EasyJet Holding Pool

[angelorange]

Have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Portside.

It is those with existing priviledge and BALPA who have allowed management to do as they please.

CTC/Flexi cadets are now suffering similar outcomes with other airlines like TCX.

Without a fight, it may not be long before we see NSF's BBC link (re: Captains in parking lot lifestyles) come to STN, LTN and GAT.

[Superpilot]

Have to say Portside you've said what I was about to say but couldn't quite control my anger so stopped typing.

NSF, I'm one of those who respects you dearly but please tell us why this outrage isn't being looked at by BALPA. Have EZ's Balpa CC not even raised it?

[Doug the Head]

Excellent way to put it Portside!

Unfortunately Norman was too focused on preaching orange soothing words of moderation during the good years (which are clearly behind us) Any determination/cohesion among the pilot corps has been eroded and has allowed management to set the stage for the T&C's you are witnessing now.

So as a new tactic, he has now focused his attention on advising pilots from other airlines on contractual issues and what those pilots should do in order to protect his T&C's.

My personal view is that Astraeus are a two-bit company with two-bit management whose possible success is a threat to our whole industry. I frankly do not want Astraeus and their fellow travellers to succeed - I wish to seem them well out of the Airbus market. They have nothing to add to our industry and have done a great deal to destroy people's futures. I genuinely feel sorry for the unemployed - but not sorry enough to tell them to take these jobs.

[Banzai Eagle]

DOUG
You permanantly seem to have it in for NSF. As an interested outsider I've always had the view his posts are straight down the line, neither crew or Company minded. Or in the world outside yours, where we are grateful for our jobs, worried about colleagues job losses, bills not being paid etc - a realistic view on life.

[Akrapovic]

Some disillusioned types here . . .

I'm somewhat surprised at the reaction to NSF's comments - do you guys think that airlines OWE you a living??

It's called a recession - it's not the first and it won't be the last. . . .

[Doug the Head]

Banzai, well, although I (obviously!) don't agree with most of Norman's arguments, but at least he does provide intelligent arguments and facts in order to build his case, which is probably why I enjoy debating with him. We just have different interpretations of those facts.

Sure, sometimes our posts might get a bit heated, but I think we always try to stick to the facts and try to counter each other's arguments, rather than throw mud. This is contrary to people who tell me to 'stop moaning' and 'just shut up' because they don't want anyone to pop their bubble and/or they don't have any valid arguments.

Like it or not, but most of the things I predicted a few years ago are now rapidly becoming reality, and (for once! ) I agree with Norman that things will become a whole lot worse before they get better!

I hope Norman and I can say that we 'agree to disagree.'

[AF jockey]

Only tried to cheer you up a bit...

I do believe though that traffic will peak up steeply soon. Not tomorrow surely but in a couple of years.

One question that pops up is why we Europeans cannot reproduce such a model as the southwest one. There's always that trend of walking on people's heads by reducing costs at the hiring stage. Training cheap, hiring always cheaper.

[BoeingOnFinal]

A couple of questions:

Are anyone in the situation that they are CTC Wings ATP/Cadets and have completed their promised 6 month of employment, and are in the holding pool? How is the TR kept current, and at what cost to the individual?

The third lot are the ex-ATP self-sponsored type rating guys who did 150 hours flying with us last year at their own expense.

I was under the impression that the AQC was self-sponsored, and that you are payed during the TR and line training. Is this not correct?

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Portside,

Why dont you approach BALPA and offer to set up the Flexi-wings Company council? Then BALPA can represent you with your employer. Then maybe when your employer rents you out like a cheap whore to my employer you can stop dragging down the industries T's and C's and also stop wanting other people to tidy up the bed that you have made for yourself by accepting such a stupid scheme in the first place.

If people didn't accept this crap and stopped being "so grateful" to be sitting in an airbus then we wouldn't be in this mess.

Get some self respect and a Spine before you start asking others to clean up your own mess!

[PPRuNeUser0178]

PS, I have also dissagreed with NSF in the past, but after your little rant I wouldn't be surprised if he just kept any info he gets to himself in the future.

He is trying to help you guys, why he should bother now, I don't know

[Doug the Head]

Chicken or the egg?

Get some self respect and a Spine before you start asking others to clean up your own mess!

Hmmm... Who is spineless here?

1) Could it be the spineless EZY pilots (with a fixed contract and union representation) allowing their colleagues to be exploited in such a way by their company?

or perhaps,

2) The 'spineless' cadets (without any contract/leverage/union and thus in an extremely vulnerable situation) starting a scheme under, back then, favorable conditions in the hope of a career as a pilot?

This 'everybody fend for themselves' mentality (something I've also unfortunately witnessed in NSF's rant against Astraeus) is the crux of the problem in the decay of T&C's. Everybody expects 'the other guy' to do the dirty work in order to protect the T&C's of the entire industry. Do you really expect a fair and good contract for yourself if you treat your fellow pilots like this?

[PPRuNeUser0178]

The cadets are in a vulnerable position because they chose to put themselves there. No Cadet this year was given the impression that they would be employed beyond winter and yet they still took it.

If people would not accept these schemes then the airlines would be forced to do things properly, but cadets dont stand together and say No in the same way EZY BALPA members don't stand together and say No over piss takes like the crew food and roster disruption. Pilots don't stand together, end of. I know, I have done a vouluntry BALPA role and the most support you get is at pay talks, me me me me me me.

Many people think the guys takingthe flexi wings **** are prostituting themselves and helping to under value us a profession, how could you convince them to Stop "allowing" the cadets to be abused in the way in which they volunteer to be?

Serioulsy, why don't they ALL join BALPA and FORCE Balpa to form a CTC company council? This could be done in just the same easy way that I ALLOW pilots to be treated like this.

It's not fair, it's not nice but it's life in aviation at the moment, with self serving pilots ( ALL of us - TRE's to Cadets ) and opportunistic management on the other side looking for weaknesses to exploit, ANYONE signing up to Flexi wings is a weakness and WILL be exploited. And in doing so they are undermining T's and C's for those of us allready here, if they won't help themselves then why should anyone else.

A bit of leadership from BALPA would go a long way here........................

Serioulsy, a CTC company council is urgently required to attack the cancer at source, because by the time it has spread to the line it is too late.

[Portside]

Eazydriver,

Without wanting to wage a verbal war with you or NSF I will make one thing very clear MY AIRLINE DOES NOT OR WILL NOT EMPLOY Flexi wings CTC cadets as fill-ins for full time Pilots. That was made very clear when the poor guys were finished last year!!! The CC went in very clearly and stated the feeling amongst the membership to management. So your little ASS?U?ME ption, we haven`t done anything, is quite clearly wrong and now closed.

If you are, as your Ident suggests an Ezy Pilot, it is you and those predominatley CTC Pilots from 18 months ago who are on full contracts who should now be negotiating through your CC for the company to employ only full time pilots. Not only CTC cadets, but BA, Virgin, Zoom, Silver Jet etc... Or is it, I`m alright while this situation of part time employee`s remains, they won`t get rid of me syndrome.

Lest we in the airline industry go back to the 1930`s (before my time, before you snipe), when it was the Norm` for a man to have had to stand outside the factory / dock gates and wait for the management to agree a days pay. MOL, WW, RB, AH, and the like, would I`m sure love that. WOULD YOU standing at the departures desk license in hand ??

Yes you are now fortunate to have a job. Lets see what happens in the not to distant future when the christians get thrown to the lions!!! Things will get better. Whether there is full time pilot work given E/Jets employment practice / model is another matter.

I`ve made my point. This is not a personal attack, so please read the post properly, I have no axe to grind with you or NFS. Just stating a position. I feel you guys at easy are in a good position to stop this erosion, before it is well and truely out of hand, this on behalf of the industry before it becomes the norm`.

Going to bed, been a loooong day.
Portside.

[THRILLSEEKER]

There have been 11 cadets join Easyjet since last December on the Boeing of which I am one of them. We have joined under the 'standard wings' cadet route and therefore have been told all along that there may/could/should be a job for us. We are not 'Flex Crew' and so we do not get paid sector pay like they do in the 6 month probation period. It does however seem like we are being treated as 'Flext Crew' and in that way I feel that we are being abused by Easyjet.

I am not prostituting myself to Easyjet, I have been offered the standard route that should give me a contact. This looks highly unlikely again this year as we have been asked to work for 2 months as 'Flexi Crew' at the end of our 6 month till the end of October, in that time we will get full pay as per contract pilot. It still stands to be seen what will be offered to us over the winter and next summer.

EVERY CTC cadet IS in BALPA, as far as I am aware, and I know that BALPA are trying to do their best for us. I would be interested to hear about a CTC company council, is this possible?

BALPA are putting together a campaign to highlight the situation of new starters being abused by airlines in an attempt to bring the issue to the forefront of public knowledge, I am not sure what good this will bring, but at least it's a start.

[Portside]

A CTC BALPA CC. Now get real man!! They can`t even pay for a coffee, let alone 1% of a wage they never get, because IT ALL GOES TO THE HSBC, if you didn`t know.

Yes they took the dream as you most probably did, and like thousands before you. But that is not a reason to suggest they have made there beds now lie in it. I am flabergasted you would challenge there interlect in such a way as to suggest they knew what they were getting into.

As the thread is about the hold pool. WHAT HOLD POOL??? `cause he has the kind of mentality you will be working with. Now that is personal!!!

Portside

[P1 Forever]

Okay.

So whats the future then?

Will they ever take on guys as DEP who have worked up the ladder as instructors, turboprop flying etc...or will it just be a constant stream of cadets from CTC and the only way into the company is through CTC aviation?

P1.

[ballyboley]

Its funny how people abuse Ryanair for poor contracts, this whole easy/CTC scheme seems way worse than alot of the Ryanair contractors are on. Its also worrying that people are still willing to sign up to these things. I quote "There may/could/should be a job for us" is NOT a job!
I know everyone wants a flying job but it really seems people are just willing to pay whatever it takes to get flying an airplane. Its not how it should be! I admit I'm probably not much better paying for a type rating but its long been paid back by the fact I'm actually flying and getting paid for it rather than the other way around.
Where's it all going to end up? Type Rating and 500hours to the highest bidder?!

[PPRuNeUser0178]

If they are all in BALPA, then having some sort of CTC BALPA representation will not cost them a penny more. It may require someone with some balls to actually go to BALPA and volunteer to do something to get the ball rolling. Whinging to current EZY BALPA members to stick their necks out on your behalf when most of them wont stick it out on their own agenda WILL get you no where. You WILL get all the sympathy in the world, that will not change anything. BALPA is it's members and EZY's members are among the most apathetic bunch I've ever come accross. BALPA needs charasmatic leadership, someone who touches a cord with the members and makes them realise their strength and worth, this is a deep routed BALPA/EZY problem and an area where I have dissagreed strongly with NSF in the past on, but even he cannot deny the facts, our %membership always lets us down, Ballot return rates are embarrassing, and this year we even allowed Summer only commands, something that those of the membership who bothered to vote, actually voted NO to, that is what the status quo of the current leadership and pilot run CC leads us to and that is all we can expect if nothing changes. That is BALPA in EasyJet. You honestly think that that kind of membership can improove T's and C's for cadets that are not employed by the company we negotiate with? If it's EZY BALPA support for your cause you want then if you all made a stand and demanded action from BALPA directly with CTC then you might see something, but be clear, EZY BALPA will give you nothing more than sympathy and moral objections, because thats all they CAN give you. Both on industrial relations and membership will.

Portside, you seem to think that I persoanlly do not want to see the Cadets helped, nothing could be farther from the truth, but I am a realist who used to be an idealist, a bit of BALPA repping did that to me. We are masters of our own demise, I joined EZY about 6 years ago from a Turbo prop airline under the TRSS cancer. The day I accepted that, I helped seal the fate for the next generation, just as those who accept todays cancer of flexi-wings are doing for tomorows generation. If the EZY CC said to me tomorrow, to go to the picket line and stay there until every Cadet who is NEEDED to fly the line is put on a proper contract of employment I'd be first in line, how ever I think you will find I am in the minority, and there is also a difference between those who say they will stand on a picket line and those who actually WILL. I have done it before, I would do it again, I think you will find a lack of moral fibre among our members if push ever came to shove, as it almost did with CV in his first year here, he won, we lost and he has the scent of our blood like a wounded deer ever since.

Only one thing will stop this - supply and demand, and that ain't about to happen soon. Unless we all grow a Spine together and stop the rot, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Of course a restructured BALPA might help also, I mean BALPA really gets things done fast, see how quickly we have fixed the crew food farse? Or how our rostering agreements are in concrete and not abused?

(foot note for the usual "don't knock the CC, they do a great job in their own time bla bla bla.........." brigade - I know the CC work their cotton socks off, I know what they achieve with the given resources and time is comendable, but for the size of EZY and the amount BALPA gets from us, we deserve more and should get more - The CC are to be applauded for preventing things more than anything else, if it wasn't for them we would all be singing from Leo Hairy camels twats song sheet by now )

A bigger, more organised stick is required, plus the will to use it, after all thats how EZY played it when AH took the leash off CV.

Or we could stick with the status quo that NSF and others all seem so content with..................................................

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Sing a song of sixpricks.

we would all be singing from Leo Hairy camels twats song sheet by now

Would that be a victory march or a funeral dirge, ezydriver?

When young Mr. Brady takes over at year's end from your Mr. Harrison, we'll see who's singing a happy tune then. Your BLAPA is as useless as tits on a bull. It is in the very nature of it so to be. That you don't freely admit it, even though, clearly, you know it, is the truly amusing part.

Really, Norman! Get your ducks in a row, would you?

Your pal,

Leo.

[Right Way Up]

Or as about useful as tits on pprune. Plenty of them!