Ryanair Pilot Shortage
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would love to know more about this money invested in Ryanair pilots by Ialpa/Balpa you talk of.
I stand by my assertion that only an idiot would accept €56k for a jet command.
The problems you are hinting at in your short-sighted post are wider reaching than the relationship between the 1500 pilots and the Ryanair board of directors.
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Yes, coffee, tea and bring your own plastic bottle to fill up with water from a tap in the crewroom (I kid you not, I work for RYR !).
Oh, and uniform, medicals, car parking, transport and hotel costs for simulator, id pass, pension plus a few other things I have probably forgotten about.
Visual Calls It's very difficult to collectively show some backbone when the pilot workforce consists of so many small incohesive groups. The old adage of "divide and rule" has been exploited very successfully by the Ryanair management .....
Oh, and uniform, medicals, car parking, transport and hotel costs for simulator, id pass, pension plus a few other things I have probably forgotten about.
Visual Calls It's very difficult to collectively show some backbone when the pilot workforce consists of so many small incohesive groups. The old adage of "divide and rule" has been exploited very successfully by the Ryanair management .....
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Don't get me wrong RYR have a lot to answer for but there are many companies doing exactly the same.
I would like to know how much money Ialpa/Balpa have invested in RYR Pilots and where?
I am an incredibly grateful member of REPA, but I believe that union recognition has no chance of propogation - we all know why.
E56k for a command? I have no idea. I thought it was £56k (in the UK)
Water would be nice especially considering the new security measures invoked - I had my peach yoghurt taken from me the other day....
Visual calls - going back to earlier post describing me et al as simpletons I could name half a dozen airlines that have had serious incidents within the last month. Who do you work for?
For the record I dont drink the water from the aircraft boilers - it makes my stomach hurt.
I would like to know how much money Ialpa/Balpa have invested in RYR Pilots and where?
I am an incredibly grateful member of REPA, but I believe that union recognition has no chance of propogation - we all know why.
E56k for a command? I have no idea. I thought it was £56k (in the UK)
Water would be nice especially considering the new security measures invoked - I had my peach yoghurt taken from me the other day....
Visual calls - going back to earlier post describing me et al as simpletons I could name half a dozen airlines that have had serious incidents within the last month. Who do you work for?
For the record I dont drink the water from the aircraft boilers - it makes my stomach hurt.
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I can confirm that the new contract is for €58,500. I have seen the contract of one who has been forced onto it. Important distinction, no one accepts anything in this airline.
New Captains are on 90% salary for 12 months (Another deal that was forced through under suspect circumstances in places) This equals €52.650 annually. I would also state that the "Pay deal" only stated 90% of Captains salary, but those Salarys aren't published or available to anyone to see.
It has gotten to the point where it's hardly worth staying. As an experienced F/O I have my C.V out with a wide range of operators.
New Captains are on 90% salary for 12 months (Another deal that was forced through under suspect circumstances in places) This equals €52.650 annually. I would also state that the "Pay deal" only stated 90% of Captains salary, but those Salarys aren't published or available to anyone to see.
It has gotten to the point where it's hardly worth staying. As an experienced F/O I have my C.V out with a wide range of operators.
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Even worse....€52 and a half................
This is when things are good.
You also have the option of taking a contract position and screw your fellow workers.
Only good if you don't pay your tax...................
This is when things are good.
You also have the option of taking a contract position and screw your fellow workers.
Only good if you don't pay your tax...................
Last edited by easymoney; 30th Oct 2007 at 13:10.
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I have seen the contract of one who has been forced onto it.
You don't want to work for appalling money, you don't go for command. Simple.
If everyone says no, you'll get a proper salary.
And forget the sanctimonious divide and conquer crap, that only works because you allow it. Some of you I have no doubt are well intentioned, but regrettably most Ryanair pilots are responsible for allowing the divide and conquer to happen. The will to stand together is all that's required.
Take responsibility for the mess you're creating, the sooner you learn to do so, the sooner you will stop shafting everyone else.
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Visual Calls, My initial reaction to reading your post is, in the words of our hallowed leader to the EU, Foxtrot Oscar. However, I am going to educate you instead.
Believe me, if Ryanair could literally hold a gun to peoples head I don't think they would rule it out as a tactic. When I use the word forced I want you to close your eyes and concentrate for a moment. Seriously: just play along for a moment. I want you to associate the word with blackmail, coercion, trickery.
I want you to imagine the 200 Hr cadet with €100,000 in debts. He passes his interview and is told he is being taken on the basis of a permanent employee, is told that a job awaits him at the other side of his type rating. Type Rating, Circuits, and two months of line training is finished. He gets an interview to sign his contract of employement (Yes, the first one even after all that) where he is told, that "we" are sorry but the only positions we have are as BrooKfield Contractors. Take it or leave it.
Now you may be a wealthy person Visual Calls but at that point with €130,000 committed, Ryanair have these Cadets over a barrel. The fact is that Cadets will sell their soul four a job, a few might not, but they are the exception. What they do is dishonest.
Another scenario. Command upgrade candidate. Passes through all the hoops. Goes for same interview as above. It's announced to him that the Captain salary at his base has now been lowered, to say, €52K. Candidate has a wife, two kids and a dog and cat based at a far flung base in Europe, settled in with a house.
If either of them refuse, out they go on the street and Ryanair wheels in another Brazilian on a Visa and an IAA validated conversion of their licence, or another low houred cadet.
I'm not asking for your sympathy, but these are the realities that we face here. I am an active IALPA member and have been trying with all the energy I have to get people to get involved in REPA. However, when you get a mix of nationalities, bases, permanent and contract, it is nigh on impossible to get people to act in a unified manner. Which enables Ryanair to continually erode our pay at what I estimate to be 10%-15% a year.
Forced how? Someone hold a gun to his head and tell him he will be a captain?
I want you to imagine the 200 Hr cadet with €100,000 in debts. He passes his interview and is told he is being taken on the basis of a permanent employee, is told that a job awaits him at the other side of his type rating. Type Rating, Circuits, and two months of line training is finished. He gets an interview to sign his contract of employement (Yes, the first one even after all that) where he is told, that "we" are sorry but the only positions we have are as BrooKfield Contractors. Take it or leave it.
Now you may be a wealthy person Visual Calls but at that point with €130,000 committed, Ryanair have these Cadets over a barrel. The fact is that Cadets will sell their soul four a job, a few might not, but they are the exception. What they do is dishonest.
Another scenario. Command upgrade candidate. Passes through all the hoops. Goes for same interview as above. It's announced to him that the Captain salary at his base has now been lowered, to say, €52K. Candidate has a wife, two kids and a dog and cat based at a far flung base in Europe, settled in with a house.
If either of them refuse, out they go on the street and Ryanair wheels in another Brazilian on a Visa and an IAA validated conversion of their licence, or another low houred cadet.
I'm not asking for your sympathy, but these are the realities that we face here. I am an active IALPA member and have been trying with all the energy I have to get people to get involved in REPA. However, when you get a mix of nationalities, bases, permanent and contract, it is nigh on impossible to get people to act in a unified manner. Which enables Ryanair to continually erode our pay at what I estimate to be 10%-15% a year.
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" ......and forget the sanctimonious divide and conquer crap, that only works because you allow it. Some of you I have no doubt are well intentioned, but regrettably most Ryanair pilots are responsible for allowing the divide and conquer to happen.
Tell that to the long queue of young eager SSTR cadets waiting to beat a path to Ryanair's door, and take a seat in a shiny new 737-800. Just take a look at other threads on this forum to see what I mean .......
PS Carmoisine has put it very succinctly !
Tell that to the long queue of young eager SSTR cadets waiting to beat a path to Ryanair's door, and take a seat in a shiny new 737-800. Just take a look at other threads on this forum to see what I mean .......
PS Carmoisine has put it very succinctly !
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First, congrats to Carmoisine for (a) getting is so right, and (b) taking the trouble to spell out to those who will not listen what they should take very seriously. Those seem to include JW411 who knows "a lad (from the local flying club) who is earning €75,000 a year gross as a Ryanair F/O". Great news for the lad from the local flying club, but not a good guide to life in Ryanair.
While it could well be true JW411 it does not mean that the latest basic for a Ryanair captain is not €58,600 (the correct figure according to REPA which talks of referring actual documents). Of course that is the "basic" - but the year one figure is 90% of that - yes it is even less! Maybe that answers your question "Where on earth does this figure of €56,000 for a Ryanair captain come from?".
As for "On a previous Ryanair forum, a TRE admitted to earning €160,000 (£108,000)" ... well even if true it is so far from the reality for most FR pilots that it serves its purpose to have it quoted here from time to time. You seem willing to believe it it is real reflection of life in Ryanair, so it served its purpose for you!
The problem JW411 is that there are so many contracts, so many fudges and angles and pilots willing to do different deals that you never know anything in Ryanair with certainty. Well, apart from one thing, that is: each year the average pilot pay goes down. The rate of decline is determined by the number of pilots willing to allow themselves to be entrapped in circumstances in which they feel they have to say yes.
But, increasingly, people have little sympathy for the lot of them as they create their own mess. It is the spread of the disease to other other airlines that is the real problem.
While it could well be true JW411 it does not mean that the latest basic for a Ryanair captain is not €58,600 (the correct figure according to REPA which talks of referring actual documents). Of course that is the "basic" - but the year one figure is 90% of that - yes it is even less! Maybe that answers your question "Where on earth does this figure of €56,000 for a Ryanair captain come from?".
As for "On a previous Ryanair forum, a TRE admitted to earning €160,000 (£108,000)" ... well even if true it is so far from the reality for most FR pilots that it serves its purpose to have it quoted here from time to time. You seem willing to believe it it is real reflection of life in Ryanair, so it served its purpose for you!
The problem JW411 is that there are so many contracts, so many fudges and angles and pilots willing to do different deals that you never know anything in Ryanair with certainty. Well, apart from one thing, that is: each year the average pilot pay goes down. The rate of decline is determined by the number of pilots willing to allow themselves to be entrapped in circumstances in which they feel they have to say yes.
But, increasingly, people have little sympathy for the lot of them as they create their own mess. It is the spread of the disease to other other airlines that is the real problem.
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But, increasingly, people have little sympathy for the lot of them as they create their own mess. It is the spread of the disease to other other airlines that is the real problem.
As for 200hr SSTR guys and other operators following suit...monkey see, monkey do...and there's a lot of monkeys out there it seems!
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Why don't RYR pilots emmigrate to other airlines?? Is there a contract trick whereby pilots can't leave??
Shouldn't the growth in aviation industry improve T&Cs?? I remember from 2001 to 2004, it was sooo hard to get a pilot job, that it was somehow understandable that T&C were getting worse and many airlines were firing pilots or cutting wages... But nowdays things are better, there are new airlines, more airplanes, etc... How come conditions continue to get worse with time... I thing that now we are in advantage, we are needed for the airlines to grow, and we must apply some pressure...
What I don't get is why young pilots insist on paying for getting a job (Type rating and all) and accept being treated so badly... I know it's a nice job, but come on, ITS A JOB, we are soupossed to get paid for it and not the opossite...
Shouldn't the growth in aviation industry improve T&Cs?? I remember from 2001 to 2004, it was sooo hard to get a pilot job, that it was somehow understandable that T&C were getting worse and many airlines were firing pilots or cutting wages... But nowdays things are better, there are new airlines, more airplanes, etc... How come conditions continue to get worse with time... I thing that now we are in advantage, we are needed for the airlines to grow, and we must apply some pressure...
What I don't get is why young pilots insist on paying for getting a job (Type rating and all) and accept being treated so badly... I know it's a nice job, but come on, ITS A JOB, we are soupossed to get paid for it and not the opossite...
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Is there a contract trick whereby pilots can't leave??
Imagine getting a job elsewhere. Your hand your notice in. You were bonded for a type rating when you joined as a Direct entry Captain. You served the bond time, though and you give the required three months notice. Long story short, Ryanair says there is a typing error in your contract and the bond was for a longer period then you thought. We are taking your last two months salary, we want the balance of the bond money, our legal fees, and because you are leaving before the end of the bond we have to hire a contractor to cover your flights and the minimum period we can hire him for is 6 months, so you have to pay us his salary for that period too. And our legal fees (As it usually gets to that stage when it goes that far). Most non Union protected Pilots have to cough up the cash for the sake of a quiet life.
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Originally Posted by Carmoisine
Long story short, Ryanair says there is a typing error in your contract and the bond was for a longer period then you thought.
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Ryanair says there is a typing error in your contract and the bond was for a longer period then you thought.
Unless you've signed a new contract with typos corrected, you'll win any claim for compensation. Nice little (or big) leaving bonus!
Of course, the best trick in the first place is to get the milkman, or the dog, or the neighbours five year old to sign the bond. None of my bonds have ever had my signature on them.
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Quote:
Is there a contract trick whereby pilots can't leave??
Funny you should mention that! Here is an example that has happened in FR:
Imagine getting a job elsewhere. Your hand your notice in. You were bonded for a type rating when you joined as a Direct entry Captain. You served the bond time, though and you give the required three months notice. Long story short, Ryanair says there is a typing error in your contract and the bond was for a longer period then you thought. We are taking your last two months salary, we want the balance of the bond money, our legal fees, and because you are leaving before the end of the bond we have to hire a contractor to cover your flights and the minimum period we can hire him for is 6 months, so you have to pay us his salary for that period too. And our legal fees (As it usually gets to that stage when it goes that far). Most non Union protected Pilots have to cough up the cash for the sake of a quiet life.
If its not true then you've just exposed yourself to a libel suit!
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Ex Copper by any chance?
However the practice that carmosine has alluded to, if true, is not legal and should be investigated.
Although it might sound strange, there are large numbers of FR pilots who stay because they are quite simply well inside their comfort zone and just can't be asked to put up with the upheaval of moving.
I left them nine years ago but regularly bump into guys I flew with; despite the fact that they whinge and moan about how awful it is, none of them have seriously considered leaving, either because they believe they will take a drop in salary or because it will involve a change of base.
ZeBedie's observations apply here - until this year we haven't hired one single FR pilot at my base, and only a small handful throughout the rest of our network.
I left them nine years ago but regularly bump into guys I flew with; despite the fact that they whinge and moan about how awful it is, none of them have seriously considered leaving, either because they believe they will take a drop in salary or because it will involve a change of base.
ZeBedie's observations apply here - until this year we haven't hired one single FR pilot at my base, and only a small handful throughout the rest of our network.