you fly under FAR 91 (executive flights) - you could log PIC if -
(1) You are qualified on that type of aircraft.
(2) You are current as PIC (see rules that apply with FAR 61.58) that is aircraft current by type, with a PIC proficiency check in the last 12 monrhs.
xxx
If you fly under FAR 121 (applies also to FAR 135) - you could log PIC if -
(1) You are qualified as PIC on type aircraft (type rating) -
(2) You have performed 3 landings in the last 90 days on the aircraft type -
(3) You have a current 6 month PIC instrument check -
(4) You have a current 12 month PIC line check -
(5) You are named as PIC of the flight on the dispatch release and flight plan.
xxx
In the case you are a "Cruise Captain" with a crew of 3 pilots, in which you are the SIC "Second Captain" - you can log as PIC all the time you fly while acting as PIC/PF... With my airline, our cruise captains on the 747-400 and the A-340 are logging 1/2 of the time as PIC, and 1/2 of the time as SIC, as an approved practice.
xxx
Happy contrails
Some for you confuse PF and PIC, or PNF and SIC... not the same thing.
Take your eyeglasses... many of you dont have 20/20 vision -
Or maybe do not understand ICAO level 4 English.
xxx
FAR 1.1 (easy to remember the numbers, is it...?) - Definitions...
Then we go down the alphabetical order to letter P.... for Pilot in Command.
xxx
Pilot-in-Command - means the person who: -
(1) Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight.
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight, and -
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class and type rating, for the conduct of the flight.
xxx
If you fly under FAR 91 (executive flights) - you could log PIC if -
(1) You are qualified on that type of aircraft.
(2) You are current as PIC (see rules that apply with FAR 61.58) that is aircraft current by type, with a PIC proficiency check in the last 12 monrhs.
xxx
If you fly under FAR 121 (applies also to FAR 135) - you could log PIC if -
(1) You are qualified as PIC on type aircraft (type rating) -
(2) You have performed 3 landings in the last 90 days on the aircraft type -
(3) You have a current 6 month PIC instrument check -
(4) You have a current 12 month PIC line check -
(5) You are named as PIC of the flight on the dispatch release and flight plan.
xxx
In the case you are a "Cruise Captain" with a crew of 3 pilots, in which you are the SIC "Second Captain" - you can log as PIC all the time you fly while acting as PIC/PF... With my airline, our cruise captains on the 747-400 and the A-340 are logging 1/2 of the time as PIC, and 1/2 of the time as SIC, as an approved practice.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Be careful when transferring your "logged" PIC hours to any airline application form, because major airlines do not use the "sole manipulator of controls" criteria (from your FAA Part 61 book) to define PIC time. 
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Ahh, the good old FAA!
We don't have this problem in Europe as under JAA if you are an F/O who is acting as PF you simply log it as PICUS (pilot in command under supervision)
Not that i'm saying JAA is better.......
We don't have this problem in Europe as under JAA if you are an F/O who is acting as PF you simply log it as PICUS (pilot in command under supervision)
Not that i'm saying JAA is better.......
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We don't have this problem in Europe as under JAA if you are an F/O who is acting as PF you simply log it as PICUS (pilot in command under supervision)
In other words there is no (US) time when flying as PF in a ordinary flight and however there can be ONLY ONE pilot in command for the flight.
Just curious on where the truth hides...
PZ
Not that i'm saying JAA is better.......
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I'm sure there have to be ONLY ONE commander in one plane (regardless of the number of captains in cockpit; regardless if is FAR or JAR ops). Otherwise there might be a lot of problems... 
And to log hours as PIC(US) you have to fly with Training capt, Instructor or Examiner. You shouldn't log all flight as PICUS when you are on controls.
And to log hours as PIC(US) you have to fly with Training capt, Instructor or Examiner. You shouldn't log all flight as PICUS when you are on controls.
Last edited by relax.jet; 29th Feb 2008 at 15:18.
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And to log hours as PIC(US) you have to fly with Training capt, Instructor or Examiner. You shouldn't log any flight as PICUS when you are on controls
Papazulu and relax.jet
The CAA FE quoted is correct as far as aircraft certificated for single pilot operations are concerned. As for UK airline operations it is normal for the F/O to log P1 (U/S) whilst "acting as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot-in-command" (those words from the instructions for use in cap 407, the CAA pilots log book, by the way). Most take this as being on their handling sectors, but theoretically that isn't required, however they should carry out all the duties of the commander including all fuel/wx decisions and filling in tech log, checking load sheets etc.
There is no requirement for the PIC to be any sort of training captain. At other airlines I flew for we used to countersign F/Os log books to validate the entry but no one has asked me to do so for a long time. The commander still logs the flight as P1 as he/she remains legally in charge of the aircraft.
The CAA FE quoted is correct as far as aircraft certificated for single pilot operations are concerned. As for UK airline operations it is normal for the F/O to log P1 (U/S) whilst "acting as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot-in-command" (those words from the instructions for use in cap 407, the CAA pilots log book, by the way). Most take this as being on their handling sectors, but theoretically that isn't required, however they should carry out all the duties of the commander including all fuel/wx decisions and filling in tech log, checking load sheets etc.
There is no requirement for the PIC to be any sort of training captain. At other airlines I flew for we used to countersign F/Os log books to validate the entry but no one has asked me to do so for a long time. The commander still logs the flight as P1 as he/she remains legally in charge of the aircraft.