Globespan Capetown Min rest
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Globespan Capetown Min rest
Just got wind of what 'appears' to be a well substantiated rumour that the same 15hr min rest capetown is being planned !!
I was told by the agency, and assurances from Bob and the dfo that this would not happen again, and was due to a lack of crew and a aircraft rotation problem.
Having operated the min rest before and having never felt so fatigued and ill afterwards I will be refusing point blank to have anything to do with it, I think I share the opinion of a number/majority of crews and with the absence of a union we need to show some solidarity on this issue. It is totally unacceptable and a very serious threat to flight safety.
Thoughts?
I was told by the agency, and assurances from Bob and the dfo that this would not happen again, and was due to a lack of crew and a aircraft rotation problem.
Having operated the min rest before and having never felt so fatigued and ill afterwards I will be refusing point blank to have anything to do with it, I think I share the opinion of a number/majority of crews and with the absence of a union we need to show some solidarity on this issue. It is totally unacceptable and a very serious threat to flight safety.
Thoughts?
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Do it, there was a 10 hour goa at my company at another base, I believe a lot of the crew went fatigued down route and this year it has changed to three days for that base...
it's the only way to make these companies change, hit them where it hurts- in their wallets!
it's the only way to make these companies change, hit them where it hurts- in their wallets!
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I think your right it will almost certainly come to crews refusing to do it or going fatigued down route, and probably being threatened with the sack.
The schedule is such that u get to the hotel in the morning and check out in the evening, its noisy and impossible to get proper rest.
In light of the very real claims made about fatgue recently in the media, when will people wake up and listen. I wonder how happy the pax would be if they knew this information?
would be nice to hear from gsm crews about this.
The schedule is such that u get to the hotel in the morning and check out in the evening, its noisy and impossible to get proper rest.
In light of the very real claims made about fatgue recently in the media, when will people wake up and listen. I wonder how happy the pax would be if they knew this information?
would be nice to hear from gsm crews about this.
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May I suggest that the previous description of the hotel does not sound like it falls into the category of 'suitable accommodation'.
It is a long time since I have read the definition of suitable accommodation however it normally makes mention of being quiet and comfortable and where one can control the levels of temperature, light and noise.
i.e. It has air conditioning in an appropriate climate, it has decent curtains and it has adequate soundproofing.
This might be the way to go, min rest might be legal but the hotel might not.
It is a long time since I have read the definition of suitable accommodation however it normally makes mention of being quiet and comfortable and where one can control the levels of temperature, light and noise.
i.e. It has air conditioning in an appropriate climate, it has decent curtains and it has adequate soundproofing.
This might be the way to go, min rest might be legal but the hotel might not.
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I know the hotel should be quiet and at night i'm sure it is as good as any other but try and find a hotel during the day free from noise, almost impossible with housekeeping outside noise, guests checking in, and unfortunately it is the day where we have to rest !
Management will be in for a shock when either they have no crew for this or no crew to bring the aeroplane back!!
Management will be in for a shock when either they have no crew for this or no crew to bring the aeroplane back!!
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I can tell you now I will quite happily fly down to CPT, but guarantee I will be fatigued for the return flight if the schedule remains the same. It just is not safe, and like so many other things in GSM, they will learn the hard way.
Sad but true.
Sad but true.
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Gammon
How do you know you'll be tired or even fatigued. If your tired you might get the best (days) sleep you've ever had and be fit as a fiddle to operate back. If your fatigued then operating down would be a problem?.
The arguments contradict CAA advice on 18-30hr rest periods, it's a complete joke.
That said rather you than me
Good luck
How do you know you'll be tired or even fatigued. If your tired you might get the best (days) sleep you've ever had and be fit as a fiddle to operate back. If your fatigued then operating down would be a problem?.
The arguments contradict CAA advice on 18-30hr rest periods, it's a complete joke.
That said rather you than me
Good luck
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I heard that some relative (female) of someone who owns the company was overheard retorting that she "dosen't want to give the crews a free holliday in CPT". So this typical management bimbo would rather down the aircraft for 15 hrs. in which time it not only could have flown back but done a PMI and back as well! But hey, why listen to the crews who do the job when you can simply believe what you read in the Sun!!
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Spot on Bob.
I'd just love to be in 'Commercial' when the call comes through from the 'new charterer' asking for 'something a bit bigger that can bring pax PLUS palletised stuff from over there to over here' and all 'Commercial' can do is whimper 'Nooo, sorry, our only available aircraft is spending 17 hours on the ground in CPT because we don't want to give our crews anymore time off downroute than the bare legal minimum.
Narrow-minded with short memories that are incapable of learning from hard lessons and blinded with tunnel vision...or are they...?
There has been no word that last years PURGATORY will or will not be repeated this winter. I too had the verbal, off the record assurances from the Flt Ops management that last years slip patterns will NOT be repeated.
We shall wait and see.
I'd just love to be in 'Commercial' when the call comes through from the 'new charterer' asking for 'something a bit bigger that can bring pax PLUS palletised stuff from over there to over here' and all 'Commercial' can do is whimper 'Nooo, sorry, our only available aircraft is spending 17 hours on the ground in CPT because we don't want to give our crews anymore time off downroute than the bare legal minimum.
Narrow-minded with short memories that are incapable of learning from hard lessons and blinded with tunnel vision...or are they...?
There has been no word that last years PURGATORY will or will not be repeated this winter. I too had the verbal, off the record assurances from the Flt Ops management that last years slip patterns will NOT be repeated.
We shall wait and see.
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a 12 hour sector,then minimum rest,the company has to be joking.as a one off due a previous delay,tech problem,then maybe.to roster a scheduled 12 hour flight with minimum rest has to be asking for trouble.no slack built in for unforseen problems and crew dreading the prospect of being rostered to operate the duty.i suggest you make your concerns known to crewing well in advance of the scheduling being decided for the winter schedules.
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A 12 hour sector, I guess 1 hour report, 30 minutes after FDP, = 13.5 hours, a time difference of 1 hour thus no extended rest required thus 13.5 hours would be the required rest and not minimum rest nor the 15 hours as declared at the start of this forum.
Some guys can be their own worst enemies, sure this is a knackering schedule but 'fatigue' can only be declared at the time and some guys are declaring fatigue months in advance for the operator to show to the CAA etc. that this is not 'actual' fatigue.
Some guys can be their own worst enemies, sure this is a knackering schedule but 'fatigue' can only be declared at the time and some guys are declaring fatigue months in advance for the operator to show to the CAA etc. that this is not 'actual' fatigue.
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Phileas,
Your ignorance displayed in your statement is dazzling.
I operated my fair share of the MAN-CPT's and you should read last years posts about this punishing duty, the lack of adequate in-flight crew rest facilities and the fear of fatigue induced 'mishaps'.
On more than one occasion while driving home post duty, I felt myself falling asleep on the M56. After consulting other crew who were equally FATIGUED on subsequent similar duties, we raised our concerns with the management who provided 'Day rooms' in hotels upon arrival at base.
But this doesn't get around the problem of rosterers and the commercial schedule planners repeatedly drawing up new schedules that take the FTL legislation as a GUIDE AND NOT ABSOLUTE LIMITS.
I have never seen so many Captains filing so many Discretion/Reduction of rest reports on almost every flight.
Your 'scenario' of 1 hour report,pre-flight 12 hour flight & 30 mins post flight FDP are fantasist at best and were proven to be unrealistic. Do you really think that things go that well? The reality was, and I hope that the powers that be have learnt lessons, something like this...
Report scheduled 1 hour pre-departure.(Crews more often actually reported at 1.5-2 hours pre-STD. Actual flight time usually 12:15-12:45.
Winter ops' at MAN so frequent 06 departures, low QNH, Anti-ice performance penalties meant some departures had to tech stop on route.
Subsequently departure delayed while op's sorted out where to tech stop, organise and plan tech stop.
Actual time of departure (with or with out slot time fracas) now at busiest time of MAN evening departure rush hour. Probably 45-90 mins late by this stage and airborne knowing that you'll probably be in discretion or definately in disc' if you're tech'ing.
Arrive (eventually) in CPT in early morning rush hour with transport taking on average 35-60 mins to reach hotel.
On average 15-17 hours minimum rest needed (otherwise next FDP needs reducing) against planned rest of your 13.5 hours means the evening rotation back to MAN is already 1.5-3.5 hours late and with any slack built into this 1 aircraft's busy plan, any tech delays accumulate subsequent delays. I think it resulted in the aircraft being almost 30 hours late at one stage. The aircraft's plan for the week was MAN-CPT-MAN-GLA-SFB-GLA-MAN-CPT-MAN-GLA-BFS-SFB-BFS-GLA-MAN. The longest period of time the aircraft had on the ground ahnywhere was CPT- 15 hours, where there are NO crews rested when the aircraft arrives heavily late to take the aircraft prep'd for the next rotation and eat into any delays.
The pressure is on the just operated crew to reduce their rest to nibble at the heavy delays.
Crew (probably reduced or insufficiently rested) board aircraft to hostile pax, for planned 12 hour (realistically 12:15-12:45) night flight back into a winter MAN morning rush hour and subsequent duties such as positioning by scheduled flight to home base (Scotland for some), post flight paperwork...transport to staff car park....drive home on busy motorways while falling asleep.....
P*** poor planning equals P*** poor performance.
Can you see our point, Phileas?
Your ignorance displayed in your statement is dazzling.
I operated my fair share of the MAN-CPT's and you should read last years posts about this punishing duty, the lack of adequate in-flight crew rest facilities and the fear of fatigue induced 'mishaps'.
On more than one occasion while driving home post duty, I felt myself falling asleep on the M56. After consulting other crew who were equally FATIGUED on subsequent similar duties, we raised our concerns with the management who provided 'Day rooms' in hotels upon arrival at base.
But this doesn't get around the problem of rosterers and the commercial schedule planners repeatedly drawing up new schedules that take the FTL legislation as a GUIDE AND NOT ABSOLUTE LIMITS.
I have never seen so many Captains filing so many Discretion/Reduction of rest reports on almost every flight.
Your 'scenario' of 1 hour report,pre-flight 12 hour flight & 30 mins post flight FDP are fantasist at best and were proven to be unrealistic. Do you really think that things go that well? The reality was, and I hope that the powers that be have learnt lessons, something like this...
Report scheduled 1 hour pre-departure.(Crews more often actually reported at 1.5-2 hours pre-STD. Actual flight time usually 12:15-12:45.
Winter ops' at MAN so frequent 06 departures, low QNH, Anti-ice performance penalties meant some departures had to tech stop on route.
Subsequently departure delayed while op's sorted out where to tech stop, organise and plan tech stop.
Actual time of departure (with or with out slot time fracas) now at busiest time of MAN evening departure rush hour. Probably 45-90 mins late by this stage and airborne knowing that you'll probably be in discretion or definately in disc' if you're tech'ing.
Arrive (eventually) in CPT in early morning rush hour with transport taking on average 35-60 mins to reach hotel.
On average 15-17 hours minimum rest needed (otherwise next FDP needs reducing) against planned rest of your 13.5 hours means the evening rotation back to MAN is already 1.5-3.5 hours late and with any slack built into this 1 aircraft's busy plan, any tech delays accumulate subsequent delays. I think it resulted in the aircraft being almost 30 hours late at one stage. The aircraft's plan for the week was MAN-CPT-MAN-GLA-SFB-GLA-MAN-CPT-MAN-GLA-BFS-SFB-BFS-GLA-MAN. The longest period of time the aircraft had on the ground ahnywhere was CPT- 15 hours, where there are NO crews rested when the aircraft arrives heavily late to take the aircraft prep'd for the next rotation and eat into any delays.
The pressure is on the just operated crew to reduce their rest to nibble at the heavy delays.
Crew (probably reduced or insufficiently rested) board aircraft to hostile pax, for planned 12 hour (realistically 12:15-12:45) night flight back into a winter MAN morning rush hour and subsequent duties such as positioning by scheduled flight to home base (Scotland for some), post flight paperwork...transport to staff car park....drive home on busy motorways while falling asleep.....
P*** poor planning equals P*** poor performance.
Can you see our point, Phileas?
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stand up and get tough - hit their wallets
Go sick/fatigue down route and every pilot must back up any other pilot that does this.
We are highly trained professionals not two a penny muppets.
Lets see an end to adverts like Eagle Jet Internation (above?) too....let the airlines pay for their assets (pilots) and then we might see changes.
We are highly trained professionals not two a penny muppets.
Lets see an end to adverts like Eagle Jet Internation (above?) too....let the airlines pay for their assets (pilots) and then we might see changes.
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Pontious,
Please allow me to ensure you that I am far from ignorant regarding what actually happens and that for some 28 years I have not listened to crew feedback regarding 'what really happens' and indeed when I, previously, scheduled crew patterns I would always ask myself 'would I like to do this crew pattern?'.
Now this thread was about a 15 hour rest period in line with CAA CAP371 flight & duty time regulations but your post has moved it along to talking about volunteered increase reporting times, unrealistic flight scheduling and/or headwinds, whether a crew member chooses to drive home or take public transport after work, discretion reports, travelling times to/from hotels which is covered seperately in CAP371, flight delays etc. etc. etc.
You have moved it along totally off the topic to which I previously posted in response to, don't you think the Ops guys in the office have a problem driving home, with the sun in their eyes, after a 12 hours+ nightshift, don't you think that people other than pilots understand these problems, so please don't presume me/us as ignorant simply for pointing out that fatigue needs to be reported as actual fatigue and not 'mouthing off' months in advance.
Please allow me to ensure you that I am far from ignorant regarding what actually happens and that for some 28 years I have not listened to crew feedback regarding 'what really happens' and indeed when I, previously, scheduled crew patterns I would always ask myself 'would I like to do this crew pattern?'.
Now this thread was about a 15 hour rest period in line with CAA CAP371 flight & duty time regulations but your post has moved it along to talking about volunteered increase reporting times, unrealistic flight scheduling and/or headwinds, whether a crew member chooses to drive home or take public transport after work, discretion reports, travelling times to/from hotels which is covered seperately in CAP371, flight delays etc. etc. etc.
You have moved it along totally off the topic to which I previously posted in response to, don't you think the Ops guys in the office have a problem driving home, with the sun in their eyes, after a 12 hours+ nightshift, don't you think that people other than pilots understand these problems, so please don't presume me/us as ignorant simply for pointing out that fatigue needs to be reported as actual fatigue and not 'mouthing off' months in advance.
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NOflyGlobeSpanK
Well also having done the CPT twas ok when we had 3 days there but the min rest very tiring indeed, did one with a relief cojockey who after Id passed Douala southbound informed me he hadnt been line checked yet!!! Ok well thank 
Im out of this crap outfit with its fair share of in most areas of operation.
Hear they sacked some 737 guys after they hit 900 hours, but best of all loadsa 767 guys just bout say bye!!Thats Fossill and his "new" gf Aiken for yaaaaaaaaaa. Go Joe uve no competition.
Im out of this crap outfit with its fair share of in most areas of operation. Hear they sacked some 737 guys after they hit 900 hours, but best of all loadsa 767 guys just bout say bye!!Thats Fossill and his "new" gf Aiken for yaaaaaaaaaa. Go Joe uve no competition.
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there was a similar trip to goa last winter with my company from bhx apparently loads of crews went fatigued and low and behold it has changed this year no more minimum rest goa's for tfly crew!
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Every complaint letter to DFO should be copied to CAA. I was in a continental airline that had an unrealistic schedule. Night out & back to Africa. Lots of discretion & lots of complaints to DFO. No reaction. Company lost contract to a unionised airline. They proved the schedule was unrealistic and refused to do it. Contract returned to original airline with a few days night stop imposed by local AA; no discussion. Point was proven!
However, it brings more into light FTL's. 14hours, no time change, single sector. 15 hours rest; sounds OK. However, if the duty is at night that is something else. If it was a 0800 start finishing at 2200 and starting at 12.00; that's possible occasionally. (be there done that, except worse). However, a 14 hour night duty is not nice and needs more recovery time.
A captain is always allowed to act on own initiative due to Flight Saftey. Do So!
However, it brings more into light FTL's. 14hours, no time change, single sector. 15 hours rest; sounds OK. However, if the duty is at night that is something else. If it was a 0800 start finishing at 2200 and starting at 12.00; that's possible occasionally. (be there done that, except worse). However, a 14 hour night duty is not nice and needs more recovery time.
A captain is always allowed to act on own initiative due to Flight Saftey. Do So!
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You have to question their assessment of their best use of assets...how exactly is leaving the aircraft on the ground for 15 hours with the attendant cost of a hotel for one night deriving a greater profit than keeping it flying with a different crew on the return and the cost of another night or two hotel accomodation?
Some fool running the company is operating on a very thin profit margin if this is the case...!
Some fool running the company is operating on a very thin profit margin if this is the case...!