Ryanair Unionization
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Well, if I were you gentlemen (and ladies), I'd watch this space closely. Things are afoot in one Northern base, and they sound promising 
And no, it's not promising for Ryanair - or BALPA, for the matter. But very promising for the pilots based there, if they show up and join the debate
Ryanair have for years said that "We prefer to negotiate directly with our pilots". Well, guess you'll get just what you've stated a preference for
The talk, the walk, and all that...
And no, it's not promising for Ryanair - or BALPA, for the matter. But very promising for the pilots based there, if they show up and join the debate
Ryanair have for years said that "We prefer to negotiate directly with our pilots". Well, guess you'll get just what you've stated a preference for
The talk, the walk, and all that...
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Reality not Idealism needed
Been at Fr for quite a few years now and am a Euro based skipper. The actual job aint that bad and is better than my previous. the 5/4 is great. But's that's as far as it goes.
There has, will again and always be an insiduous deteriation in terms by management and ONLY unionisation can prevent it.
The hardest part, is the reality that many like me have kids and mortgages and whilst fully paid up union members, we will be fired if found to be trying to organise any form of resistance to the absolute rule of MOL. Do the majority want change ...yes
You would have to work in ryanair though to understand the way it works, it is more akin to a tinpot dicatorship. The secret police (fellow travellers) are strategically placed and will report back. You have to suss out who you are speaking to. Plenty of I'm allrights, so that's all that matters.
The other significant difficulties, company induced fragmentation aside, are you are dealing with a management team who will say or do anthing and explore any possible legal action (to stall) any assault on their iron grip.
You are trying to win in game of cards and beat the dealer who holds all the money, will stick cards up the sleeve, use cameras and others to sneak a look at your cards and will refuse to pay even if you do win. They don't play by any rules they make them up and change them as they go along.
And like most tinpot dictatorships any dissent will be tried by kangaroo court and met with execution of duties.
As for the comment on getting the public onside, if you havn't noticed already, any negative press Ryanair receive is always met with the challenge by MOL to allow him a live debate. where he will as he has before will paint pilots as overpaid premadonnas who only work 18 hours per week and all have yachts. (he's done it before).
The truth is that most captains, myself included, only get half of our salary as basic the rest is sector payments. the only ever increase given is on basic only so if it is 3% that is only 1.5% on total. Since I joined in 2001. I had all benefits, Loss of Lic, medicals, pensions, car parking, crew drinks, HOTAC, summarily removed. Sector times fiddled and then when the give you inflation payrise onhalf your salary and give back pension, whilst cutting F/O's pay they window dress it as a rise that the Pilots "happy to negotiate directly" have negotiated.
Our pay against rising inflation has been going backwards for years. Any suggestion to the contrary is not true, though unless that untruth is legally challenged the painted perception will sit there.
Ryanair pilots are not happy that the companies direct dealing is dictation that can be changed at will, regardless of contract and challenges meet with hounding.
If you are not a member of a union, why not, they may not be perfect but they are a million times better than being continually shafted.
P.S I predict here that within 18 months the allowance and/or pension will be unilaterally removed unless you do the only thing you do.
JOIN A UNION AND PROTECT YOUR CAREER AND FAMILIES FUTURE
There has, will again and always be an insiduous deteriation in terms by management and ONLY unionisation can prevent it.
The hardest part, is the reality that many like me have kids and mortgages and whilst fully paid up union members, we will be fired if found to be trying to organise any form of resistance to the absolute rule of MOL. Do the majority want change ...yes
You would have to work in ryanair though to understand the way it works, it is more akin to a tinpot dicatorship. The secret police (fellow travellers) are strategically placed and will report back. You have to suss out who you are speaking to. Plenty of I'm allrights, so that's all that matters.
The other significant difficulties, company induced fragmentation aside, are you are dealing with a management team who will say or do anthing and explore any possible legal action (to stall) any assault on their iron grip.
You are trying to win in game of cards and beat the dealer who holds all the money, will stick cards up the sleeve, use cameras and others to sneak a look at your cards and will refuse to pay even if you do win. They don't play by any rules they make them up and change them as they go along.
And like most tinpot dictatorships any dissent will be tried by kangaroo court and met with execution of duties.
As for the comment on getting the public onside, if you havn't noticed already, any negative press Ryanair receive is always met with the challenge by MOL to allow him a live debate. where he will as he has before will paint pilots as overpaid premadonnas who only work 18 hours per week and all have yachts. (he's done it before).
The truth is that most captains, myself included, only get half of our salary as basic the rest is sector payments. the only ever increase given is on basic only so if it is 3% that is only 1.5% on total. Since I joined in 2001. I had all benefits, Loss of Lic, medicals, pensions, car parking, crew drinks, HOTAC, summarily removed. Sector times fiddled and then when the give you inflation payrise onhalf your salary and give back pension, whilst cutting F/O's pay they window dress it as a rise that the Pilots "happy to negotiate directly" have negotiated.
Our pay against rising inflation has been going backwards for years. Any suggestion to the contrary is not true, though unless that untruth is legally challenged the painted perception will sit there.
Ryanair pilots are not happy that the companies direct dealing is dictation that can be changed at will, regardless of contract and challenges meet with hounding.
If you are not a member of a union, why not, they may not be perfect but they are a million times better than being continually shafted.
P.S I predict here that within 18 months the allowance and/or pension will be unilaterally removed unless you do the only thing you do.
JOIN A UNION AND PROTECT YOUR CAREER AND FAMILIES FUTURE
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The owls are not what they seem to be...
Bonglebear,
Well, the pay negotiations are approaching. But with a twist...
Watch this space over the next month - and by all means spread the word that surprises are afoot. For now, it will suffice to say that one of the parties in the negotiations
is in for a novel approach to things.
Well, the pay negotiations are approaching. But with a twist...
Watch this space over the next month - and by all means spread the word that surprises are afoot. For now, it will suffice to say that one of the parties in the negotiations
is in for a novel approach to things.
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How wrong you are....
BALLSOUT,
To quote you "there are plenty of pilots out there who will give a lot to be part of it".
There are luckily so many more that won´t.
I for one will never join the circus that is Ryanair.
I´m glad I don´t have someone like M. O`leary breathing down my neck every single day of my working career. What will he come up with next week, the week after that and the week after that, soon you could be left with nothing, or close to it, in terms of remuneration.
Best regards,
To quote you "there are plenty of pilots out there who will give a lot to be part of it".
There are luckily so many more that won´t.
I for one will never join the circus that is Ryanair.
I´m glad I don´t have someone like M. O`leary breathing down my neck every single day of my working career. What will he come up with next week, the week after that and the week after that, soon you could be left with nothing, or close to it, in terms of remuneration.
Best regards,
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Originally Posted by Flintstone
My initial reaction to the banner was initially one of disgust (at Ryanair) then disappointment (at Danny et al). Then I gave it some thought.
1. There is a certain irony in O'Leary paying toward a site that is used, at least in part, to organise his crew into a union. That appeals to me, perhaps I'm warped.
2. Perhaps there's more to this than meets the eye? Maybe the banner was allowed in the hope that it would galvanise Ryanair crew into doing something about it? If this is the case I'd say the short term irritation is far outweighed by the long term benefits.
3. I've been around PPRuNe for a while now and though I don't know Danny personally I very much doubt he and his helper monkeys allowed the ad to run purely for the few measly quid they would have been paid for it. I'm sure 'someone' would have weighed up the potential damage to the site from any backlash. If money were the main concern I'd say letting the ad run would be a huge risk.
On reflection I'm inclined to think there's more to it than simply accepting revenue from an advertiser although the ultra-cynical part of me is whispering "But what if they let the ad run knowing it would generate debate and more hits on the site?". Damn my overactive imagination
1. There is a certain irony in O'Leary paying toward a site that is used, at least in part, to organise his crew into a union. That appeals to me, perhaps I'm warped.
2. Perhaps there's more to this than meets the eye? Maybe the banner was allowed in the hope that it would galvanise Ryanair crew into doing something about it? If this is the case I'd say the short term irritation is far outweighed by the long term benefits.
3. I've been around PPRuNe for a while now and though I don't know Danny personally I very much doubt he and his helper monkeys allowed the ad to run purely for the few measly quid they would have been paid for it. I'm sure 'someone' would have weighed up the potential damage to the site from any backlash. If money were the main concern I'd say letting the ad run would be a huge risk.
On reflection I'm inclined to think there's more to it than simply accepting revenue from an advertiser although the ultra-cynical part of me is whispering "But what if they let the ad run knowing it would generate debate and more hits on the site?". Damn my overactive imagination
Ryanair will continue to screw you into the ground unless YOU do something about it. Your call.
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assymetric thrust - what you believe is your opinion.i think that you are wrong and we will change things.please do not make assumptions about the pilot demographic,lumping groups together will nilly.i for a long time thought in a group context and i was proven wrong.this about influencing the democratic wish of every individual pilot.education as to the long term picture so to speak.remember it takes approximately 6 months or less for people to have their eyes opened.what is happening is at grass roots level and very slow,but better slow and methodical than fast and foolish.this is a long term project and it may well get worse before it gets better.when you hit rock bottom,there's only one way to go.because of threat and intimidation,we are not allowed to be conspicious,but we are here.
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I have to agree with you though - I think that it needs to be done in order to stop this errosion into our lives, and it does have to an entirely grass roots way of going about it.
And I am very glad to see that finally action is being taken. It is long overdue and hopefully, will bring about a change for the better. Anybody who can stand up to the ideas and workings of MOL has my full support.
However, my point was more along the lines of: if people joining the airline as flight crew were shown what a Union could do for them and the better interests of everybody in the airline, then the union is likely to be much more successful.
And long may your actions continue (anon. of course!!!) - change will happen eventually.
And I am very glad to see that finally action is being taken. It is long overdue and hopefully, will bring about a change for the better. Anybody who can stand up to the ideas and workings of MOL has my full support.
However, my point was more along the lines of: if people joining the airline as flight crew were shown what a Union could do for them and the better interests of everybody in the airline, then the union is likely to be much more successful.
And long may your actions continue (anon. of course!!!) - change will happen eventually.
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is it really 80% fail rate on ryr selection?
emptycruise - assuming the base you're talking about is the rear admirals previous quaters, it was my understanding that the negotiations have been left now until the pilots go back to ryr with what they want, and it doesn't look like that will happen... do you know something i don't about a potential conclusion? pm if you can with any info
all the best,
b bear
emptycruise - assuming the base you're talking about is the rear admirals previous quaters, it was my understanding that the negotiations have been left now until the pilots go back to ryr with what they want, and it doesn't look like that will happen... do you know something i don't about a potential conclusion? pm if you can with any info
all the best,
b bear
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I can't confirm the fail rate for the cadet entry program, but it certainly was an 80% rejection rate for jar25 and direct entry captains a while ago.
I am told there is also a ban on any crew returning if they leave.
I think all of this accounts for a lot of the slagging off the company gets on these forums. Lots of rejected, disgruntled people!
I am told there is also a ban on any crew returning if they leave.
I think all of this accounts for a lot of the slagging off the company gets on these forums. Lots of rejected, disgruntled people!
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the reason for posting on here is to try and educate some of those who may still think fair treatment is present at all airlines.at ryanair it is not.ballsout - where do you pluck your figure of 80% from.that is total b*ll***s and you know it.i assume you have taken into account those who the compan thought may be able to think for themselves and were rejected in the event they may become troublemakers or thos ewho simply did not have the cheque book ready to hand.the group from what i can see holds the sole requirement for a job in ryanair.
from what i can see the rejects are the lucky ones and the disgruntled are those who joined fr under false promises and bull****.those who now see that they have and continue to be lied to.ballsout - your last post is nothing but supposition and conjecture.
from what i can see the rejects are the lucky ones and the disgruntled are those who joined fr under false promises and bull****.those who now see that they have and continue to be lied to.ballsout - your last post is nothing but supposition and conjecture.
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Grim, I would say the same about your post.
As far as i am aware, the only ones who have to pay for interview and sim asesmant are the cadets. Jar 25 and expeirenced captains do not pay any more. Experienced captains are also offered type rating courses paid for by the company. They also get paid from day 1. Yes, the rejection rate was 80% not that long ago. As the market is cooling down, i expect it may even be higher now.
As for as cadets go, i dont know the figure, i agree it is probably nothing like 80% as they pay for it all themselves. They are probably more like an 80% success rate, but the risk is all theirs. If they don't make the grade, they can be choped at any time with no loss to the company. Bad i know, but the choice is theirs.
The majority of new recruits just now seem to be cadets, most new captains internal promotions.
As far as i am aware, the only ones who have to pay for interview and sim asesmant are the cadets. Jar 25 and expeirenced captains do not pay any more. Experienced captains are also offered type rating courses paid for by the company. They also get paid from day 1. Yes, the rejection rate was 80% not that long ago. As the market is cooling down, i expect it may even be higher now.
As for as cadets go, i dont know the figure, i agree it is probably nothing like 80% as they pay for it all themselves. They are probably more like an 80% success rate, but the risk is all theirs. If they don't make the grade, they can be choped at any time with no loss to the company. Bad i know, but the choice is theirs.
The majority of new recruits just now seem to be cadets, most new captains internal promotions.
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I was an f/o and capt in Ryanair. Generally had a good run and a good time, but a failure rate of 75% does surprise me, if its true. The reason it surprises me is that for every good f/o I flew with, I flew with twice as many average or truely awful ones, and these were quite common unfortunately.
Maybe the company should reject some of the guys they currently have flying for them, Ps; that goes for some of the Capts too when I was an f/o there!
Some of the great guys and very good pilots that were there, that I knew have left. The good ones that stay for other reasons, well.. the company simply doesn't deserve them.
I'm not an FR basher, like I said I had a good time, but I'm glad I've left all that whining and back stabbing behind.
Maybe the company should reject some of the guys they currently have flying for them, Ps; that goes for some of the Capts too when I was an f/o there!
Some of the great guys and very good pilots that were there, that I knew have left. The good ones that stay for other reasons, well.. the company simply doesn't deserve them.
I'm not an FR basher, like I said I had a good time, but I'm glad I've left all that whining and back stabbing behind.
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A claim of a 75% rejection rate is lie, simple as that. Ryr are scraping the barrel for the desperate, those that nobody else will take. I echo Morning Glory's sentiments that is a large amount of dross in RHS.
What Ballsout means is that there should be a 75% rejection rate, but there is not. Because if there was there wouldn't be enough pilots.
Remember, normal rules don't apply at ryr. Anyone else facing a pilot shortage would up the T&C's to attract more and better candidates. Ryr simply lowers the standards required.
God help us all when the barrel scraped end up in the LHS, which they will with the relaxation of standards required to get there.
What Ballsout means is that there should be a 75% rejection rate, but there is not. Because if there was there wouldn't be enough pilots.
Remember, normal rules don't apply at ryr. Anyone else facing a pilot shortage would up the T&C's to attract more and better candidates. Ryr simply lowers the standards required.
God help us all when the barrel scraped end up in the LHS, which they will with the relaxation of standards required to get there.
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Camelhair you talk absoulte *~#!, as some one who Failed the selection at Ryanair I do not think your opinion counts! There are plenty of excellent experienced pilots and cadets at Ryr, to say they are scraping the barrel is rubbish. If you are joining as a cadet how much experience/skill do you expect a recruit/cadet to have? Im sure your not the best FO your Turbo prop company has ever employed(and im not saying your the worst) its all about learning.
just my thoughts................
just my thoughts................
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Remember, normal rules don't apply at ryr.
Due to very poor oil market assessments Ryanair is for 97,5 % unhedged for the next financial year and oil price is currently $99.44. At their current hedged price ($65 untill 1-4-'08), fuel cost are approx. 39% of their total operating costs. At an assumed average price of $110 for 2008, fuel costs will be in the region of 62% of their total operating costs (!).
Even Ryanair can't dodge this bullet, I don't think we will see any profit this year (understatement).
Last edited by saccade; 19th Feb 2008 at 18:57. Reason: wording
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75% it is! They are not scraping the barrel. Most of the guys and gals I fly with at Ryanair are in fact very good. I have flown for several major airlines over the years and I would say. The standards at Ryanair are every bit as good, or better than I have seen elsewhere.
The company does not seem to have any shortage of crews just now, If anything, It is overcrewed just now so they can afford to be choosey.
The company does not seem to have any shortage of crews just now, If anything, It is overcrewed just now so they can afford to be choosey.