Asiana Contracts - Stay Clear!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Fl390
Asiana Contracts - Stay Clear!
Fellows,
Unless your family is starving and you have no options at all, do a favor for yourself: don't even bother to apply for such an outfit.
There is no professional respect at all: evaluation system is a joke; there is an arrogant military attitude all the times; NOBODY speaks a decent English - "training flights" are all done with old guys that keeps silent all the time and when disagree with something just mumbles something barely resembling English or just takes deep breaths like an infuriated alligator.
They fail or pass depending on their humor for the day, never on technical grounds.
There are some horror stories that even BEATING and shouting at Korean first-officers are a regular practice on recurrent simulator sessions.
The mix of subservient local F/O with foreign Capt are potentially dangerous in case something goes wrong. Their moral are the worst possible, as they were supposed to be upgrading to captain at this time.
But local authorities just doubled the necessary flight time recently. So you have a bunch of terribly frustrated guys in their late 40s or 50s looking at their foreign skippers and even the airline like enemys...remember Egyptair...
The list of problems goes much longer: ATC is a mess, there are two big airports with huge traffic surrounded by at least 4 active military AFBs! There are an accident waiting to happen.
A stable roster is a dream: you are constantly on a standby status, everything can change at the very last moment.
No surprise FAA downgraded them!
And Seoul, well...is Seoul. Stinky, polluted, incomprehensible unless you speak Korean. Weather is crazy, expect to be covered by the poisonous Chinese yellow powder that mixed with snow or rain make up for an interesting effect on cars paint...imagine on you.
Too unfortunate some good old eastern european fellows have to be on their knees for this crap!
Just think twice.
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: 767driver ]
Unless your family is starving and you have no options at all, do a favor for yourself: don't even bother to apply for such an outfit.
There is no professional respect at all: evaluation system is a joke; there is an arrogant military attitude all the times; NOBODY speaks a decent English - "training flights" are all done with old guys that keeps silent all the time and when disagree with something just mumbles something barely resembling English or just takes deep breaths like an infuriated alligator.
They fail or pass depending on their humor for the day, never on technical grounds.
There are some horror stories that even BEATING and shouting at Korean first-officers are a regular practice on recurrent simulator sessions.
The mix of subservient local F/O with foreign Capt are potentially dangerous in case something goes wrong. Their moral are the worst possible, as they were supposed to be upgrading to captain at this time.
But local authorities just doubled the necessary flight time recently. So you have a bunch of terribly frustrated guys in their late 40s or 50s looking at their foreign skippers and even the airline like enemys...remember Egyptair...
The list of problems goes much longer: ATC is a mess, there are two big airports with huge traffic surrounded by at least 4 active military AFBs! There are an accident waiting to happen.
A stable roster is a dream: you are constantly on a standby status, everything can change at the very last moment.
No surprise FAA downgraded them!
And Seoul, well...is Seoul. Stinky, polluted, incomprehensible unless you speak Korean. Weather is crazy, expect to be covered by the poisonous Chinese yellow powder that mixed with snow or rain make up for an interesting effect on cars paint...imagine on you.
Too unfortunate some good old eastern european fellows have to be on their knees for this crap!
Just think twice.
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: 767driver ]
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
From: UK
767driver, could you please explain this comment? <The mix of subservient local F/O with foreign Capt are potentially dangerous in case something goes wrong.>. I was under the impression that foreign captains have been introduced by many Asian airlines as a way of bringing in modern skills and very high experience coupled with a knowledge of human factors. I don't think the foreign captains shout and beat the Korean F/Os! They bring skill and experience and respect- they have a lot to teach if anybody is listening!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Fl390
NOTSO,
Sorry for not being clear enough. Actually there are Korean checkpilots, all ex-military, that bears in their majority a behavior absolutely away from anything resembling CRM or any modern cockpit management techniques. Their attitude is frankly hostil all the times. Of course there are some (scarce) exceptions.
But this men usually make any sim session or checkride a true nightmare, even beating (!!!) on Korean F/Os, aside their obvious communication skills deficit.
The morale among expats and even Koreans is the worst possible. Unfortunately, sooner or later Korea civil aviation will be making headlines again...unless some more drastic measure (an FAA ban, for instance) shake things enough over there.
Sorry for not being clear enough. Actually there are Korean checkpilots, all ex-military, that bears in their majority a behavior absolutely away from anything resembling CRM or any modern cockpit management techniques. Their attitude is frankly hostil all the times. Of course there are some (scarce) exceptions.
But this men usually make any sim session or checkride a true nightmare, even beating (!!!) on Korean F/Os, aside their obvious communication skills deficit.
The morale among expats and even Koreans is the worst possible. Unfortunately, sooner or later Korea civil aviation will be making headlines again...unless some more drastic measure (an FAA ban, for instance) shake things enough over there.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
From: UK
76, thank you for your response. It is known that Koreans have a different way of working, but I think you will find the inflow of foreign pilots will bring in new attitudes and ways of working. It will be very beneficial to some of the old Korean attitudes which will be increasingly seen as out of date as the dinosaurs. I think there will be great benefit having foreigners flying in Korean aeroplanes for a few years and they will not take any of that nonsense!
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: hoschton, GA, USA
Presently being *happily* married to a Korean woman, and although Caucasian myself, I do speak Korean and have a fairly good grip on Korean culture, I think 767 might be right on....
Too long to explain here, but CLR will never beat 2000 years of Confucianism. I think there are Korean pilots who are just as good as western pilots in a single seat cockpit, but I don't ever see the possibilities of and older Korean pilot working well with a younger Korean pilot in airline cockpit except on very rare individual pairings.
I think that that kind of CLR behaviour would be thought by Korean peoples as offensive and as disrespectful to the older/ordinate pilot. It would be also considered anti-social if seen by others.
From my experience Korean men are extremely proud..vain....almost narcissitic. Pride may go before the fall, but it can also kill a lot people in the back of the airplane....
Hanguk saram e Mian hamnida, kuritchi man igot Na nun sangat kaminida, chigum na nun arrouse tangshim anshim ops hada...
(Korean peoples I am sorry, but this is how my thinking goes...now I know peace you will do without....)
PS. After two marriages to American woman, I find I do prefer my Korean wife.....But after living with three Oriental women in my life I firmly state only a ignorant fool will believe Oriental women are submissive and obedient......
Too long to explain here, but CLR will never beat 2000 years of Confucianism. I think there are Korean pilots who are just as good as western pilots in a single seat cockpit, but I don't ever see the possibilities of and older Korean pilot working well with a younger Korean pilot in airline cockpit except on very rare individual pairings.
I think that that kind of CLR behaviour would be thought by Korean peoples as offensive and as disrespectful to the older/ordinate pilot. It would be also considered anti-social if seen by others.
From my experience Korean men are extremely proud..vain....almost narcissitic. Pride may go before the fall, but it can also kill a lot people in the back of the airplane....
Hanguk saram e Mian hamnida, kuritchi man igot Na nun sangat kaminida, chigum na nun arrouse tangshim anshim ops hada...
(Korean peoples I am sorry, but this is how my thinking goes...now I know peace you will do without....)
PS. After two marriages to American woman, I find I do prefer my Korean wife.....But after living with three Oriental women in my life I firmly state only a ignorant fool will believe Oriental women are submissive and obedient......
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Fl390
A-V,
ahn yo ah seyo!
Kam samnida for your support.
You got straight to the point, the core of their intracockpit attitude is based on exactly this set of behavioral and cultural aspects: vanity, pride, hierarchy, seniority and blind obediency request.
This has nothing to do with a safe present cockpit crew work requeriments. This explains their civil aviation safety records being the worst of the world. It takes more than fancy new aircraft and airports to have a safe air transport industry. Have to kind of break out of some of this confucionism...
It seems that they are increasingly getting in trouble: in the last couple of years, as there were a badly requeriment of experienced expats, a foreign captain was very welcome, but as the time passed and they got union and build some experience their attitude is becoming more and more hostile. This because Korean pilots think now they are in condition to take the duties and get rid off expats. But this hardly can be true as, for instance, their absolutely mistaken evaluation system demonstrates. All checkpilots over there are Koreans and there is not a reasonable criteria for checkrides. They failed several very experienced and qualified captains for nothing, while passed some others whose performance is below average, either in their countries and during training in Korea.
Bear in mind that before joining this outfit all of them passed a 3 day screening tests and at least that 2,3 months "training" I mentioned before. They took their families to Seoul, in the belief they were joining a serious professional commitment and, at the end of all this were irresponsabily "failed" and subsequently fired by a Korean checkpilot with less than half the average expat PIC flight time.
Just imagine the personal life disruption this guys suffered! We are talking about professionals with more than 10,000 hr command time, with mostly impeccable records.
As for Korean girls, yes, there are a lot of very gorgeous cabin crew over there, smart and nice. Korean people in general are gently, cooperative and welcoming.
Too bad their air transport industry is mismanaged like this.
ahn yo ah seyo!
Kam samnida for your support.
You got straight to the point, the core of their intracockpit attitude is based on exactly this set of behavioral and cultural aspects: vanity, pride, hierarchy, seniority and blind obediency request.
This has nothing to do with a safe present cockpit crew work requeriments. This explains their civil aviation safety records being the worst of the world. It takes more than fancy new aircraft and airports to have a safe air transport industry. Have to kind of break out of some of this confucionism...
It seems that they are increasingly getting in trouble: in the last couple of years, as there were a badly requeriment of experienced expats, a foreign captain was very welcome, but as the time passed and they got union and build some experience their attitude is becoming more and more hostile. This because Korean pilots think now they are in condition to take the duties and get rid off expats. But this hardly can be true as, for instance, their absolutely mistaken evaluation system demonstrates. All checkpilots over there are Koreans and there is not a reasonable criteria for checkrides. They failed several very experienced and qualified captains for nothing, while passed some others whose performance is below average, either in their countries and during training in Korea.
Bear in mind that before joining this outfit all of them passed a 3 day screening tests and at least that 2,3 months "training" I mentioned before. They took their families to Seoul, in the belief they were joining a serious professional commitment and, at the end of all this were irresponsabily "failed" and subsequently fired by a Korean checkpilot with less than half the average expat PIC flight time.
Just imagine the personal life disruption this guys suffered! We are talking about professionals with more than 10,000 hr command time, with mostly impeccable records.
As for Korean girls, yes, there are a lot of very gorgeous cabin crew over there, smart and nice. Korean people in general are gently, cooperative and welcoming.
Too bad their air transport industry is mismanaged like this.
Joined: Jul 1998
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Hochiminh, Vietnam
Dear Notso,
Your talking about culture diffrences here, and not about experienced expat. Captains trying to give good 'adivce' to Korean co-pilots.... the fact will never change unless the Koreans, or others in asia, have the same safety culture as we do, which would mean that they (pilots) would be better to brought up (in the US or UK for example from an early age!)and after complete their pilot training. Of coure this absurd! But it will always be the same with the 'loss of face' airlines who when they **** up hate to, or never, admit it!
What I mean is: that the 'tapes' will always be the same even if you change the VCR... if you can get my jift.
Your talking about culture diffrences here, and not about experienced expat. Captains trying to give good 'adivce' to Korean co-pilots.... the fact will never change unless the Koreans, or others in asia, have the same safety culture as we do, which would mean that they (pilots) would be better to brought up (in the US or UK for example from an early age!)and after complete their pilot training. Of coure this absurd! But it will always be the same with the 'loss of face' airlines who when they **** up hate to, or never, admit it!
What I mean is: that the 'tapes' will always be the same even if you change the VCR... if you can get my jift.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
From: UK
Yes, we owe it to our passengers to provide a safe culture on the Flight Deck where 2 happy, well paid, content, experienced pilots keep them safe and do not allow cultural differences, animosities or foolish pride kill them!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: over the ocean
Everybody knows there are many cultural differences between Asian and Western, it's a fact. But, I'd like to know: Do you believe that it is true that only Koreans are wrong when they don't accept foreingners working for their airlines? Would it be different if, for example, I were an African or a Latin American (without prejudice, please) and get a job with a major American or British airline, for instance? I am not sure that I could survive for a long time, and of course safety would be jeopardized, as well. In a other way, but, it would...
And how would you feel if a Korean or any non native pilot get a job in your airline to fly as wide-body captain?
Ok, ok, I know...Koreans need to improve their aviation safety a lot, however we must be honest with ourselves, and how we would behave, if the conditions were inverted.
And how would you feel if a Korean or any non native pilot get a job in your airline to fly as wide-body captain?
Ok, ok, I know...Koreans need to improve their aviation safety a lot, however we must be honest with ourselves, and how we would behave, if the conditions were inverted.
Trash du Blanc
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
From: KBHM
Actually, I've been in that situation. We had a Brasilia captain at ASA who was expat Korean. Hell of a guy, and as safety-oriented as any of us.
There was a funny story about him - someone asked him when he was a new-hire how he liked the company. "It o.k, but, 'Chuck White' suck!" Chuck White was a senior captain.
What's wrong with Chuck White, he was asked.
"NO NO NO! Check - ride! Check - ride!"
There was a funny story about him - someone asked him when he was a new-hire how he liked the company. "It o.k, but, 'Chuck White' suck!" Chuck White was a senior captain.
What's wrong with Chuck White, he was asked.
"NO NO NO! Check - ride! Check - ride!"
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: hoschton, GA, USA
Downfourgreen, I think I've been in that situation here in the US as a white male....watching females and minorities get hired over me...
I recall seven years ago as a 727 Captain, flying with a 25 year girl with 1200 hours, and an extremely patient ex eastern guy on the panel.
When I tried to feel out the First Officers backround, she said "I've earned my job here, I flew night freight for a year."
The Engineer said "Too bad my two tours in Vietnam didn't help me get a job......."
I recall seven years ago as a 727 Captain, flying with a 25 year girl with 1200 hours, and an extremely patient ex eastern guy on the panel.
When I tried to feel out the First Officers backround, she said "I've earned my job here, I flew night freight for a year."
The Engineer said "Too bad my two tours in Vietnam didn't help me get a job......."
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: kuala lumpur, malaysia
Of Course unless you:
1) Are disgruntled with your present employer...
2) Get paid peanuts compared to what you " might " get in Asiana..
3) Cannot even get a job with decent company back home/ or your major carriers..
4) Love snow, ice as compared to sunshine for most of the year...
5) Can't do without Kimchi...or may be Pochintang....
Sometimes I wonder why so many from North America, Europe, Ozz are so happy ( so they told me...) here in Kimchiland and dozens are trying to beat the 31 Dec deadline for KAL. MH seconded a bunch of Captains to Asiana on the 7s and 744 . Maybe I shud check with them.
PS: If it doesn't work for you , dont think too much about it...just stay away.
1) Are disgruntled with your present employer...
2) Get paid peanuts compared to what you " might " get in Asiana..
3) Cannot even get a job with decent company back home/ or your major carriers..
4) Love snow, ice as compared to sunshine for most of the year...
5) Can't do without Kimchi...or may be Pochintang....
Sometimes I wonder why so many from North America, Europe, Ozz are so happy ( so they told me...) here in Kimchiland and dozens are trying to beat the 31 Dec deadline for KAL. MH seconded a bunch of Captains to Asiana on the 7s and 744 . Maybe I shud check with them.
PS: If it doesn't work for you , dont think too much about it...just stay away.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
From: HERE AND THERE
Please read carefully the previous posts and the thread "Asiana and Korean......" on the main bulletin board.
And believe me: NOBODY is happy with that outfit. Most expats simply do not have alternatives, as their airlines bankrupted.
the moral is the worst possible, the environment is hostil, anti-CRM and, put in a single word, D A N G E R O U S.
It is much more interesting getting peanuts on a decent and fair way...
And believe me: NOBODY is happy with that outfit. Most expats simply do not have alternatives, as their airlines bankrupted.
the moral is the worst possible, the environment is hostil, anti-CRM and, put in a single word, D A N G E R O U S.
It is much more interesting getting peanuts on a decent and fair way...
