Life in Monarch Air 2000 Airtours JMC
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Life in Monarch Air 2000 Airtours JMC
I currently work as a captain for a regional jet operator. But would like to know what the inside story is in regard to quality of life in the above mentioned companies.
Salary info I can get from BALPA but what life is like in regard to :-
1. Hours flown per month
2, Days worked per month
3, How much night flying
4, Standby periods and callout periods
5, How many days away from home ...
6, What bases are available
Generally quality of life issues more important than jumping ship to earn a few thousand more or less.....
Anyone out there from Monarch,Air2000,JMC,Airtours out there tell is what the lifestyle is really like ...
Cheers ....
Salary info I can get from BALPA but what life is like in regard to :-
1. Hours flown per month
2, Days worked per month
3, How much night flying
4, Standby periods and callout periods
5, How many days away from home ...
6, What bases are available
Generally quality of life issues more important than jumping ship to earn a few thousand more or less.....
Anyone out there from Monarch,Air2000,JMC,Airtours out there tell is what the lifestyle is really like ...
Cheers ....
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Well I can give you an idea of Air 2000. Generally its not as bad as people think. They still have this outdated view of the holiday airlines. In reality we doa mixture of scheduled and charter flights and in winter ad hocs as well, which adds to the interest.
For specifics I can give you an idea based on you joining as an FO on the short haul fleet.
1. In summer, between 60-90 hours a month. Usually around 70-80 hours. In winter about 15-30 hours a month unless you are off on contract somewhere.
2. Days worked - we normally get a minimum of 8 days off a month, average of 9 maybe 10. There is a contractual minimum of 104 days off per year (not including leave, etc.)
3. On average 3 to 4 nights per month in summer, one or two over the season in winter. It will vary depending on that year's program and also your base.
4. Standbys are 8 hours. The company will sometimes try and get you to do a flight after the end of your standby. We do have a scheduling agreement to cover such matters. Callout is a standard hour and a half. There are also rules about how far away you can live (based on mileage, but basically same as callout). Don't get called out that often though. I get called out maybe 5 times a year or less.
5. Again depends on base and fleet. Talking standard short haul, in summer, one month you might not be away at all, other times you might get 5-10 days away (usually stopping in UK). I probably average one nightstop a month of up to 3 days.
6. We have bases all over the UK, from Bristol to Manchester to Glasgow to London.
Pay isn't that bad. Compared to BA you'd probably do better over 10 years to be with Air 2000. Time to command is very good, starting salary around £38k plus allowances. Other benefits too.
If you go on the B757/767 fleet you do a mixture of long and short haul. In winter the 757s do VIP round-the-world trips too. There are also a few ad hoc contracts, based abroad, for anything from one month upwards.
For specifics I can give you an idea based on you joining as an FO on the short haul fleet.
1. In summer, between 60-90 hours a month. Usually around 70-80 hours. In winter about 15-30 hours a month unless you are off on contract somewhere.
2. Days worked - we normally get a minimum of 8 days off a month, average of 9 maybe 10. There is a contractual minimum of 104 days off per year (not including leave, etc.)
3. On average 3 to 4 nights per month in summer, one or two over the season in winter. It will vary depending on that year's program and also your base.
4. Standbys are 8 hours. The company will sometimes try and get you to do a flight after the end of your standby. We do have a scheduling agreement to cover such matters. Callout is a standard hour and a half. There are also rules about how far away you can live (based on mileage, but basically same as callout). Don't get called out that often though. I get called out maybe 5 times a year or less.
5. Again depends on base and fleet. Talking standard short haul, in summer, one month you might not be away at all, other times you might get 5-10 days away (usually stopping in UK). I probably average one nightstop a month of up to 3 days.
6. We have bases all over the UK, from Bristol to Manchester to Glasgow to London.
Pay isn't that bad. Compared to BA you'd probably do better over 10 years to be with Air 2000. Time to command is very good, starting salary around £38k plus allowances. Other benefits too.
If you go on the B757/767 fleet you do a mixture of long and short haul. In winter the 757s do VIP round-the-world trips too. There are also a few ad hoc contracts, based abroad, for anything from one month upwards.
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Mr Benn thanks for the information very interesting and useful. One final question do you see yourself at Air2 in long term or do you still feel the urge to move on. Is it a career company or is it a stepping stone company ?
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Just a note to correct the observation about pay. There are lots of things to consider , pension, overtime, allowances, etc . Needless to say....over as little as six years,, you are far better off as a DEP in BA than in the LHS of a UK charter carrier.
Clearly this means that there is absolutely no comparison for F-O scales.
Clearly this means that there is absolutely no comparison for F-O scales.
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In response to the question as to whether Air 2000 etcare career Companies I can definately say yes. The carriers you mention such as Airtours JMC Monarch are all -in my book- 'League Division 1. As a 40 year old Captain on the B757 I am very content. Most people seem to join with about 2000-4000+ hours so are generally in the Mid 30s bracket. As I joined at 36 and with a Command at 40 it would make no sense to look elsewhere. Further more the flying is interesting with lots of varied routes and approaches/ destinations + ETOPS flying also available. In addition as mentioned above we have such things as a schduling agreement which includes (ideally) no start before 9am after a day off. The package also includes Private Health, PHI and the Comapny put 15% of gross salary into the pension (The Pilot puts in a further 5)This is only a personal observation but expect that it applies to most. 
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: SAM 2M ]
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: SAM 2M ]
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Answers to a couple of questions.
Is it a career? Well, seems to depend on who you know and what squadron you were in! Only joking....
Time to command is very good, the company is expanding and basically people are on the short list for less than a year.
There are also plenty of line training and sim trainer jobs available as well as other things like tech instructors.
Most pilots who get into management seem to go upwards quite well and quite quickly, if that is what you want.
As for comparison with BA, well, over six years, if you were with Air 2000 you would spend a year, maybe two, in the RHS on £38,000 a year basic (increments each year) plus allowances, etc. then move into the LHS where you'd start on around £60k basic. The Captains salary rises to around £81k plus there are % add ons for training people.
I believe that DEPs at BA now start on a salary much lower than ours, but that information may be wrong. Times that by six years (you won't get a command at BA in that time) and then compare what you have earnt.
Of course, in time, I guess you'll overtake your Captains salary at Air 2000 if you were at BA.
Depends what you want.
First Officers and Captains have left to go to other companies, including GO and BA as well as others.
But people will always apply to BA thinking the grass is always greener. From the feedback I get I have to say I am not totally convinced. Really it comes down to, do you want to work for a huge company where you don't know anyone and you are just a number of do you want a more personal touch, flying with people you know, etc.?
Is it a career? Well, seems to depend on who you know and what squadron you were in! Only joking....
Time to command is very good, the company is expanding and basically people are on the short list for less than a year.
There are also plenty of line training and sim trainer jobs available as well as other things like tech instructors.
Most pilots who get into management seem to go upwards quite well and quite quickly, if that is what you want.
As for comparison with BA, well, over six years, if you were with Air 2000 you would spend a year, maybe two, in the RHS on £38,000 a year basic (increments each year) plus allowances, etc. then move into the LHS where you'd start on around £60k basic. The Captains salary rises to around £81k plus there are % add ons for training people.
I believe that DEPs at BA now start on a salary much lower than ours, but that information may be wrong. Times that by six years (you won't get a command at BA in that time) and then compare what you have earnt.
Of course, in time, I guess you'll overtake your Captains salary at Air 2000 if you were at BA.
Depends what you want.
First Officers and Captains have left to go to other companies, including GO and BA as well as others.
But people will always apply to BA thinking the grass is always greener. From the feedback I get I have to say I am not totally convinced. Really it comes down to, do you want to work for a huge company where you don't know anyone and you are just a number of do you want a more personal touch, flying with people you know, etc.?
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SAM 2m and Mr benn good information and good to see people happy in their work. Money is important but also quality of life as most guys in mid 30's have families/wives/girlfriends ( but hopefully not all of the previous gets far too expensive). What are basings available, standby periods, bidding for leave, are u able to get Xmas off and at least wife birthday and anniversary.
Money is important but you can never buy a good roster the chance of xmas off and some weekends now and then coupled with a nice base and good standby period.
I believe as companies start to employ the mid 30's more mature guy these issues start to become more important. Interested on what you guys have to say on the non cash benefits..
Money is important but you can never buy a good roster the chance of xmas off and some weekends now and then coupled with a nice base and good standby period.
I believe as companies start to employ the mid 30's more mature guy these issues start to become more important. Interested on what you guys have to say on the non cash benefits..
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Dear Mr Benn , Bounce;
I had a command on a 757 and worked with a fantastic bunch of pilots at my old charter employer. The training was superb and I loved every minute of it! The routes were interesting and I was proud of the company.
BUT don't forget that when working for a charter Co you get worked flat out each Summer, you will miss every Wedding/BBQ etc etc. Rostering will use CAP 371 as a target and you may fly 100hrs (including knackering Night LPA,TFS,DLM) + in a calendar month.
My employer paid me nothing for working on a day off - and they always expected me to go up to 3 hours into discretion.The staff travel was very poor indeed. ( Since joining BA I have flown Club class longhaul many times!)
By posting this I'm not knocking the very experience that I benefitted from; (charter - Air 2K JMC, Monarch et all) I'm simply trying to put the other side of the argument!
Believe me ... with overtime ( perhaps 1 day a month), the pension (it is worth as great deal to me to be able to retire at 55), roster stability + fairness etc I find I'm far far better off at BA.
PS Friends of mine achieved EOG and BHX commands within 4 years! I know it will be longer in the future - but it's worth waiting for.
If you are <38 don't beleive every thing you read on PPRUNE... find someone who works for BA (preferably a recent DEP)and ask them!
Don't disregard it.
I had a command on a 757 and worked with a fantastic bunch of pilots at my old charter employer. The training was superb and I loved every minute of it! The routes were interesting and I was proud of the company.
BUT don't forget that when working for a charter Co you get worked flat out each Summer, you will miss every Wedding/BBQ etc etc. Rostering will use CAP 371 as a target and you may fly 100hrs (including knackering Night LPA,TFS,DLM) + in a calendar month.
My employer paid me nothing for working on a day off - and they always expected me to go up to 3 hours into discretion.The staff travel was very poor indeed. ( Since joining BA I have flown Club class longhaul many times!)
By posting this I'm not knocking the very experience that I benefitted from; (charter - Air 2K JMC, Monarch et all) I'm simply trying to put the other side of the argument!
Believe me ... with overtime ( perhaps 1 day a month), the pension (it is worth as great deal to me to be able to retire at 55), roster stability + fairness etc I find I'm far far better off at BA.
PS Friends of mine achieved EOG and BHX commands within 4 years! I know it will be longer in the future - but it's worth waiting for.
If you are <38 don't beleive every thing you read on PPRUNE... find someone who works for BA (preferably a recent DEP)and ask them!
Don't disregard it.
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What is right for one individual is not necessarily right for another. I joined BA from one of the leading charter outfits mentioned here and have no regrets.
I am one of those early 30s chaps with wife and kids and so quality of life is right up there on the priority list. Having control over my life is more important than an early command.
It would be boring if everyone wanted the same!
I am one of those early 30s chaps with wife and kids and so quality of life is right up there on the priority list. Having control over my life is more important than an early command.
It would be boring if everyone wanted the same!
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I beg to differ with "knows"
I've got friends in that outfit that have had to take second jobs to make ends meet. In the outfit I work for command can come in 2 - 3 yrs, captains' package around 70-80k with pay, allowances and free shares plus a cracking pension. We have plenty of cammanders in their early 30s with scope for advancement into training and management positions. Compare that the 39 year old popping out to job no 2 after his days away on his B777!
I've got friends in that outfit that have had to take second jobs to make ends meet. In the outfit I work for command can come in 2 - 3 yrs, captains' package around 70-80k with pay, allowances and free shares plus a cracking pension. We have plenty of cammanders in their early 30s with scope for advancement into training and management positions. Compare that the 39 year old popping out to job no 2 after his days away on his B777!
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I've been in one of the above mentioned charter companies for over ten years and i have to say that my winters have consisted of about one flight a month and the summers generally around the seventy hour per month mark.Total hours a year less than 500 which from previous threads i dont think can be matched in BA.This may not be the norm. in charter but it is in my experience.
Command after 5 years,better pension than BA,BUPA and loss of licence insurance.Salaries also very good.Flown 4 types in this company with some very interesting routes.Interesting people that you actually get to know.
Staff travels pretty crapp but otherwise i,d recommend it.
Command after 5 years,better pension than BA,BUPA and loss of licence insurance.Salaries also very good.Flown 4 types in this company with some very interesting routes.Interesting people that you actually get to know.
Staff travels pretty crapp but otherwise i,d recommend it.
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I have found the roster stability to be generally pretty good. Home most nights. Rarely get roster changes unless some major problems, like Spaniards on strike or 3 aircraft tech in one day, but that rarely happens!
Average 500-600 hours per year flying. If you do more than 800 hours a year they pay extortionate overtime rates so will generally choose to stop you flying rather than pay. So you can pretty much guarantee you won't do more than 800 hours a year. Sectors are generally 2-5 hours on short haul, usually fly an out and back.
I understand your concerns, and although there will be events you miss, there are ways round it, certainly in Air 2000.
There are basings all over the country, where are you looking for? Generally they are pretty good at getting you into the base you want and keeping you there.
Standbys are, as previously mentioned, 8 hours long with a one and a half hour call out. Depends on base, but generally called out maybe up to 5 times per year. All standbys are home standbys, and as long as you are contactable (eg. mobile phone) and are within an hour and a half of the airport you're OK.
We have a system whereby you get 12 Requested Days Off (RDOs) per season. That is 12 in summer, 12 in winter. If you want a weekend day you have to use 2 RDOs, ie. you cannot only book at Saturday you have to book the Sat and Sun. There is a limit of 3 RDOs per month and a limit on weekends, I think its 6 weekend days per season. But you get rostered days off at weekends sometimes too. You also get Personal Days (PDOs) which can be wife's birthday and anniversary and they will try and keep them free for you, but for a guarantee you are better using the RDOs.
As for leave, there is a rotating seniority system. So you take it in turns to get first pick. You cannot bid for the same weeks two years in a row. You can bid for either Xmas or New Year leave and you only work one or the other. You can also volunteer to work one or the other thereby getting the other one off. Once you know people in the company you can sometimes arrange swaps too.
Average 500-600 hours per year flying. If you do more than 800 hours a year they pay extortionate overtime rates so will generally choose to stop you flying rather than pay. So you can pretty much guarantee you won't do more than 800 hours a year. Sectors are generally 2-5 hours on short haul, usually fly an out and back.
I understand your concerns, and although there will be events you miss, there are ways round it, certainly in Air 2000.
There are basings all over the country, where are you looking for? Generally they are pretty good at getting you into the base you want and keeping you there.
Standbys are, as previously mentioned, 8 hours long with a one and a half hour call out. Depends on base, but generally called out maybe up to 5 times per year. All standbys are home standbys, and as long as you are contactable (eg. mobile phone) and are within an hour and a half of the airport you're OK.
We have a system whereby you get 12 Requested Days Off (RDOs) per season. That is 12 in summer, 12 in winter. If you want a weekend day you have to use 2 RDOs, ie. you cannot only book at Saturday you have to book the Sat and Sun. There is a limit of 3 RDOs per month and a limit on weekends, I think its 6 weekend days per season. But you get rostered days off at weekends sometimes too. You also get Personal Days (PDOs) which can be wife's birthday and anniversary and they will try and keep them free for you, but for a guarantee you are better using the RDOs.
As for leave, there is a rotating seniority system. So you take it in turns to get first pick. You cannot bid for the same weeks two years in a row. You can bid for either Xmas or New Year leave and you only work one or the other. You can also volunteer to work one or the other thereby getting the other one off. Once you know people in the company you can sometimes arrange swaps too.
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Mr Benn first of all good to see someone being really positive about their company.
I am looking at bases in southern half of UK e.g gatwick etc ...
So on an average flying month how many days are committed to work, given i suppose you could end up doing 2 sectors that total 6-7 hours. But seems everybody is very positive about air2000 seems like a great outfit.
I am looking at bases in southern half of UK e.g gatwick etc ...
So on an average flying month how many days are committed to work, given i suppose you could end up doing 2 sectors that total 6-7 hours. But seems everybody is very positive about air2000 seems like a great outfit.
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knows
'Needless to say....over as little as six years,, you are far better off as a DEP in BA than in the LHS of a UK charter carrier'
However you look at it, you are incorrect. The only way to get good cash with BA is longhaul, and the only way to get a longhaul command is to spend (optimistic) 5+ years in the RHS. Game, set and match...
'Needless to say....over as little as six years,, you are far better off as a DEP in BA than in the LHS of a UK charter carrier'
However you look at it, you are incorrect. The only way to get good cash with BA is longhaul, and the only way to get a longhaul command is to spend (optimistic) 5+ years in the RHS. Game, set and match...
Dear Bounce
If you are in the UK charter market and flying one trip a month in the winter season
I would be more than a little concerned that
your company is not making any money - my
'quiet season ' averages 30-40 hours per
month notwithstanding the fact that I have
to take the majority of my leave in the winter not to mention SEP, Tech courses etc.
Anybody else underworked in the quiet half
of the year ?
If you are in the UK charter market and flying one trip a month in the winter season
I would be more than a little concerned that
your company is not making any money - my
'quiet season ' averages 30-40 hours per
month notwithstanding the fact that I have
to take the majority of my leave in the winter not to mention SEP, Tech courses etc.
Anybody else underworked in the quiet half
of the year ?
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Air 2000 are OK, like most companies it has its weaknesses. Its best if you are out of the main bases, that is LGW and MAN if you want to avoid politics etc.
Bases would be LGW, STN, BHX and we are currently also doing W patterns through LUT, don't know if it'll ever be a base though.
Air 2000 is I believe the biggest charter company at LGW, I don't think you'd have a problem getting based there.
Average days off per month I would say is 9.
Unfortunately, even when they don't need you, they would rather put you on standby (even when there are no flights from your base that day/time) than give you a day off.
In fact they often roster a number of you on the same standby "just in case".
They are days at home, but not free from duty as there is the theoretical possibility of being called out. In summer, probably around 3-4 standbys per month, in winter depends on your base and fleet. If you are on the Boeing there are lots of winter contracts and so its a different kettle of fish, if you are on the Airbus nothing happens in winter so you'll have most of the week at home.
There is a very strong military feel/ attitude within the company, that is its main minus point. If you ever read the article about Korean Air a couple of years back, who used exclusively ex-military pilots until they realised what a mistake it was, then you'll know what I am talking about. It is starting to filter down a bit now, with pilots being taken on from a range of backgrounds/ hours, which is great.
Other than that, the usual one sidedness and lack of management negotiation when it comes to anything that might benefit the pilot (and possibly reduce the director's bonuses).
I reckon its no better or worse than most other airlines of its size.
Bases would be LGW, STN, BHX and we are currently also doing W patterns through LUT, don't know if it'll ever be a base though.
Air 2000 is I believe the biggest charter company at LGW, I don't think you'd have a problem getting based there.
Average days off per month I would say is 9.
Unfortunately, even when they don't need you, they would rather put you on standby (even when there are no flights from your base that day/time) than give you a day off.
In fact they often roster a number of you on the same standby "just in case".
They are days at home, but not free from duty as there is the theoretical possibility of being called out. In summer, probably around 3-4 standbys per month, in winter depends on your base and fleet. If you are on the Boeing there are lots of winter contracts and so its a different kettle of fish, if you are on the Airbus nothing happens in winter so you'll have most of the week at home.
There is a very strong military feel/ attitude within the company, that is its main minus point. If you ever read the article about Korean Air a couple of years back, who used exclusively ex-military pilots until they realised what a mistake it was, then you'll know what I am talking about. It is starting to filter down a bit now, with pilots being taken on from a range of backgrounds/ hours, which is great.
Other than that, the usual one sidedness and lack of management negotiation when it comes to anything that might benefit the pilot (and possibly reduce the director's bonuses).
I reckon its no better or worse than most other airlines of its size.
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Spent a few years on turboprops averaging 720 hours a year. Joined Monarch nearly four years ago and haven't managed to exceed 600 hours a year yet, for roughly two and a half times the old salary. The maximum number of hours I have ever accrued, in 28 days, at MON is 73 in August 2000. If the lifestyle was anything like that suggested on some of the postings I think I would have left several years ago.